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The Greek Economy Thread


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As for the bloodsucking creditors, if you don't go begging (through your own democratically elected governmet that tells you, and you believe it, that there's money to party while not being productive, etc), then you don't have to be treated in this (currently) humiliating way, like an irresponsible child.

 

Where is Greece's national independence when its creditors tell Greece how to eat, sleep, and go to the bathroom? This is like a failed stated, a third world country that you have foreigners being in charge of domestic affairs!!! And, this is exactly the situation in Greece right now.

 

Decades of borrowing and wasting money bankrupted Greece.

 

Again about the bloodsuckers of the "troika".... They agreed to lend Greece new money in 2010, 2012, with strict conditions. Now before they lend more money they want to squeeze blood. But, if Greece had another good alternative it wouldn't become like a third world country whereas foreigners would tell it what to do.

 

Another hard truth? If you don't like the troika, then go to the international market (perhaps Russia?) to get financing. Well, Greece tried this a couple years ago, only to find out that the interest rates were 35-40%!!  Why, because Greece is an extremely risky bet. So the troika lend Greece at rates up to 7%, but demanding the keys to the car and other life style choices.

 

These are the facts. You can yell "national independence", against the creditors, this and that, but slogans don't make concrete policies that will get Greece out of this mess.

 

PS> As I've said several times in my posts here, I'm not in favor of the economic policies of austerity when a country is in a slump. But, no matter what you do, systemic changes must happen so you don't return to the same mess.

 

As I ..offered to pay the whole Greek debt off. But I asked, who can bet with me that if the debt disappeared today, right now, that Greece wouldn't be in similar mess a few years from now....

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Well I would say in actions and ideology Syriza is left wing - as were PASOK before them. Forget people dying in hospital because of no medicine while the staff at ERT are rehired.  Syriza is a utopian party that questions the actual existence of capitalist systems. I don't think Greeks were necessarily wrong to vote them in - when in debt, nothing annoys the banks more than having to deal with South American style leftists. The problem with Greece is that as long as the schools and universities are marxist, there is little hope for the future.

I don't think there are Marxists in Greece (no more than 5%). Most don't understand marxism and certainly don't practice it, nor want it.  I mean, come on, you can't be a marxist and also religious!  Communism is not new. Plato promoted it in his utopian state. The early xtian church was communist too.

 

Well I would say in actions and ideology Syriza is left wing - as were PASOK before them. Forget people dying in hospital because of no medicine while the staff at ERT are rehired.  Syriza is a utopian party that questions the actual existence of capitalist systems. I don't think Greeks were necessarily wrong to vote them in - when in debt, nothing annoys the banks more than having to deal with South American style leftists. The problem with Greece is that as long as the schools and universities are marxist, there is little hope for the future.

 

ND, PASOK, SYRIZA have similar policies, using the state mechanism for favors and hiring their own people.

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To be truly left or right, in real terms means to take the country in a different directions, say a military junta (fascism) or abolish liberal democracy and implement communism.

Despite their rhetoric, all parties that have governed Greece since WW2, have had very similar politics.

 

As to analyze the political-cultural makeup of Greece would require a long discussion (perhaps another topic). The word "left" (as you seem to use it) is almost generic. But, if we are to use the definition as the left expresses and governs in Europe then you'll see the Greek left is much different.

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I love how the "Rockstar" finance minister is saying that Greece can be trusted.  Seriously, thanks for the laugh.  The Syriza SCUM are dinosaurs from the 70's with no ideas and just there to cause mayhem among civilized people.  These people idolize November 17.  That says it all right there.

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What an embarrassment, lol  Greece becomes the first modern country to not be able to pay back the IMF. We join such illustrious countries as Zimbabwe, Ethiopia, Sudan, Cuba. WTF??

What has happened to Greece? Thank god my Grandfathers decided to come to Canada back in the 50's.  Greece has now only became a place for me to visit for a few weeks, but i would never want to live there. I feel sorry for the Greeks there.

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And what exactly will the Greek military do that could possibly help the situation? Can they obliterate debt with a tank or an attack helicopter? Maybe draw up plans to bomb Berlin or Brussels to show that Greeks mean business.  Negotiation hasn't worked, so why not some good old fashioned military intimidation? That will really get the Troika to bow to Greek demands. 

 

The situation in Greece is a fiasco and the damage may just be irreparable. All the waffling and twist and turns are leading to a further destruction of the economy and hurting the people. Maybe the PM is smarter than all of us and this type of chaos is part of some master plan that will lead to salvation but at the moment that is not looking very likely.

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OlympicHellas going by the Global Fire power 2015 world military strength rankings....Greece is ranked in the top 17 Air sea and land...Go and see for yourself. All major categories from attack air craft fighter jets, helicopters, tanks, missiles....Marines...Greece is military ready....We should use our biggest strength....My gut instinct is, we will.

 

But in global strength Greece is ranked 65 out of 126 countries, they are ranked in Europe 20th out of 28 countries, They might have Equipment, but no one to man them. 

In available manpower they are ranked 74 out of 126 countries and in fit men ready for action they are ranked 71 out of 126.  The only thing the Greek military is ready for is to fight  those poor pensioners with canes, LOL.

 

I'm a proud Greek, but i know that this country is in more trouble than the Military or Government can fix. They need debt forgiveness, and start fresh. Just like a normal person who does a bankruptcy can get a chance to do. 

Edited by Torontoblue
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My grandmother who lives in a village got $120 this week of her pension.  The protocol in a village is that the mailman delivers the pensions in cash for people unlike a big city where you go to the bank if you don't know.  Some people from the village drove to the main office to see when they will be getting the rest and were told they don't have anymore money.  The next step will be social unrest.

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Time for the military to stabilize things, and bring Greece back to respectability.

Being on your hands and knees begging the Germans must end.

 

And what is the military going to do to bring back Greece to respectability when the whole country is BROKE

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Actually, Gyros has attacked many Greeks, calling them things like scum. That is his opinion which he has a right to. You have attacked him personally, questioning his nationality and suggesting he is a Turk or Albanian (remember how offended you were on behalf of JS when I asked if his grandfather was a communist? I think we need more balance.). :smartass:  Now seeing as you get easily offended - even on behalf of others and indeed have said things that are untrue of Greece - like Greeks blaming the left in Greece.. perhaps just pause before you post again and question if what you are writing is in fact true - or more to do with emotion. The stuff that is untrue and just emotion - people will call you up on like has happened to JS. I believe everyone here wants to see a better Greece. Gyros' method is shock therapy, others.. a warm blanket and kind words. 

 

It's not my fault he can't post without offending people.  His style of posting is reminiscent of a posse who used to post frequently on gs.com but were eventually banned from the site ...

 

Shock therapy ... more like troll therapy.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

But you are right, I maybe took it a bit far calling him a possible Skopian or Turk.  I should as you said ... pause, and only post facts that are true.  And I can't be certain he's a Skopian or Turk poster who's trolling the site.  I do find it difficult to accept his pleasure at the suffering of Greeks.  Keep choking 'em!  Yeah!

 

And since you're so careful about only posting facts, there must in fact be a war on the ground.  More hyperbole and melodrama.

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http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/01/why-we-recommend-a-no-in-the-referendum-in-6-short-bullet-points/#comments

Why we recommend a NO in the referendum ? in 6 short bullet points

Posted on July 1, 2015 by yanisv

  1. Negotiations have stalled because Greece?s creditors (a) refused to reduce our un-payable public debt and (b) insisted that it should be repaid ?parametrically? by the weakest members of our society, their children and their grandchildren

The IMF, the United States? government, many other governments around the globe, and most independent economists believe ? along with us ? that the debt must be restructured.

The Eurogroup had previously (November 2012) conceded that the debt ought to be restructured but is refusing to commit to a debt restructure

Since the announcement of the referendum, official Europe has sent signals that they are ready to discuss debt restructuring. These signals show that official Europe too would vote NO on its own ?final? offer.

Greece will stay in the euro.  Deposits in Greece?s banks are safe.  Creditors have chosen the strategy of blackmail based on bank closures. The current impasse is due to this choice by the creditors and not by the Greek government discontinuing the negotiations or any Greek thoughts of Grexit and devaluation. Greece?s place in the Eurozone and in the European Union is non-negotiable.

The future demands a proud Greece within the Eurozone and at the heart of Europe. This future demands that Greeks say a big NO on Sunday, that we stay in the Euro Area, and that, with the power vested upon us by that NO, we renegotiate Greece?s public debt as well as the distribution of burdens between the haves and the have nots.

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And what is the military going to do to bring back Greece to respectability when the whole country is BROKE

and who thinks that the N17 worshipers in government would ever dream of using the military for any purpose......this goes against their ideology...

 

regarding the long standing debate on how left syriza are??

 

they are a spin off of KKE...

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It has a lot to do with the debate in the sense that either with the Euro or drachma a political landscape that does not foster or nurture investment or growth will not lead to jobs and a strong economy...

 

ND/PASOK/SYRIZA are only acronyms...Greece has a 'Latin American socialist' view of sociopolitical issues...and now they have a Che Guevara PM to match..

 

Can you really see no problem with the fact that we are lead by a bunch of guys that admire N17?

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The mechanism for Greece to be removed from the Eurozone is very complicated. It is not as simple as many on the other side are making out.

Of course, this was done on purpose to prevent nations leaving when they'd had enough. 

 

 

another issue is the EU issue. EU subsidies. if greece defaults to germany, france and italy - good luck getting those nations to contribute EU funds earmarked for greece. the spiral will only intensify.

aek, these subsidies come with strings and policies that don't always benefit Greece, in fact they are designed to create dependance on the EU. Greece is better off in the long run without them.

 

 

Exactly. I have already voted in plenty of referendums and I am an EU citizen. The idea this is the first referendum Greeks are voting in since 1974 is mind blowing and explains a lot about how little care the Greeks have in the direction the country takes.

reaper, its not a case of greeks not 'caring' if they've never been offered a referendum in the past thats not the fault of the Greek people, what you should be saying is how little the EU care about referendum results. remember when Dutch and French voters voted NO to a new EU constitution? the EU decided to call it a 'treaty'(the Lisbon treaty i believe) saying a referendum was no longer necessary as its now a 'treaty' when the Irish voters rejected this 'treaty' the EU made them vote again.

That's what i call stunningly and embarrassingly democratic. 

The quicker Greece exit from this cesspit of a union the better. 

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The cover from the Italian magazine Panorama. The headline reads Pagliacci = Clowns

 

newego_LARGE_t_1101_54528836.JPG

 

 

Democracy in Greece in under humongous pressure. All the SYRIZA/ANEL shenanigans are leading to the crumbling of democracy. The rise of Totalitarianism is at the doorstep.

Tsipras has displayed his tactics. The more he stays in power the deeper the hole to bury democracy in.

Edited by JimAdams
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That picture sums it up.  The Greeks elected clowns and the Greek population is so braindead that if they had elections on Monday, these guys would win again because they were promised higher pensions, free electricity, no taxes.

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I can't believe the amount of hate that Tsipras has been receiving from people on these forums, the reality is that Greece cannot continue with the current austerity measures offered by the creditors it clear that in 5 months time we will be in a much worst situation than the one we are in now.

 

The call for the referendum was 100% justified you need to remember that he was only voted in with 40% of the total countries votes and doesn't have the authority to revert to the Drachma without a referendum.

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Panorama has a right-wing bias, as it is produced and published by Mondidori, which is owned by Berlusconi. They are always going to be against the left whether it be in Italy or on Europe.

Calling Tsipras & Varoufakis clowns is reverting to type for them. This isn't a view that's shared by Italians in general.

Sure it might get gyros hard but meh and yawn. What next, showing a cover of the tabloid German Bild with derogatory headlines.

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Jim Adams post's message is similar to what I asked here earlier. How would you react if roles were reversed. Perhaps, Fyrom or Turkey were in Greece's position and behaved likewise.... 

 

Yesterday, the young and progressive Italian PM said that (loose translation) he didn't take austerity measures on Italian pensioners, etc,  so Greeks can maintain their lifestyle and corrupt system! Similar statements have been made by several other Eurozone leaders, especially of smaller countries, Ireland, Finland, etc.

 

The point is that some time ago there were European leaders who had voiced support for Greece, but nowadays there's none. Why?....  In other words, the Greek government has no support. Even from countries that are in financial trouble may face tough conditions from lenders, so it would be to their interest to argue for lighter conditions on the Greek debt. But they aren't supporting Greece any longer...

 

 

 

PS> No country (developed country), especially the financially troubled ones in Eurozone, will be treated like Greece. Why? Because no other country has been so unreliable. The Greek case is strict supervision of a unruly child, where even small details of how to behave from now on are decided by others. Hooray for national independence!

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At least Tsipras has balls and is not going to roll over and except something that will cripple the Greek people for generations to come, at least the guy is trying to get a deal that's not so damaging to the Greek people. The media and and the European Union is making the guy out to be so bad because all they want is a yes man that will agree with all of there demands regardless of how it will end up the Greek people and they don't like the fact that Tsipras is standing up to these guys.

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At least Tsipras has ###### balls and is not going to roll over and except something that will cripple the Greek people for generations to come, at least the guy is trying to get a deal that's not so damaging to the Greek people. The media and and the European Union is making the guy out to be so bad because all they want is a ###### yes man that will agree with all of there demands regardless of how it will end up ###### the Greek people and they don't like the fact that Tsipras is standing up to these guys.

 

He lied to get elected by saying everyone is going to get bigger pensions, expansion of the government to hire thousands, and free electricity and the people voted for him.  Now there is no money and the old people are fainting in lines to get $120 Euros.

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ND TO the rescue LMAF!!!!

 

The only people that can save Greece are outsiders who don't care about votes.  The train of thinking in Greece is one out of a communist playbook written in the 70's.  Anti business, Anti Euro, Anti America Pro Russia Pro Libya Pro Palestine.  The pony tailed bearded youth who wander to the kaffenio everyday with a backpack and laptop are of no help either.

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