Jump to content
Phantis Forums

The Greek Economy Thread


Recommended Posts

Athinaios the scenario you pose is due to the governments of PASOK and ND, I dont understand what it has to do with the current government.

 

You don't understand, Tsipras and Varoufakis have repeatedly told the Troika that they want to pay back the debts however Greece is physically unable too do so as the debt is now unserviceable and unless relief is given it wont be. It is in the Troikas interests to provide debt relief similar to what Germany received after WW2 to help them rebuild. 

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just to clarify, the austerity suggested by the Troika will only result in the economy to shrink further, so how in the world will Greece be able to pay the debt in 6 months times with a smaller economy than the one it currently has today.

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Holy f*cking s%$#!!  You're one of those guys ! How far back do you go? Bring back the Byzantine Empire?

 

 

 

Do you know anything of those regions called Macedonia, Aegean islands, Eastern Thrace? How about Epirus? Does that ring a bell? Do you think a failed state we be able to defend itself?

Arsi, burzi kai loulas...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@ Dimitri 13:

 

I've repeatedly said the troika recipe for economic recovery is faulty. But, elements for domestic reforms are very sound, and sadly it came to foreigners to demand how Greece organizes itself. It's humiliating.

 

Secondly, you have to agree that being irresponsible leads to losing national independence when you go begging. Blaiming, cursing, making enemies of those who demand an arm and a leg before they lend you again (since you've lost all credibility), isn't doing any good. After all, you go begging to them. Right?

 

Syriza proved amateurish in handling the negotiations, and not having serious plans to deal with the crisis after they brought down the previous government. Precious time was lost too.

 

Excuse me, but when I hear Tsipras uttering bullshit and cheap slogans I cringe. Honestly, I really wanted this guy to suceed and breathe a fresh air into Greek politics but he/they proved inadequate for the circumstances.

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I cant believe some of you want the people to vote NO. Thats crazy, suicidal. Leave the Euro, a strong real currency and go back to the Drachmas. LOL. 

The Drachmas wouldn't be worth the paper its printed on. Greece would be worse off. That currency would be so de-valued. Think Zimbabwean dollars?  What trade would happen with the drachmas? Who would want to do business with that? The only happy people would be the foreigners, who could vacation and live in Greece like kings with their money. LOL

 

I see no other out come tomorrow but a YES vote. The Greek people aren't stupid. Austerity is painful, but a life under the Drachma would be worse.  

Edited by Torontoblue
  • Like it 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But, that's the problem with this stupid referendum. A "no" vote does not mean what you say. Even Tsipras said a "no" doesn't necessarily mean leaving the eurozone. But, the question is what's next after the referendum?...

 

I can't believe that Tsipras wanted a referendum to show how Greece is independent, to show unity, and whatever else.... Sorry, but this is totall b.s. What makes it worse is that there's no offer on the table right now so, in theory, Greek voters could ..analyze it and determine if those conditions are good.  tsk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's not going to happen Torontoblue, the creditors will never stomach losing 360 billion dollars....If they want their money back, and they will....The creditors will find ways to put value into the drachma, so they can recover most of their money back....This is all BS propaganda, even if Greece votes no or yes it will be very close and divided....No government can operate under these circumstances.

Even if Greece goes to the drachma, they will reduce the debts....And Greece will be much better off.

If a yes comes in strong....I feel sorry for them....The youth who have no future under harsh austerity measures....Will vote no thank god!!!

 

Creditors is not individual banks like you imagine in this case.  Banks hold less than 5% of the 240 bil debt.  Germany and France are more than willing to write off this debt as its stretched over 30 years so in the general scheme of things, it will effect their bottom line very little.  A person who is in debt never holds any cards.  Greece is in tough trouble if they go to the drachma.  Alone and isolated with money that is worthless.  They will just be another vacation spot for people to get drunk at and then go home.

  • Like it 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But, that's the problem with this stupid referendum. A "no" vote does not mean what you say. Even Tsipras said a "no" doesn't necessarily mean leaving the eurozone. But, the question is what's next after the referendum?...

 

I can't believe that Tsipras wanted a referendum to show how Greece is independent, to show unity, and whatever else.... Sorry, but this is totall b.s. What makes it worse is that there's no offer on the table right now so, in theory, Greek voters could ..analyze it and determine if those conditions are good.  tsk

 

Agreed.  This referendum is bizarre.  Its 50-50 yet 75% want to stay in the Euro. It makes no sense.  The die hard "No" people in here don't understand that 75% of Greece wants to stay in the Euro yet they might vote NO tomorrow.  This is just a ploy to stay in power.  The banks are closed and its getting rough.  Straight out of South America political tactics.

Edited by gyros
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see no other out come tomorrow but a YES vote. The Greek people aren't stupid. Austerity is painful, but a life under the Drachma would be worse.

 

Don't you worry, the Yes side will win tomorrow, TPTB will get the outcome they want even if they have to interfere in the vote to get Yes to come out on top.  All this 'too close to call' BS is really code for 'we will do what we have to to get the vote to come out the way we want it'.

 

How do you know that life under the Drachmna would be worse, are you a prophet?!

 

The die hard "No" people in here don't understand that 75% of Greece wants to stay in the Euro yet they might vote NO tomorrow

 

Relax buddy, Greece is not going anywhere, they will continue to be part of your precious EU for a long time.  The Eurocrats do not intend for anyone to leave their lovely union, that is why they did not write in any provisions in the EU constition for 'how to ejct a member' or for what happens if a member wants to leave voluntarily- once you join this NWO club, you are a member for life.  All this 'leave the Euro' BS is just propaganda to scare the masses into thinking that they will be booted out of this exclusive club, which will soon be expanded to other parts of the globe (i.e. North American Union, African Union, etc.).  For the EU lovers, can you answer me one thing- Name me one positive thing that has resulted from Greece being part of the EU?!  All I see is sky high unemployment, poverty and a more expensive cost of living (everything got a lot more expensive once they switched from Drachmas to Euros and prices have continued to increase).  Sure you have hassle free travel within EU countries due to having the same passport but as far as everyday life, what good has the EU brought to the people of Greece- the regular folk NOT the elites?!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

stay in euro (although this currency is way overvalued and needs to come down quite a bit to create some kind of competition) and move on.....

The Germans, Dutch, Finns, etc. will NOT have it. They want a strong currency and don't care whom they strangle in order to keep it that way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Talked to some family members.  They are voting NO but the funny part is they have no money now so they are living off of MY money that I get for rent LOL. Got to love the logic.  But then again they want to stay in the EU so I'm not sure nor are they sure what they are voting NO on.  This is a big cluster F***.

Edited by gyros
Link to comment
Share on other sites

people have good points on both sides of the argument.

 

I just cannott believe at this moment  that we cannott send money to greece as a result of the mismanagement of our country.

 

(in canada most banks now have an advisory for this)

 

That things have gotten to this point is truly absurd.

 

We all need to pray things turn around.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice post aek66.  Agree with you 100% about how the elite try to bottle wealth.  Greece has been a shining beacon of this for the last 4 or so decades.  Someone should write a text book on it.

 

As to how to start over, I remember Varoufakis saying he was going to go after the "oligarchs" when Syriza were first elected but I haven't heard much since then in terms of practical action.  I hope he gets a chance to do it, because I believe him when he says he wants stop them having so much influence over the country.

 

And yes, whatever happened to the Lagarde list.  Has it been swept under the carpet for good ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A vote for no is surely the only way to vote. The fact is that the austerity of the last few years has been too severe and has choked the economy and the ordinary people are suffering and all to make sure the western banks do not lose out and get their money

At least this government has fought back at the ridiculous demands that have been made regarding repayments.

The previous governments agreed to every demand that was made.

Of course there is bad business practice and cronyism and this has to be addressed but first the debt needs to be addressed by extending the repayment period it makes it more manageable it has been done before ironically for the benefit of the Germans.

Britain only finished paying her debts to the Americans, incurred from the Second World War, a couple of years ago. Imagine if the U.S. Had demanded payment over a much shorter period.

At least this government have have argued back fought their corner and emphasised that the current arrangement has not worked

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'll tell you what, if the No vote gets up, it was meant to be.  The EU has tried everything in their power to stop the No vote from winning.  They stopped liquidity which led to this week's capital controls.  Shameful.

 

And now this pearl of a quote from Mr. Martin Schulz.

 

?If they (Greeks) say ?No?, they will have to introduce another currency after the referendum because the euro is not available as a means of payment," Martin Schulz, the president of the European Parliament, said in remarks broadcast on Germany?s Deutschlandfunk radio on Sunday.

 

Just as the polling begins.  Nice timing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Arsi, burzi kai loulas...

Nice, very grown up. What's the next thing you will do? Stick out your tongue?

And since we've come down to personal situations: I am sick. The doctor gives me medicine that makes me far worse. Why on Earth would I continue in the future, to take the same medicine that didn't work in the past???

Sorry to hear that (you are sick), but I don't see you jumping off the cliff (or balcony). Why, according to your logic, should Greece commit suicide?

 

I lived for years with drachmas and never knew any Greek who starved.

Fear-mongering tactics are all you

Edited by JimAdams
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jimmy, if the criteria for posting on this thread are that you need to have spent x amount of days, months or years living in Greece before you can post, you're going to have a very quiet thread with not many posts.  Where is the cut off ?  Can one post if they've lived in Greece for 5 years, but it was 20 years ago ?  Or can they post if they lived there for 2 years, 5 years ago ?  Is there a formula ?

 

Saying that posters shouldn't post due to such a reason is a bit rich don't you think ?  People can form opinions (other than eyes on the ground) especially these days with the internet making alternative views and ideas so accessible.  I know that my opinion of Greece was very different to friends of mine.  It's so ... subjective you see.  But my friends can't say that their view of reality is better or more accurate than mine, because they stayed in Greece a few weeks longer or less than I did.

 

You seem to have a real problem with anyone disagreeing with you.  It's an internet forum.  And people have their opinions.  And it's a politics thread!  Just accept it.

 

Your "I'm going to give it to him" style of posting with anyone that disagrees with you is over the top.  You have some good points, so just make them.  No need to be so combative all the time.  Or do you just enjoy the verbal jousting ?  Just saying.

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I write "What "sovereign nation" are we talking about when are forced to go against our own interests concerning Russia?"

 

I get an answer:

Holy f*cking s%$#!!  You're one of those guys ! How far back do you go? Bring back the Byzantine Empire?

 

 

 

I write: What "sovereign nation" are we talking about when everything is dictated from Brussels and Berlin and Angela Merkel wants us to change our constitution to say foreign lenders get preference over Greeks???

 

I get an answer - from the same individual:

 

Do you know anything of those regions called Macedonia, Aegean islands, Eastern Thrace? How about Epirus? Does that ring a bell? Do you think a failed state we be able to defend itself?

 

 

Please, someone explain to me how one argument leads to another? :wacko:

 

How is selling peaches, oranges and apples to Russia related to... the Byzantine Empire?

How are foreigners trying to dictate what we should write into our constitution related to...northern Greece?

 

It seems that "yes" voters have resorted to confusion tactics ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Troika supporters are going all out to scare Greeks to accept what most harms them - endless austerity until the entire population is forced into impoverished indentured servitude to western bankers.

 

@aek, these banks that gave these super low interest rates to Greece on more favourable terms than Ireland did so but Greece is paying a lower rate on a much higher amount so the interest alone still cripples Greece.

 

@gyros, let Greece go to Bulgarian rate pensions, if they stay in Europe they slowly will do anyway but things will remain expensive, as for Europe dumping us because we're not civilised enough, go to any UK city centre on a friday or saturday night and see how civilised the Brits are, in fact go to Faliraki(Rhodes) or any Greek island during the summer months and see how well western European tourists behave.

 

The EU want everything privately owned by their corporate chums under privatisation in exchange for bailout money, Greece will eventually own nothing. Thanks for the subsidies for our highways, but who owns them? where does the toll money go? 

 

 

So, do us all a favor and don't talk about the Greece you do not know anything about because it makes all your other arguments sound unsubstantiated and Utopian. I don't agree with everything gyros says, but he seems to be more in tune with Greece and Greeks than the majority of people posting here, which I would characterize as nationalistic 'Spartan' wannabes (or as they are known in Greece, Golden Dawn voters)

Nice one Jim, anyone who doesn't want to be governed by an unaudited corrupt incompetent organisation is somehow 'a nationalistic spartan wannabe' or a 'golden dawn supporter' 

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The polls close in an hour to a referendum that nobody has a clue about.  Nobody even knows what will happen if a yes wins or a no wins.  Makes me question how this is even legal but its Greece so anything goes there.  The laws don't get enforced.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jim

 

I agree with you here.  Some of the posters on this board are either young or far removed from Greece and do not know any better.  Its like the people at the church who mean well but they can't speak more than "Ti Kaneis" and their only exposure to Greece was a 1 week vacation in 2003 on some group tour.  They don't understand everyday Greek life and all the obstacles and crap people have to go through to get anything done or all the corruption.  I'm not dissing anyone with their opinion but its obvious that some people are not in the know and try to use United States capitalism and Greek governing which that is like trying to mix oil and water.

Edited by gyros
  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...