greece The Greek Economy Thread

[Koro]

"Why is Marxism the one crazy extremist ideology that gets a pass?"

 

That's easy to answer, and Douglas Murray said it best: Marxism never got a Nuremberg trial like Nazism did. There was never a conviction of the Gulag monster criminals. This is why it still gets a pass.

 

 

Nazism/The Nazis got a Nuremberg trial for the ww2/holocaust atrocities, not Fascism because Fascism had little to do with it. The same way that the Bolshevik party should be the ones facing trial for the Gulags, not Marxism/Socialism as a whole.

 

Nazism isn't even a proper political-economic system. Its just a term that comes from the National Socialist party, now banned of course. But it is no harder for a government to introduce a fascist economic system, than it is to introduce a socialist economic system. But both these have been repressed by the capitalist monstrosities of USA and EU since ww2. I don't know any countries that still have fascism and socialism only still exists in Latin America and Asia. Anarchism is also thriving in the state of Somalia.

[Brklyngrk]

The biggest issue in Greece is the lack of jobs and the hurdles that are in place for job creation. Greece is its own worst enemy.  The laws in place do not lend to entrepreneurs which is ironic, due to the fact that every Greek I know in the states has some sort of business.  Most have done relatively well for themselves. Greece has a highly educated population who is pretty internet savvy (I remember reading a survey that stated that Greece had one of the highest internet usage in Europe per person). Why not give them the tools to move forward?

[Lazarus]

Kathimerini has obtained the full proposal submitted by the Greek government to the EU. All 11 pages can be seen here.

http://s.kathimerini.gr/resources/article-files/protasi--2.pdf

[gyros]

The biggest issue in Greece is the lack of jobs and the hurdles that are in place for job creation. Greece is its own worst enemy.  The laws in place do not lend to entrepreneurs which is ironic, due to the fact that every Greek I know in the states has some sort of business.  Most have done relatively well for themselves. Greece has a highly educated population who is pretty internet savvy (I remember reading a survey that stated that Greece had one of the highest internet usage in Europe per person). Why not give them the tools to move forward?

 

The new agreement (Well nothing is official yet) has more taxes for business so it will just get worse.  The solution is jobs, not lifetime free education.

[RED SHERIFF]

That's partly true, however if you stopped pension payments completely doubled VAT and collected more taxes the debt would still be unpayable, its too late for reform now with this much debt, Greece needs to leave the union and single currency otherwise any 'reforms' made will never be enough.

Tsiparas is a sell out he'll concede to what ever he's told to

I really don't understand this point of view, why do you give the big boys a free pass, they are the ones that make the laws and decisions and they are the ones who've done most to put the country in debt in order to feather their own nests. I've listed in previous posts some of their appalling behaviour but no one seems to mind.

 

anti austerity march

 

http://www.commondreams.org/news/2015/06/21/people-will-not-be-blackmailed-thousands-march-athens-against-austerity

another good article

 

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-06-22/greece-capitulates-tsipras-crosses-red-line-will-accept-bailout-extension

 

 

No one is saying corrupt politicians should not be punished...

 

we all applauded Aki and the Thessaloniki Mayoral crew going in for some serious time...

 

the problem I have is that 'Greeks' over simplify the issue....

 

Politicians stealing 100-200 million is wrong, but this theft has not brought Greece to bankruptcy...

there's a false belief that they stole the money therefore I do not get my pension at 47 and now I need to pay more VAT....WRONG

 

Incompetent politicians who did not enforce proper laws, and reform markets 40 years ago, thru fear of upsetting the 'lao' is where it all went wrong... ...the 'lao' demands'...the 'lao ' gets....

 

what will the drachma and bankruptcy bring us?

 

who will roll back the meaningless 10 year university degrees?

 

there is almost a desire to return to the drachma for the ultimate goal of turning back 'our way of life' to the 1980s....go back to the drachma....run a banana republic and no one will care as we just simply wont matter...after all who really cares that Fyrom has 33% unemployment or that Albania is a s%$#! hole?

[js1000]

 

Politicians stealing 100-200 million is wrong, but this theft has not brought Greece to bankruptcy...

there's a false belief that they stole the money therefore I do not get my pension at 47 and now I need to pay more VAT....WRONG

dude, the peanuts they pocketed isn't the problem, they pocketed the money in exchange for taking huge loans in order to buy military equipment that we didn't need, these loans along with the extortionate interest they bought along is what went someway to ruining the country, any reform now is meaningless 90% of all bailout money is gonna go straight back out to pay creditors so any reforms pensions cuts etc will only go towards the 10% of the bailout money that remains in Greece, i prefer to focus on the 90% because any reforms that are made now are meaningless, its too late for that the debt cannot be paid EVER it will increase with all the interest regardless of any reform.

i read the mail yesterday talking about 'gold plated pensions' trying to wind up the British by hinting their taxes were paying Greek pensioners and all i could think of was the 77 year old Greek pensioner who worked all his life as a pharmacist and shot himself in the head at a protest leaving a suicide note saying he didn't want to spend his life rummaging through bins to feed himself, i'm not sure how generous his pension was.

 

just take 3 minutes of your time and listen to the president of Iceland, this is what Greece (and other countries) need to do otherwise any reform is meaningless, this has to happen first followed by reform, if it doesn't then Greece will NEVER recover regardless of any cuts or reform, its simply not possible.

 

 

Iceland also allowed bankers to be prosecuted as criminals ? in contrast to the US and Europe, where banks were fined, but chief executives escaped punishment.

"Why should we have a part of our society that is not being policed or without responsibility?" said special prosecutor Olafur Hauksson at the time. "It is dangerous that someone is too big to investigate - it gives a sense there is a safe haven."

http://www.neonnettle.com/sphere/330-why-iceland-s-decision-to-jail-its-bankers-is-triggering-a-revolution-

[RED SHERIFF]

1) Iceland has a population 30-40 times smaller than greece

 

2) it is a far less complex  sociopolitical society

 

the two can't be compared....

 

Greece is broken to the core.....

 

even if we were to default and go back to the drachma, we would become a version of Serbia or Armenia not Iceland.

 

we need to accept the fact that we DO NOT COLLECT enough tax to pay our own bills.....the size if the debt is irrelevant..

 

no one in their right mind can do business in Greece...

 

a default won't bring reforms to invite investment.... it won't clear the antiquated legal system....the likes of PAME  would rule all industrial debates....

 

we need to understand the fabric of what makes the 'lao' tick......the 'lao' collectively is on the wrong bus..

it's perplexing because as people they are wonderful, articulate, fun loving, warm, hospitable etc... but they just don't get the other bit....

Edited June 24, 2015 by RED SHERIFF

[Bananas]

It's obvious Greece can't run itself.  It has never had a strong reliable currency, nor a professional bureaucracy.  What Greece needs is to have a different currency, that doesn't fluctuate like the drachma, and is more stable.  This in turn will lead to lower rates, and in turn allow for more foreign money to be invested.  Further, joining some sort of economic block, that can help assist it, at least as a source of investment, with a common currency, would truly lead to spectacular results.

 

Even though such a system could be considered undemocratic, and is seen by some as inflexible (since you lose the ability to issue currency and adjust your own interest rates), in time as the general standard of living rises, it will be seen that such a system is not only desirable, but necessary to lead the country into the 21st century.  At this point, the people would realise (but only at this point) that their fears were unfounded.

[Dimitri13]

 Iceland is a country with the population of Patra (the city) and 60% of its economy is fishing

[js1000]

 

 

we need to accept the fact that we DO NOT COLLECT enough tax to pay our own bills.....the size if the debt is irrelevant..

How can you say the size of the debt is irrelevant ? you can cut pensions all together triple VAT reform the tax system where everyone pays their fair share and still the debt is not manageable, once you default and issue your own currency then you implement reforms to run the country efficiently.

 

lets assume you got all the desirable reforms you wanted, and big companies invested in Greece and created jobs, Greece would still be getting handouts 90% of which would go to existing creditors and the result would be even more debt and interest and even more asset sales/privatisation until we've got nothing left to sell.

 

the point I'm making is its too late for reforms and efficiency, the time for an overhaul of the Greek system can only happen after default and issuing their own currency, if it means being like Serbia in the short term then so be it because if Greece carries on like this then every asset they have will be owned by foreign companies/creditors. 

 

 

 

 - greece and iceland are oil and water. greece's problem is the state had/has no money to pay it's debt. iceland's problem was private icelandic banks and the icelandic govt. decided not to bail them out.

The point is had they bailed them out(like the rest of Europe did) instead of prosecuting them then they would also be in debt, would that have been more desirable? or maybe you prefer the Cyprus method of banks helping themselves to peoples savings, and Cyprus is still in debt, or the US method of the fed putting the state into debt by giving obscene amounts of money to their wall street chums and when Bernie Sanders asks who got the money Ben Bernanke refuses to disclose it, result: huge debt in the US, which you're picking up the tab for.

Iceland also implemented reforms to make them more efficient(VAT hike, tax on sugary products etc) but only after they allowed their banks to fail. 

[gyros]

Greece is not capable of implementing reforms and sticking to them.  I don't get why you think Greece can just go back to the drachma and all of a sudden turn it around after 5-10 years when Greek mentality refuses to even reform unlimited free college.

[Bananas]

Reforms are meaningless when you can't issue your own currency and have it float at a value that reflects the strength of your economy.  Likewise with the setting of interest rates.  The basic structure of the EU is a straight jacket.

 

Spain, Ireland and to a lesser extent Italy are "reforming" and have been for several years.  How long before their economies are "fixed" ?  Start counting because it's going to take a long time.  The EU is not concerned that Spain has 20+% unemployment.  They are more than happy with the "growth" of this "tiger" in the last 12 months.

[RED SHERIFF]

we also need to realise that we can't be governed by a bunch of coffee sipping Che Guevara inspired pseudo politicians...these guys are a laughing stock

[js1000]

Greece is not capable of implementing reforms and sticking to them.  I don't get why you think Greece can just go back to the drachma and all of a sudden turn it around after 5-10 years when Greek mentality refuses to even reform unlimited free college.

because its their only hope, there is no other option. If they're incapable then they may as well dissolve parliament and let Brussels run Greece. 

 

 

we also need to realise that we can't be governed by a bunch of coffee sipping Che Guevara inspired pseudo politicians...these guys are a laughing stock

are you alluding to the EU commissioners who have no idea where billions of euros have been spent, refuse to be audited are not elected and think they have the right to tell Greece to implement reforms and how to run their finances or do you mean Tsiparas? they're all 'Pseudo politicians' at least Tsiparas was elected unlike Jean Claude Juncker.

pick your poison 

 

Nice pic of a young Tsiparas with the 1000 other 'Greek radicals' can you imagine a trouble maker like that running a country? it reminds me of pictures of a young David Cameron and Boris Johnson who used to smash up and vandalise hotels and restaurants when they were members of the prestigious bullingdon dining club during their younger days with the delightful George Osborne.

These are the people running the UK so don't be too hard on Tsiparas and his 'radical' ilk. 

 

 

'An excessive sense of entitlement" was what the mayor of London ascribed to those looting their way across our sceptred isle ? but he could have been referring to himself. In the mid-to-late 80s, Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson ? not to mention David Cameron and his now chancellor George Osborne ? were members of the notorious Bullingdon Club, the Oxford university "dining" clique that smashed their way through restaurant crockery, car windscreens and antique violins all over the city of knowledge.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2011/aug/10/uk-riots-boris-johnson

[King_Katsouranis]

Some interesting points.

JS, there is a fundamental difference when you bring up the Bullingdon Club. After they destroyed the establishments they would pay the bill. This action is significant, because it implies some responsibility. Tsipras was at the G8 as an ideological protester, conforming to the Greek left's views. 

I don't have much hope for the negotiations. The Europeans rightly or wrongly think Varoufakis is an idiot, and Varoufakis believes he is a superior being.  

[pash]

Thought this would be worth adding here - a little anecdote by the great Peter Economides:

 

http://petereconomides.com/2015/06/24/heres-what-happens-when-you-lose-your-memory-on-swiss-rail/

 

The story in a nutshell.

[gyros]

So does anyone really feel that "Before the markets open on Monday" is a deadline.  I say no.  This will go to midnight of June 30th.

[Irlandos]

Off the topic on the Greek economy but I have to say this: protesting against the G8 in Genoa is to Tsipras' CREDIT in my books.

Life has gotten far more miserable, for far too many of us, since these collusionist, by-invitation-only, no-dissent-allowed meetings have begun.

[RED SHERIFF]

there is a lot of symbolism and idealistic greek mentality behind all of this...

 

sorry to disappoint you, but world leaders and leaders of business do attend meetings....we need to get a grip of reality..

 

those pics sum up Greek politics and the ideological dribble they believe....stuck in a 1970s essay

[RED SHERIFF]

Thought this would be worth adding here - a little anecdote by the great Peter Economides:

 

http://petereconomides.com/2015/06/24/heres-what-happens-when-you-lose-your-memory-on-swiss-rail/

 

The story in a nutshell.

 

brilliant....

 

 

the lao demands

[js1000]

 

 

i take it that you believe the best path was for greece to default in 2010 and no bail-outs for european banks?

yes

 

 

JS, there is a fundamental difference when you bring up the Bullingdon Club. After they destroyed the establishments they would pay the bill. This action is significant, because it implies some responsibility. Tsipras was at the G8 as an ideological protester, conforming to the Greek left's views. 

wow, when they lob flower pots through shop windows and then leave the scene the chances are they didn't pay for the damage, the restaurants they smashed up may have been compensated but what about the women they abused and people they beat up and bragged about after? you seem to be an apologist for these thugs and have no problem with people like that running a country like the UK but are appalled that a man that attended a protest 15 years ago is running little Greece.

And they tell us in the UK anyone can be prime minister, but it seems to help if you come from an elitist background attend private schools and join a dining club that engages in thuggery and vandalism. Yet in Greece a common man has the top job and no one likes it, despite the fact the country was on its knees before he took over. Not that i think it makes any difference who's in charge while we remain in this union and currency.

 

brilliant.... the lao demands

sorry to badger on about the UK but i live here and i think its a little comparable, the UK 'Lao' demanded cuts in public spending after they were spoon fed the narrative from the government (and slavishly reported by an unquestioning UK media) that public sector workers were overpaid, had gold plated pensions and were overstaffed, these cuts have been implemented over the years. The result - the passport office had a 3 month backlog for passport applications with people moaning they had to cancel their holidays, a report today that the tax office has failed to answer 20% of its phone calls and people saying they'd had to wait on the phone for 40 minutes just to speak to someone, queues at airports because they cut the number of staff working at the UK border, ambulance services cut with stories surfacing of people bleeding to death while waiting for one, cuts at hospitals resulting in massive waiting times and fortnightly(instead of weekly) refuse collections in some areas. The public here were fed rubbish about a bloated public sector with great pensions and they demanded reform, which they got.

The lao demands. 

Edited June 26, 2015 by js1000

[RED SHERIFF]

@js1000

 

are you claiming the greek public service is more streamlined? effective? efficient? than the British?

[js1000]

Js1000 - were your grandparents/ great grandparents communists?

 

I don't understand your question, just because i empathise with people and am not an apologist for thugs and a corrupt state doesn't make me communist, in fact I'm a 'capitalist', i just wish we actually lived in a capitalist system where private firms didn't get bailed out using public money and small businesses were able to compete on a level playing field with big corporations, who are able to not pay tax, exploit cheap foreign labour and are thus able to undercut small businesses. I also wish the state didn't pass so many laws and statutes and actually left people alone more, we're drowning in EU regulations and red tape.

The EU lean more towards socialism/communism, they've succeeded in bringing the cost of living up in eastern europe and the standard of living down in western europe and are forcing member states to take in migrants who are fleeing from countries we've(the west/EU)  destroyed through military intervention and foreign aid programmes that prop up horrific regimes in their own countries. 

 

The job of governments is to provide services for people, not to give tax breaks to their corporate chums, billions in foreign aid and demand cuts in services because of lack of funds. They get away with it because too many people are apologists for the state and always give it the benefit of doubt and turn on each other. We even had a poster on here trying to excuse the thuggery of our leaders but are appalled that Tsiparas was at a demo 15 years ago.

 

When its reported companies like Pfizer paid an annual corporation tax of around

Edited June 26, 2015 by js1000

[Bananas]

Off the topic on the Greek economy but I have to say this: protesting against the G8 in Genoa is to Tsipras' CREDIT in my books.

Life has gotten far more miserable, for far too many of us, since these collusionist, by-invitation-only, no-dissent-allowed meetings have begun.

 

Have to agree with you.  Most of the people in power in the EU are not even elected officials and their is nothing citizens can currently do about it.  But, apparently having such a view means you have no grip on reality.

[Bananas]

Js1000 - were your grandparents/ great grandparents communists?

 

*shakes head* terrible ... just terrible.  This is meant to be an economic thread where we can discuss the status of the Greek economy and discuss ideas on how things could improve, regardless of how pie in the sky that is.

 

Boy, fetch me a burning cross, and some kool-aid!