Jump to content
Phantis Forums

The Greek Economy Thread


Recommended Posts

The hero for the pony tailed communists is about to speak in a few minutes to announce this.

 

I'm guessing he will blame the EU for blackmail, humiliation, etc...

 

This guy is using the playbook of Hugo Chavez and the Greek people will hopefully wake up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm guessing he will blame the EU for blackmail

 

Yes we will and he is correct as that is exactly what this is.  The NWO bankers are cutting off funds, forcing the banks to shut down to institute panic and fear in the general public.  Tsipras called their bluff and now they are pissed so they are using the age old tactic of fear to get people to vote in favour of new deal and keep Greece aboard the S.S. Titantic Europa.  This shows how easy malleable humans are, you get can them to do or believe anything you want just by using something as simple as fear.

  • Like it 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes we will and he is correct as that is exactly what this is.  The NWO bankers are cutting off funds, forcing the banks to shut down to institute panic and fear in the general public.  Tsipras called their bluff and now they are pissed so they are using the age old tactic of fear to get people to vote in favour of new deal and keep Greece aboard the S.S. Titantic Europa.  This shows how easy malleable humans are, you get can them to do or believe anything you want just by using something as simple as fear.

 

Greece needs reforms.  They spend more money than they bring in.  The banks aren't going to keep on giving away free money to support the spending habits of drunken sailor.  Either get in line with the rest of the world or figure it out yourself with drachmas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So in other words, the day after the referendum. This means that either (1) the majority votes yes and Tsipras has to get on his knees to beg the forgiveness of the creditors (assuming we don't default and the world goes to s%$#! after the 30th), or (2) they vote no, we drop the euro, and the bank holiday is extended until the new currency is worked out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Well Greece can't continue on the same path, if they do then creditors will plunder every resource/asset Greece has got and continue to impoverish its people, they have to take the route Iceland took, by declaring bankruptcy and making their own laws without outside interference and having their own currency they can start to grow their economy slowly, short term pain long term gain.

 

Exactly my thinking as well js1000. 

 

Its time for another big OXI, like the one delivered by Metaxas back in 1940.  Someone with balls to stand up to these corrupt bankers and eurocrats and tell them to shove it.  OXI to your austerity measures that are doing more damage to the economy then good, OXI to your crooked loans that are going to the bankers to recoup the money they lost from all the p*****es they did instead of going to the suffering populace.  In essence they need to regain their soverignty, control their own destiny instead of having others control it for them.  They need to jail the bankers and corrupt politicans that are responsible for the country getting to this terrible state just like Iceland jailed their bankers.  This will be the first real step on the road to change, making those who are responsible pay for their actions. 

 

Once they are free from the shackles of the IMF & the EU the rebuliding of this great nation can begin.  You need a massive overhaul of the system of governance in Greece as well as an overhaul of the mentality of the people- the good times are over, they need to realize that they have to change their mindset about taxes and about wanting to get something for nothing.

 

 

Awesome speech by the great

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cool heads will prevail!

 

If that is the result then it will mean that fear has prevailed.  The government needs to outline exactly what the ramifications of voting yes or no are so people are clear on what their vote really means.  If they vote to remain in the EU then they deserve the fate that will await them, namely continuing suffering and poverty.

 

new elections now

 

What good are elections going to do?!  They are going to turn into a joke if they keep having elections every 5 months.  I don't understand why all the hatred towards Syriza, they are not to blame for the mess Greece is in, that is all on the shoulders of PASOK & ND, the ones who have been governing the country for decades.  The majority of the population despise these two parties, so if they hold elections again who is going to win?! 

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the people vote yes, you need new elections.  You can't have an elected government that doesn't want to negotiate and is loudly telling everyone to vote no lead a country where the majority want yes (If that happens which I think will)

 

Also, I have to laugh at the people who are proudly telling everyone to vote no and have no idea what a catastrophe a default will be.  The average pension in Greece is around 830 Euros right now while in Romania and Bulgaria its $250 Euros.  It doesn't take a math genius to figure out you will have one third the spending power and still be without a job.

  • Like it 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If the people vote yes, you need new elections. You can't have an elected government that doesn't want to negotiate and is loudly telling everyone to vote no lead a country where the majority want yes (If that happens which I think will)

Also, I have to laugh at the people who are proudly telling everyone to vote no and have no idea what a catastrophe a default will be. The average pension in Greece is around 830 Euros right now while in Romania and Bulgaria its $250 Euros. It doesn't take a math genius to figure out you will have one third the spending power and still be without a job.

When I become King next week you will be my finance minister.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The average pension in Greece is around 830 Euros right now while in Romania and Bulgaria its $250 Euros

 

You think if they stay in the Euro that the pensions will remain where they are?!  Not likely, once the IMF is done with all the cuts they want to implement, the pensions will probably be done around the same level as Albania.

 

HellasHab, it will be open slather, because the people will be hating all the parties now

 

You got that right, who the heck will be left to vote for if they hold elections again- what a mess Greece has become.

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As stated by a more perceptive member, the Greek civil war is still being played out. If someone has come to their anti-capitalist, corrupt bank/politicians beliefs naturally, there is at least a chance for debate. In my experience, when you are dealing with a 3rd generation Greek communist.. all you get are strawmen and insults. We saw that already on this thread when leftist members were questioning the basic humanity of other members concerning Greek hospitals and the lack of medicines - while  ignoring the fact the Syriza government just spent a fortune rehiring a corrupt and inefficient ERT :unsure:. It is this kind of political schizophrenia that is not learnt, it is bred. 

 

We have heard of the difficulties for a human to invest a penny of his money in Greece, yet we have one member believing corrupt politicians are the problem. Whether Greece has 1000 corrupt politicians, or 0. In fact every country I have ever lived in has deeply corrupt politicians. Greece can't function on an anti-capitalist ticket in 2015 in the EU. The only way out is job creation, industry and foreign investment. 

 

Now as we can see from this debate, the majority agree with this, however the 1 or 2 who don't, shout loudest and most aggressively to other members. 

 

Reaper, Reaper, oh man.  The civil war did end quite a while ago.  Yes, there are lots of people within Greece that still have (I believe unrealistic) views of how Greece should be this leftist utopia, but just because that is the case, it doesn't mean there is still a war going on.  It's just a clash of ideologies, just like you can get in any nation.  You seem to have a real problem with anyone not agreeing with you and resort to hyperbole and insults.  So, anyone that doesn't agree with you is a schizophrenic with one or more communist grandparents and was bred that way ?  :lol:

 

You then say that the majority agree with you.  I don't think so.  There's probably 4 or 5 that fully agree with you.  I think it's more like 50/50 based on the posts on this thread.  You then say there's 1 or 2 who don't, who shout aggressively to other members.  There's definitely more than that, that disagree with you (and that's ok) and they are not the one's getting personal and asking if they have communist grandparents.  You started that crap.

 

Back on topic.

 

I think the referendum is a good idea.  It's time for the Greek people to decide what they want.  They can't have it both ways.  It's either reject the austerity plan or don't.

 

If they reject it, they need to understand that this gives extra moral authority to Tsipras to go to the edge of the cliff in his negotiations with the EU.  They also need to understand that there is a risk the EU has had enough, and could force a Grexit by just not funding Greece.

 

If they decide to stick with the austerity, then Tsipras and his government are in trouble and have lost moral authority to negotiate on behalf of Greece.

 

Either way, it's time for the people to decide.  Interesting times ....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Blackmail???? Have you read what was proposed.

it is hardly unreasonable 

 

The EU's position is unreasonable.  They were already very close, with the difference being only 0.5% of GDP.  In the end, the EU was insisting on a small increase to the VAT and another small cut to pensions.  Tsipras refused and they wouldn't budge.  The EU obviously knew that politically Tsipras couldn't agree to these terms but they still insisted on them anyway.

 

I don't even know why them call them negotiations.  Nothing is negotiated.  It's basically the EU specifying what they want, and if Greece doesn't agree the EU gets upset and the media spin begins.

 

EU:  Greece, bend over.

Greece: No.

EU:  I said, bend over.

Greece: No.

EU:  These damn Greeks never listen!

 

Where as before Tsipras it was

 

EU:  Greece, bend over.

Greece: Is that far enough ?

EU:  A little more.

Greece:  Far enough ?

EU:  That'll do.  These Greeks are so nice!

Edited by Bananas
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This theme can not be decided by a referendum. People (at least the great majority) do not know the ins and outs of this economic mess and they will only see the short-term implication for their pockets. The last referendum was in 1974 and was clear: King of no king. No (real) money involved.

 

Politicians should take their responsibility. Do what you have to do for the country. Even as it have to hurt badly for a short period. Now the PM wants a No, but he does not have the guts to say so. I guess his mother called his girlfriends when he wanted to break up?!?! The people get a referendum. And they get indoctrinated. by the PM. Is this what democracy is about?

 

People in Greece have lived above their station. Money everywhere. People have withdrawn the lost months several billions of Euro's from the banks. Early retirement with a bonus (a neighbour in Greece told me a few years ago: I bought a Mercedes of my bonus (efapax in Greek, I do not know the right word for it in English or Dutch as this is unfamiliar for me) now that I can afford it and can enjoy is). (Nearly) Everybody a new house when they got married from their parents. Everybody has got his own gorafi at the village of birth. Mortgages are rare.

 

I do not envy the Greek citizens. But I have to pay mortgage for 30 years and have to hope that my house has the value when the term ends. I pay a lot of taxes. My pensions have been downsized and I have to work longer than expected (at least till I am 67 but rumours here tell me that it might be 70 at that time of retirement because they want to connect the retirement with the life expectancy). Apart from the latter I am used to the situation as it is for me. And I am fine with it. It's the way it is since I am born and more important since I graduaded and work. Most Europeans are used to it as the system was like this for years. 

 

Greece needs to step in this new era. The leaders in front. Negotiate, admit the reasonable demands and/but in the mean time teach your citizens that these reforms are needed to survive.            

  • Like it 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

A lot of interesting debate and banter...

 

@koro

 

Greece is not a capitalist country..

 

 

@bananas

 

yes ideological ideas are in all societies...in Greece though there is a 'kafeneio' mentality and a hard anti West attitude...  very 'ponytail' left approach..straight out of 1975 education....much of it is fueled by Civil war left overs.....just listen to KKE for a few minutes....they go on about WW2 Nazi crimes and Capitalist pigs..etc..these guys have serious Air time in Greek media..and they believe this s%$#!...

 

 

I didn't know that Metaxas and OXI had an 120 year existence?   good way to stir emotions blend 1821 with 1940...

 

I keep hearing about sovereignty and democracy.....a good way to get people emotional....a nice way to deflect and look at Harry Klyn for solutions....

 

Maybe Harry Potter next week......Harry Mavrias could not defeat Faroe Islands.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dutch Eagle, I just don't agree that the people are not capable of deciding.  We're not all that stupid are we ?  Or only the Greeks in the diaspora are capable ?  Or not even them ?  The people deserve to have a say.  This isn't a normal or typical situation they are in.  If the people are not fit to have a say in a referendum, then why bother even having normal elections ?  Just hand over all decision making to an bureaucracy that's never elected.

 

Red Sheriff, KKE only gets around 5% of the vote, give or take, so even though there are a lot of left leaning voters in Greece, it's a minority that still have hard communist beliefs.

 

Having said that I don't think there is a single poster in this forum that doesn't agree that Greece is in a mess.  None of us agree with 10 year degrees, or the crazy unions, or the retirements at 47 and all the other guff that has collectively ruined Greece.  What everyone disagrees on is the best way forward.  Basically, with the Euro or with a new currency.  That is the real question.  And, I don't think sticking with the Euro is the best way forward in the long run.  The EU is just too inflexible and was never designed with any mechanisms to help in a situation such as this.  Right now, they EU is quite content with austerity and 25% unemployment for the next 20+ years, whereas the Greek people are not.

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

This theme can not be decided by a referendum. People (at least the great majority) do not know the ins and outs of this economic mess and they will only see the short-term implication for their pockets.

if you're right and people vote for the short term implications for their pockets then they'll vote to go with the EU proposals because any exit will cause a lot of short term hardship, which in my view is well worth it. Seems that you're saying people are too stupid to vote, its a view shared by the EU commissioners who changed the new EU constitution into the Lisbon 'treaty' (which was pretty much identical to the constitution) when dutch and french voters voted no and made the Irish vote again when they rejected it because they'd voted 'wrongly'

 

 

I do not envy the Greek citizens. But I have to pay mortgage for 30 years and have to hope that my house has the value when the term ends. I pay a lot of taxes. My pensions have been downsized and I have to work longer than expected (at least till I am 67 but rumours here tell me that it might be 70 at that time of retirement because they want to connect the retirement with the life expectancy). Apart from the latter I am used to the situation as it is for me. And I am fine with it. It's the way it is since I am born and more important since I graduaded and work. Most Europeans are used to it as the system was like this for years. 

You pay a lot of taxes your retirement day gets put further and further back and you're fine with it? why? why should your pension be downsized what have you personally done to deserve that? to me thats a liberty not something i'd be 'fine' with while the EU doesn't even know where its spent a huge chunk of its money. They get away with it because people just shrug their shoulders and say 'its just how it is' lets have some accountability from those running the EU with a breakdown of their spending and some auditing before they dare to go anywhere near my pension. Retirement ages rise and we wonder why youth unemployment is so high. 

 

 

I keep hearing about sovereignty and democracy.....a good way to get people emotional....a nice way to deflect and look at Harry Klyn for solutions....

what's wrong with running your own affairs and being democratic?

 

 

I don't see this as a left/right capitalist/communist debate, SYRIZA (i believe, but could be wrong) got elected not because they are 'lefties' but because they were the only party prepared to stand up to the EU and their demands to impoverish greeks. If SYRIZA didn't exist and a right leaning party were prepared to leave the EU (or refuse to be dictated to by them)  i'm sure they'd have been elected. 

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Bananas

 

KKE only get 5%...yes....Syriza though are a direct spin off of KKE...They are simply a 'marketable version of KKE'

 

@js1000

 

Dutch Eagle has outlined how modern progressive system works and how other nations move forward....

 

I live in a country that I will work for 40 years and i will not receive a pension.....But the country and its economy is going very well...

 

I am getting the impression that a lot of what we are trying to restore in the name of democracy and sovereignty and the systems that got us in the s%$#! in the first place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...