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The Greek Economy Thread


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JVC - I am not so much upset at the point that he could not reach a deal, I am upset at his negotiating tactics.  I have said many times that I do believe he has valid points however you lose all credibility when you fail to participate in constructive negotiations.  In our day to day lives, we all have deadlines that we must adhere to.  For example, if my company has a reporting requirement with the SEC on the 30th and two days before I say that I will not meet it because I need to schedule a board meeting a week later, what would happen? Would investors want to invest capital in my company? What would happen to my credibility? How would the general public react? Would you invest in me?

 

I do not like Europe's proposals as they would restrict growth but Greece has failed to produce a proposal that would both cut spending or reform the public sector and improve growth.  The Samaras administration did not do this either but I trust them more.  They are the best choice of all of the current options. 

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I am new to these forums, express my opinion and get called a moron over what is sound reasoning.

 

Sorry but did you even read the comments that you are quoting?!  That whole paragraph as well as the 'moron' comment were directed at Samaras not you (whom I don't even know).

 

I have said many times that I do believe he has valid points however you lose all credibility when you fail to participate in constructive negotiations.

 

What negotiations?!  The EU only care about recouping the money they are owed, period.  Their whole stance and everything that they propose revolves soley around doing whatever they can to get their money back not about helping out the Greek economy which is in dire straits.

 

The Samaras administration did not do this either but I trust them more.  They are the best choice of all of the current options.

 

That is a contradictory statement if there ever was one?!  You acknowledge that Samaras and his government failed at negotiating a good deal for the country yet you still trust them?!?  What do you base this trust on if I may ask, the fact that Samaras was educated in your country and thus that makes him better qualified to lead?  He is one of the elite, part of the oligarchy that has ruled Greece for decades and are responsible for getting the country to where it is today.

 

As for missing deadlines....Tsipars was never going to accept the proposed austerity measures

 

Exactly, he was elected by the people to END austerity so there is no way he was going to accept any deal that involved more austerity measures.

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HellasHab - Sorry for the misunderstanding, just read it that way.  At the end of the day while everyone agrees that the austerity imposed measures by the EU is not helping Greece, the alternatives are far worse.  If Greece would leave the EU, what would happen to the quality of life of the Greek people? How would they pay for the basic necessities that they need? Its a hard choice either way.  Would I rather Greece be in Europe or out of it? I would pick in Europe.

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Going back to an earlier point - people still think the government owes them a pension? Really? I figured out when I was 16 that social security was not going to be around when I retired. I also knew that the retirement age would keep getting pushed back. That is just reality - we live too damn long. People also like to argue that the government can't run anything right. Well, you can't have it both ways - if they can't control their own affairs, how could you be comfortable with relying on a monthly check from them when you're too old to work? These reasons are why I've spent the last 14 years preparing myself for that future.

 

Are people really so naive?

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Greece makes last-minute proposal to lenders to avert default

 

So Tsipras who was against the bailout decides to accept it 5 hours before the deadline expires....This is why I don't trust him, he told everyone that this is a bad deal and then does an about face 2 days later!!!!

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Syriza has to be the worst group of people ever.  Lying scum.

 

They are telling everyone to vote no but 2.6 million people are receiving pensions.  None of them is stupid enough to vote NO. Because the other option is no money or worse get paid in drachma.  Europe needs to keep squeezing Greece to get rid of Syriza.  Tighten the rope.  Its for the good of the country. We need discipline and a sense of direction.  Nobody in Greece can offer us this.  

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In the video clip above, Stephen Haseler (the third guest) makes the most sense to me.  Europe has to write off about $50 billion of Greek debt right away--more if Greece behaves-- so the Greek economy has a chance to repay past lenders and grow at the same time. This is provided they want to keep Greece in the eurozone.

 

Secondly, the stupid austerity (indeed, conservative) economic policies by those currently in charge of the European finances, and IMF, must stop. In order to get out of a slump austerity isn't the way. But, the way out has to be prudent, that is economic policies that create jobs and commercial activities, and other measures that help stability in society. A smart rescue plan, in my opinion, would be based on: "haircut" of debt; demands from meaningful state reforms in Greece; repayment tied to economic growth (both parties would have an interest in growing the Greek economy, and the more growth the more repayments of debt).

 

My sense is that the lenders want to punish Greece which has cheated, lied, and wasted tons of borrowed money in the past. Of course, there's no trust in Greek governments. Some of the suggestions of Greece were, give us money now and at some point in the future we'll fix the ills of our system. The reply is, no. There's no mutual trust.

 

Sometimes it helps to examine an issue from someone else's point of view. Let's say it was Turkey (or Fyrom) in Greece's position, and Greece was like Iceland or Holland, etc. What do you think Greeks would be saying today regarding Turkey's mismanagement?....

 

 

PS. Yes, the Euros don't like SYRIZA. They say, look, your Greek governments signed loans, under rather great terms, and now Syriza/Chipras get elected basically saying they won't recognize the country's obligations. If you weren't Greek, could you be agreeing?

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I think we agree that the debt has to be reduced (haircut) if Greece has a chance of economic growth. However, as I often say, let me pay off the entire Greek debt. Poof. It's gone. Now, how many of you think that without any meaningful reforms, Greece will accumulate another huge debt.....  This is the crux of the matter.

 

In my estimate, the corruption is so deep that only an outside force could make Greece reform its political & economic system. We all agree that governments have been irresponsible and corrupt. But how about the people? Almost everyone has milked the system one way or another. OK, I also agree, if a system is so corrupt, it's a total mess you can't escape it...

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I think we agree that the debt has to be reduced (haircut) if Greece has a chance of economic growth. However, as I often say, let me pay off the entire Greek debt. Poof. It's gone. Now, how many of you think that without any meaningful reforms, Greece will accumulate another huge debt.....  This is the crux of the matter.

 

In my estimate, the corruption is so deep that only an outside force could make Greece reform its political & economic system. We all agree that governments have been irresponsible and corrupt. But how about the people? Almost everyone has milked the system one way or another. OK, I also agree, if a system is so corrupt, it's a total mess you can't escape it...

 

Some people don't get this part.  You need outside forces.  Greeks are so corrupt they can't be trusted.  Another example that isn't pointed out is how you have to have a "meso" to get a job.  You can have someone be super smart with a degree and the whole world behind them but the neighbor's child will be hired.  Its stupid s%$#! like this which compounds the situation.

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for those concerned we may go to Bulgarian pensions at 250 Euros.  What do you think the equivalent will be in Drachmas?

probably less(which is why it won't happen, people will vote for the short term), but there's no other option, like i said accept this and a few months down the line the next tranche of cash Greece will need to pay creditors will come with more strings and further pension reductions. There will never be a recovery regardless of what reforms are made. 

Leave the union, use your own currency, make your own laws that benefit your own country not the EU, and then a recovery can slowly begin. 

As bad as it will be to begin with it can't really get much worse than it is now.

 

The leftist backflip of all leftists backflips.

A letter to creditors obtained by the Financial Times says Mr Tsipras is prepared to accept most conditions that were on the table before talks collapsed and he called a referendum.

On Tuesday, eurozone finance ministers refused to extend the previous bailout.

Greece became the first European Union country to fail to repay a loan to the International Monetary Fund.

The Financial Times says that Mr Tsipras was prepared to accept a deal made by creditors over the weekend, if a few changes were agreed.

The FT says a letter sent by Mr Tsipras to creditors asked for only two changes: that a VAT discount to Greek islands is maintained, and that the process of raising the retirement age to 67 begins in October and not immediately.

Greece's national broadcaster ERT says Mr Tspiras would accept a deal with only minor requests for changes.

what a sell out, he simply bottled it, i thought it was too good to be true.

I don't see it as a 'leftist' flip, he was elected not because he's a lefty but because SYRIZA were the only party opposing(or pretending to) the EU. 

 

by the way one of  the reasons i don't believe in austerity and don't blame generous pensions for the crisis is below.

 

One would have imagined that the Greek government would have taken a sledgehammer to the defense budget back in 2009 when the debt crisis first took hold of this small country in the south east of Europe.

But no.

One would have thought too that the European Union and NATO might have used the euro crisis as an ideal opportunity to encourage countries to share defense equipment and cut back on wasteless duplication.

But no.

Greece went on a buying spree, purchasing submarines, fighter jets, and tanks from Germany and France. Not that they needed them. The region was stable. In 2009, almost 28 percent of its then ?10 billion budget was spent on military equipment?higher than in the United States or any other NATO country.

http://carnegieeurope.eu/strategiceurope/?fa=49185

Edited by js1000
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Don't believe whatever comes from that commie scum.  The EU is tired of dealing with this filth.  First it was throwing out nazi reparations and now flipping back and forth on deals and then calling a referendum.  Nope, the EU should just choke out Greece.  Let the referendum do the talking.  Go on with it.  This Syriza idiot thought he would sink the world's financial markets with the "default" but nobody really cares anymore unless you own stock in Gyros meat or Feta Cheese.

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I love how he addresses the country daily with the same rhetoric about the big bad EU and he won't be blackmailed lol.

 

I'm actually fearful that the Syriza scum are performing a coup and taking over the country.  If anyone reads some of the Greek papers, they are doing some fishy things to get "no" votes.  Its like all the rules went out the window in regards to paying taxes, drivers licenses etc...  These scum may need to be removed by the military.

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I was watching a debate last night between a SYRIZA MP who wants a NO vote and several others (ND, business men, etc...) The lies coming out of this guys mouth were incredible.  He was saying that if everyone voted NO, banks would open the next day.  If they voted yes, banks wouldn't open for two weeks.

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Don't believe whatever comes from that commie scum.  The EU is tired of dealing with this filth.  First it was throwing out nazi reparations and now flipping back and forth on deals and then calling a referendum.  Nope, the EU should just choke out Greece.  Let the referendum do the talking.  Go on with it.  This Syriza idiot thought he would sink the world's financial markets with the "default" but nobody really cares anymore unless you own stock in Gyros meat or Feta Cheese.

 

Scum, commie, choke.  Great to see you get such a kick out of the suffering.  And this isn't the first time you've used colorful language like this.  You are special.  You should ask your therapist for a refund.  You remind me of Nurse Ratched, especially since you used the "choke" description.  Great scene.

 

Are you even Greek ?  I'm beginning to think you're a Skopian or Turk that just comes onto these forums to troll.

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Correct me if I'm wrong, but was the back flip a back flip ?  Didn't Tsipras just present the same terms as before ?  The sticking point last week was that the EU wanted to increase the VAT and have a decrease on pensions.  

 

Just a second ... *boom* ... there was a commie bastard scum at the door.  One less now.

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for those concerned we may go to Bulgarian pensions at 250 Euros.  What do you think the equivalent will be in Drachmas?

 

The question is, not what the pension will become now, but what it will be in 10 years from now.

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Untrue, there were at least 2 right wing parties completely opposing austerity and they still are, such as ANEL. Also you said opposing the EU? I think what you meant to say is opposing austerity. Syriza is pro EU like most leftist parties. It is their child. This is a leftist flip however, even by leftist standards, the flip is so soon after the stereotypical bluff.. it is impressive.  It reminds me of Alafouzos' bluff that he would pull PAO out of the Greek SL if Olympiacos are not punished.

 

On another note, there is something very very Greek about this disastrous move by Tsipras. It is the politics of a boy who would still be breastfeeding from his mother if it was socially acceptable.  It is weak, naive and shows a complete lack of understanding of realpolitik.  It is this type of individual that guaranteed Cyprus was invaded and sliced like a cheap cake. It is this type of Greek that allows Turkey to violate Greek airspace and sea borders daily. It is this type of Greek that means that a country with the potential to be like Switzerland - has a reality where we seem to resemble a pseudo Albanian country - broken, divided and with no intelligence at any level. 

 

Bizarre.  There is something very very Greek about blaming all the ills of the nation on "the left".  Has "the right" never done anything wrong ?

 

Greece was never an advanced first world economy, but it was never a third world economy either.  It was always somewhere in between, and this was reflected in its GDP and general standard of living.  Not as good as say the US, UK or Germany but not like an Albania, Bulgaira or Yugoslavia either.  And it would probably stay that way for the foreseeable future.  It takes decades to really lift living standards in any nation.

 

But, the EU has managed to slash Greece's GDP by 25% in less than 7 years.  Quite an achievement.  Vote yes for more!  Don't even get me started on how they've belittled us (of no real relevance in realpolitik) and their stupid immigration rules (highly relevant).

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Scum, commie, choke. Great to see you get such a kick out of the suffering. And this isn't the first time you've used colorful language like this. You are special. You should ask your therapist for a refund. You remind me of Nurse Ratched, especially since you used the "choke" description. Great scene.

Are you even Greek ? I'm beginning to think you're a Skopian or Turk that just comes onto these forums to troll.

Well said. I can accept a poster rationally arguing for one way or the other. It's a passionate, emotional and immediate set of issues with the ramifications impacting on the Greek nation and her citizens for generations.

Gyros is a troll. Plain and simple. I don't understand the angle of his posts. I actually now think that the guy isn't a Greek at all. I'm not wasting my time with him.

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The Greek civil war was indeed about the direction of the country. But, let me tell you, since then there's no left and right in Greece, excluding the fringe parties of the KKE and the fascists, which are marginal and won't govern. All the other parties behave the same way with small variations. All use the state mechanism for patronizing. Their policies are in essence the same.  Now, the interesting question is why....

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The Greek civil war was indeed about the direction of the country. But, let me tell you, since then there's no left and right in Greece, excluding the fringe parties of the KKE and the fascists, which are marginal and won't govern. All the other parties behave the same way with small variations. All use the state mechanism for patronizing. Their policies are in essence the same.  Now, the interesting question is why....

 

I agree, I think it's probably 5% on either side that are "hard" core.

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Actually there isn't. Again, if you actually visited Greece - which clearly and painfully obviously you don't, you wouldn't keep falling down and scraping your face each time you post. Very few Greeks blame the left for the current and past economic problems in Greece. Greeks who tend to blame the left have been educated outside Greece - in more centrist countries. Most Greeks are still trying to understand how over-unionisation destroyed the Piraeus dockyards. 

 

You're flailing about all over the place.  I have been to Greece but that is besides the point.  I do live in a "centrist" country, and again, that is besides the point, but if I don't answer your points, other posters might think you know what you're talking about.

 

As athinaios said in post #413, there is very little difference between the main stream parties in Greece.  To me they are the same and had essentially the same policies whether it was PASOK or ND in charge.  But when you talk about what is wrong with Greece and how it got that way, you always blame "the left".  Always.  At least that's the way I perceive your posts.  Maybe if you tried being a bit more neutral ...

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Actually I stopped reading here because it is the point. You seem desperately and aggressively out of touch with what Greeks in Greece think. Greece is a leftist country by Western standards. ND, PASOK, SYRIZA - none of them would be considered even centrist in most civilised countries so to say blaming the left is 'very very Greek' - it shows that you are just as extreme as gyros - the poster who offends your sensitivities the most.

 

Now clearly your experiences in Greece are limited, but there are no excuses not to visit and learn what Greeks really think. 

 

- You should have kept reading, you missed the best part ;)

 

- Gyros and I are very different.  Take my word for it.

 

- "Greece is a leftist country by Western standards".  No s%$#! sherlock.

 

- Were one of your grand parents communists ?

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- Gyros has attacked Greeks in Greece - you have personally attacked gyros - a forum member. I am afraid I won't take you word for anything.

 

- Greece is a leftist country by Western standards. So to state - 'it is very very Greek to blame the left' is inaccurate concerning the majority of Greeks in Greece and inaccurate in accordance with how they vote also. Greece has been on a downward economic path since the fall of the Junta. Nothing to do with fascism trumping communism. It was the simple fact that the Junta were capitalist and invited business and investment to Greece.

 

 

Easy on the hyperbole.  Gyros hasn't "attacked" anyone.  He stated his opinions, as have I.  The guy gets off on the conditions in Greece.

 

As for the Junta, I would vote for them in a heart beat if they had as a policy replacing the Euro with a new currency.  Heck, I'd even vote Golden Dawn if that was their policy.  That's how badly I feel about Greece's predicament.

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So you don't see SYRIZA as a leftist party?

 

In rhetoric (or official ideology), perhaps, but in reality from ND-Pasok-Syriza, (older center parties, etc), have all governed the same. All have used the state mechanism to promote same goals & policies, tilted to their own voters. It's even more obvious when you examine the municipalities, whereas almost every party has governed, from extreme right to extrem left.

 

A major difference between right and left parties (in the western world) is how the see the role of government--how much intervention and to what end. In Greece there hasn't been such distinction in reality. You can call it ERT or NERIT, it's all the same! :artist:

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