greece The Greek Economy Thread

[Koro]

I'm with js on this one. Always preferred public services over private services operating for profit. My opinions on this debate don't differ whether its in the UK or Greece, or whether the economy is strong or weak. Its a classic left vs right wing argument, one that the right has been winning over the last 25 years or so across Europe.

 

Anyway back on topic. I think it says something when even David f**king Cameron, Mr. Austerity himself, says that Greece may be better of leaving the Euro:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jun/26/cameron-told-eu-leader-greek-exit-from-euro-may-be-best-option

[gyros]

This was a good article in the NY Times on how Greece isn't going to be the next Argentina

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/26/business/an-echo-of-argentina-in-greek-debt-crisis.html?_r=0

[gyros]

It sounds like a referendum for July 5th.  This government is a clown show.  Why didn't they just have one in April and be done with it.  It shows how worthless these communist scumbags are.  The negotiations on their part were a complete failure and now they are backed into a corner.  All this wasting time and "We are close to coming to an agreement" nonsense since March tanked the economy even more.  Let the Greek people vote on July 5th.  Do they want to export cotton and fish and live on 300 euros a month or keep the Euro and make 600 Euros a month.

Edited June 26, 2015 by gyros

[Akritis_1944]

Ah gyros you have no clue.

Tsipras calls the bluff on these gangster banksters. SYRIZA has more of an idea than generations of corrupt politicians.

[gyros]

Ah gyros you have no clue.

Tsipras calls the bluff on these gangster banksters. SYRIZA has more of an idea than generations of corrupt politicians.

 

Please enlighten me.  What bluff ?

[RED SHERIFF]

the way the public service operates is important and to have ideological questions ob profit v services, is a typical greek diversion tactic...we greeks are masters of this...clouding issues with irrelevant historical skewed bias views....

 

I am a Public Servant in a senior position who manages staff...I can assure there is a high level of accountability and responsibility...

staff are held accountable and expected to uphold certain values.....they are perfmance managed...and when the Union gets involved...there are rules that the union is aware must be followed...there is no mass protests and ideological political grandstanding leading to riots and strikes..

 

the Greek public service is a totally different beast..  no accountability,not efficient, not streamlined...

 

@bananas

 

unfortunately the geek left v right issue is a major part of this and has controlled the collective psyche of the nation for 60 years....we are still paying for it...

[Koro]

This referendum goes back to the old question of whether you want a representative democracy (govn makes decisions for the people) or a direct democracy (people make decisions through referendums). Direct is of course more democratic and something the traditional establishment fears.I personally prefer referendums because my economic views are left-wing, while some of my social views are right-wing, so I find it hard to ever identify with a party.

 

This is only one referendum and Greece isn't going to turn into Switzerland and hold one every week, but this is still pretty significant. Although I would have rather Tsipras just left the Euro when he got into office, hey he is Tsipras after all and not me. Now let the people decide.

[RED SHERIFF]

you gotta ask the question....

 

 given that Tsipra and Syriza were very vocal several years ago regarding EZ.....Why are they so firm now in wanting to stay in?

[gyros]

People are lining up at ATM's tonight.  Grocery stores are going to get cleared tomorrow.  The EU is withdrawing the latest proposal so they can't have a referendum on something that isn't in play.  Hospitals in Greece don't even have cotton.  But hey what do I know, the Greeks voted this guy in.  Just a typical communist moron that is turning Greece into a typical communist wasteland.  The pony tailed 35 year old unemployed philosophers love Cuba and Venezuela.  Well you'll be living it soon.

Edited June 27, 2015 by gyros

[gyros]

Gas stations are getting cleaned out, ATM's are getting emptied, grocery stores are getting ravaged.  It shows you how much confidence the people have in this 1974 Moscow student government they have.  The spineless Tsipras doesn't even have the balls to make a decision.  Hey, you got elected with your mandate by the people so step up and say "no" and move the country to the Drachma instead he's a typical communist coward hiding behind a "referendum".  

 

I can't believe how stupid the Greek population is.  We all called this months ago and we don't live there.  What a shameful country.  The only thing they have going for them is the nice weather at this point.  Other than that, they are F***ed for years and years.

[gyros]

This gets even better.  Syriza wants a 1 month extension of the bailout but wants everyone to vote "No".  I bet these guys couldn't run a souvlaki stand.  We lost any respect we had with the world with this bunch of morons.  

[Bananas]

Gas stations are getting cleaned out, ATM's are getting emptied, grocery stores are getting ravaged.  It shows you how much confidence the people have in this 1974 Moscow student government they have.  The spineless Tsipras doesn't even have the balls to make a decision.  Hey, you got elected with your mandate by the people so step up and say "no" and move the country to the Drachma instead he's a typical communist coward hiding behind a "referendum".  

 

I can't believe how stupid the Greek population is.  We all called this months ago and we don't live there.  What a shameful country.  The only thing they have going for them is the nice weather at this point.  Other than that, they are F***ed for years and years.

 

In one alternate universe, Kostas, won the lotto.  Everyone at the local greek community also learned about it.  He wasn't sure what to do, so decided to not attend the community function, like he has been for the last 30 years.  Everyone said, look at Kosta the manga.  He's too good for us now!

 

In a second alternate universe, Kostas, won the lotto.  Everyone at the local greek community also learned about it.  He wasn't sure what to do, so decided to attend the community function, like he has been for the last 30 years, but not to make a show of winning big.  Instead, he would behave the way he has for the last 30 years.  Everyone said, look at Kosta the tight arse.  What a tsigouni!

 

In a third alternate universe, Kostas, won the lotto.  Everyone at the local greek community also learned about it.  He wasn't sure what to do, so decided to attend the community function, like he has been for the last 30 years, and to pay the bill for everyone attending.  After all, he's won big and wanted to share.  Everyone said, look at Kosta the big man.  Thinks he's a big shot now!

 

You call Tsipras spineless, and yet his actions are the opposite.  What he's done, even if you don't agree with it, are not the actions of a spineless man.  And, if he'd caved in at the last to the EU, you'd still call him spineless, and worse.  You probably would have mocked him and made jokes about how Merkel put him in his place.

 

I don't necessarily agree with Tsipras's idea of a referendum, and it could backfire on him big time.  If the EU don't supply additional funding this week (and it would be a miracle if they did) and he can't get the referendum to go ahead, he will look just as foolish as Papandreou did not so long ago.

 

I don't believe Tsipras is an idiot and he's taking the gamble with the hope it goes ahead.  A calculated gamble which may work.  This is where legalities of the constitution etc. come into play and we'll have to see how it plays out this week.  If he gets the result he wants, he can either bargain harder with the EU, who probably at this stage wouldn't even want to be in the same room as him, or he can begin preparing for Greece to start using a new currency.  This I believe is his intention, but it's just my opinion.  I suspect for that to happen he would need at minimum a second referendum.

 

But you know what, it doesn't matter, because as you said "I can't believe how stupid the Greek population is".  I don't think it would matter to you how they vote.  In your mind, they are all F***ed anyway.  In an alternate universe ...

Edited June 27, 2015 by Bananas

[gyros]

How can he bargain harder?  Isn't obvious that the Europeans are sick of the Greeks lying and stalling? The other thing is why all the lying to everyone in Greece.  He kept telling the people that a deal is close on a daily basis for the last 3-4 months.  Why not have the referendum a month ago when they told him too?  A head of state or even a head of a newspaper stand should be honest and up front.  They should not play games with everyone.  Greece has taken 1000 steps backwards in regards to a lot of things and there is no country in the world that will trust us.  We are liars and crooks.  We play games and walk out on meetings after 45 minutes.  We waste everyone's time.  We aren't trustworthy.  This is not how civilized people do business.  But we aren't civilized.  Shame on the banks for lending us money.  They should have sunk us back then to teach us a lesson. 

[zenon]

Tsipras had a mandate from the people to challenge the austerity measures implemented by the troika etc and meekly accepted by the previous governments in Greece.

The fact is the measures were too severe and were strangling the country creating a great deal of poverty and suffering to mostly the sections of the population who did not cause the problem in the first place.

Take away all the financial buzz words and other financial jargon and a trained monkey can see that pruning a tree too much kills it or at the very least makes it grow very slowly. The measures forced upon Greece are too severe and killing the patient.

I don't think anyone can dispute that the Greek economy and tax collecting needs reforming but this will not be accomplished by destroying the country.

It was not Tsipras or syriza who caused this situation it was the previous governments and the people of the middle class upwards who refused to pay their taxes.

Tsipras has been negotiating for weeks now and to all intents and purposes has not received anything.

He has finally been backed into a corner by the Europeans who have refused to budge so if he accepted the proposals he would have been going against the mandate given to him by the electorate. So he is going back to the people and saying I have not been able to reach an agreement which would reduce austerity so I need to speak with you again, ask your opinion.

Don't forget he is in a coalition politics is a tinderbox there at the moment. Social cohesion must be maintained as much as possible.

The Europeans want to continue kicking the tin can down the road instead of providing a plan which will allow Greece to grow and therefore better make the financial repayments. The country is not going to pay anything back if all the economy implodes, all the trained and young people go and work in other countries!

As for Greeks being liars and crooks etc. they are no worse then anyone else. Unfortunately they are not as good as some in hiding it. Historically and in the present there are many examples of crooked and lying going on around the world. If fact there is so much that I do not think anyone needs to provide examples. We could all draw up a list of our own.

[Bananas]

How can he bargain harder?  Isn't obvious that the Europeans are sick of the Greeks lying and stalling? The other thing is why all the lying to everyone in Greece.  He kept telling the people that a deal is close on a daily basis for the last 3-4 months.  Why not have the referendum a month ago when they told him too?  A head of state or even a head of a newspaper stand should be honest and up front.  They should not play games with everyone.  Greece has taken 1000 steps backwards in regards to a lot of things and there is no country in the world that will trust us.  We are liars and crooks.  We play games and walk out on meetings after 45 minutes.  We waste everyone's time.  We aren't trustworthy.  This is not how civilized people do business.  But we aren't civilized.  Shame on the banks for lending us money.  They should have sunk us back then to teach us a lesson. 

I don't know man. I think you need therapy.

[Kef]

The problem with Tsipras and his government is the same problem with just about every other Greek political leader, they refuse to make the big decisions when their political future is at stake. Elections were held 5 months ago and they received their mandate. Calling for a referendum is a cop-out, placing the burden on the people as opposed to the government the people elected. The people elected you now make the tough decisions that you think are in the best interest of the country without worrying about your political future. Unfortunately the political system in Greece is incapable or unwilling to do so.

Even more disturbing is that the proposed solution is to further choke the private sector- the only portion of the economy that is capable of producing something, so the public sector can remain the bloated resource-sucking entity it has been. That is just as counter-productive as the memoranda which contain no legitimate means for debt relief. Events are truly taking a tragic turn.

[zenon]

It is not a cop out. They won on a mandate to reduce austerity. They then entered the 'negotiations' which turned out to be nothing more then the euro group dictating what Greece must do. Faced with that he goes back to the people any says they refuse to agree to reducing the austerity they want to continue with this financial small minded and pigheaded cruelty do you want me to agree to more of this same crap or shall we together tell them where to go. He is reinforcing the countries views and in a way strengthening his hand.

I'm not left wing by inclination but syriza and Tsipras is a w

Come change to the usual two dynasties with their cronies who have ruled Greece badly for decades.

[js1000]

I asked about your grandparents political beliefs, you could have just said 'no comment' instead of all this guff.  I thought it was the only the UK political class that refuse to answer simple questions..

 

Anyway, I think I have the answer.

please accept my apologies for all the 'guff' i wrote, but your question was so utterly pathetic and pointless it really didn't deserve a response.

 

 

 

I have a question lads, what benefit will there be in declaring bankruptcy and going back to the drachma? 

From what I understand we're screwed either way right now but keen to know if there is any positive outlook for the future if & when we're to fall out of the Eurozone 

Well Greece can't continue on the same path, if they do then creditors will plunder every resource/asset Greece has got and continue to impoverish its people, they have to take the route Iceland took, by declaring bankruptcy and making their own laws without outside interference and having their own currency they can start to grow their economy slowly, short term pain long term gain. 

[js1000]

Name names, lets find out who these nasty 'lefty' 'communist' 'political schizophrenic' scumbags are. I guess they must be the offspring of communists.

 

Weird though because i haven't seen a single post on here attacking 'capitalism' or championing an 'anti capitalist ticket' 

[gyros]

One person has managed to crash the economy to depths not seen before.

 

In the middle of tourism season, the country literally has no money and tourists are canceling plans left and right.  The only way we make money and they screw it up.

 

Now we have a sketchy referendum vote with a tricky worded question about accepting terms that don't even exist on paper.

 

Greeks are idiots.  They deserve this.  The years of the Kaffenio talk have made them think they were smarter than everyone else.  The world's scholars on political, financial, and social affairs. I still remember the cockiness of the people in 2005 after the Olympics.  Now they are pathetic beggers.

 

 

No country is going to save Greece either.  Who wants to be burden with dead weight.

Edited June 28, 2015 by gyros

[gyros]

If the Greek people vote yes, that means the Syriza SCUM have to leave office.  I don't see why they would stay there especially if they are against staying in the Euro.  It would make no logical sense in any civilized country well except one...

[Koro]

Name names, lets find out who these nasty 'lefty' 'communist' 'political schizophrenic' scumbags are. I guess they must be the offspring of communists.

 

Weird though because i haven't seen a single post on here attacking 'capitalism' or championing an 'anti capitalist ticket' 

 

I'll happily criticise capitalism if you want. Capitalism creates greed and inequality. Some will still try and deflect the blame of this crisis upon communism, even though Greece has been capitalist for a long time and the EU is very capitalistic and neo-liberal.

 

@Gyros the "scum" do not have to leave if the referendum doesn't go their way. Yes it may make it more likely, but its not a proper vote of no confidence.

 

Even if Syriza fall, I don't think all the Greek voters are simply going to go back to the old EU cronies at PASOK and ND. I think such a dire situation could make people even more radical and vote Golden Dawn or KKE.

[Kef]

The Greek political system purports to be a representative democracy. The "mandate" was given 6 months ago now have the fortitude to exercise it. Make no mistake, the referendum is a political gambit with self-preservation at its core. While the Troika proposals fall short because they do not provide for debt relief, Tsipras should have rejected it out of hand and moved forward with whatever plan (if any) they have for the future. Preserving the public sector at the continued expense of the private sector will not be the answer.

[King_Katsouranis]

Click the PDF at the bottom of the page for the proposals Tsipras walked out on.

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-5270_en.htm

They really are not that unreasonable. 

Question for people like JS - Wouldn't you rather see Greece on a path like some of the Scandinavian nations? A lot of their success is based on policy that is not to dissimilar from the proposals outlined above.

[gyros]

The banks and the stock exchange are not opening tomorrow.

 

Let the chaos begin tomorrow.

 

Now reading banks closed for the whole week.  

 

Thanks Syriza.  This is on you.  We are turning into a shithole country.

Edited June 28, 2015 by gyros