greece The Greek Economy Thread

[RED SHERIFF]

been waiting for this...3 fires started .. 'Greek Forrest FIRES' ARE THE ULTIMATE 'PROTEST' SIGN FROM THE COMMIES and anarchists....

 

 

Notice we haven't had many of these 'events' since Tsipra took over...surprisingly they start now....that Che Tsipara looks to have sold his soul...

[Bananas]

Enough of this Russia talk. Back on topic.

I'm not surprised that there are anarchist actions now and to come. After all, this is Greece we're talking about. The land where they can't even get hooliganism in stadiums under control, when all it would take is some video surveillance and actual meaningful prosecutions.

Having said that, Tsipras should not have agreed to the terms of the EU. And the reason is, it's not the platform he got voted in on. I'm not arguing about whether he did or didn't have a choice, that is a discussion for another time. What I am saying is he said if he got voted in, that he would "end" the austerity. Then, he holds a referendum. And the people vote Oxi.

At this point, he has no option but to go through with the plan. He has to, or so you'd think. However he comes out of the meeting with the EU having effectively ceded all ground. Politically, this was a bad move, as well as ethically.

He would have been better off walking calmly out of the meeting saying "I can't agree to these terms, and the EU won't negotiate, therefore I am resigning". At least this way he could have argued he didn't lie or screw the people. Hand over government to whoever wants it, but don't allow your signature to be the one that appears on the 3rd bailout.

The EU would look bad since they effectively broke an elected government by using the ECB to cut liquidity, and Tsipras doesn't look like a hypocrite and an amateur. Which is how he looks now ...

I don't know. Maybe I'm reading it all wrong but if he truly felt the deal was awful then he should not have signed. PASOK suffered badly in the previous election. Will the same happen to Syriza in the next ? I imagine their one shot in government is over. I can see PASOK picking up a few votes also. Not enough to get back into power but more than the election just past for sure.

I wonder how XA would go if they stopped the violent racist stuff and instead ran on a platform of "end the austerity or Grexit".

As for Tsipras, he should enjoy this time. It will be his last. And he should probably start siphoning money to a Swiss bank account while he can.

[Leros5]

Pia m*****s**na valane foties Pali? It's all over the news

[gyros]

The average Greek citizen IQ is very low.  The facts speak for themselves on the wacked out ideas and thoughts people have.  No logic.

[RED SHERIFF]

@aek66

 

well said.....

 

 

if its not panagias doing?  its the fault of the evil west because they are jealous of us.....they want to see us suffering..

 

the Sydney and Chicago based admiration for the Serb food and wine festivals has manifested itself with 100 year old kafeneio talk..  add to it the strong 'left element' in the  socio political landscape...Some still talk about 'Balkan Federations'??? 

 

I got blasted a few times and branded a junta radical for blaming much of our ills to bitter and twisted grandchildren of the defeated in the civil war...

 

Too many confuse points in history and anecdotal conversations with Zoran and a beer festival.....Zoran may also have a few Skops in the family tree and shares beers with him too....Zoran may also have a cousin Goran from Split in the family they all get along...yet we seem to somehow know what's best....and think the 'brotherhood' will save us..

not sure what I have in common with Boris from Moscow? we don't even celebrate Christmas on the same day...

Edited July 17, 2015 by RED SHERIFF

[J1078]

I agree, we do look like we are from those F***ed up terrorist countries in the Middle East, we need to stop this s%$#! and except our fate now, what's done is done, I do understand that all those people who voted OXI are pissed off and feel betrayed, but I'm sure most of those people who voted no do not want to leave the Euro. Bottom line we owe money and we need to pay our debt, like it or note we F***ed up and we had crooks still the money and not enforce any rules during the first two bail outs. So why would anybody trust us now? We need to get our s%$#! in order and start running the country like a business. Bottom line guys you can't run a country with out rules and nobody paying taxes, unfortunately this is a shock for Greek people, no more free ride, no more closing the stores and going to sleep no more Sunday business being closed, everyone needs to pay taxes, I'm in my early 30's and I have a mortgage, I pay property tax, I pay taxes out of my ass from my business and sometimes I work 7 days a week, all those people protesting now better wake up and realize they've been living in a fantasy world all these years, if Greece would have had proper regulations and rules they would not be in the position they are in today, a family of 5 go to the doctors and they would all use one persons Eka, a house is build with 2-3 levels for the children and no one every pays property tax. Give me a break guys, the Greek people need to wake the F*** up. I remember I needed some documents when I was in Greece and it took me 3 weeks just to speak to someone, the way the country has been run is a joke. I was very upset with the austerity package but Greece has only themselves to blame.

[Bananas]

If we go to the drackma, and America doesn't come to the rescue....Say goodbye to Greece!!! Venezuela has more resources than Greece, and cannot afford to import the bare essentials!!! Venezuela has 10 times the oil Greece has....But 80 percent is going to pay the Chinese debt.

If you think that Greece would actually be on their own, owning much more than Venezuela, Greece my friends, would be a place, we'll be all looking at and crying....If you love Greece....Don't think of the drackma scenario!!!

 

How did Greece survive before when they had the dpx ?  Or was I dreaming.  As it is, Greece is now a vassal state ... without a shot being fired, or a soldier landing on our land.  Complete and utter surrender.

 

I await with bated breath for conditions to improve now after this 3rd bail out.  Let's see how it turns out.

[gyros]

Its a vassal state because they are incapable of taking care of themselves.  Kind of like a judge takes a child away from a parent for being unfit parents.  Greece is an unfit country and its citizens are too stupid to figure it out.

[gyros]

Pains me to see Diaspora Greeks buy into Orthodox Brotherhoods FFS

 

What pains me even more is after the Russians told Cyprus to pound sand and then after they basically played Tsipras like a fool, they still think Russia is going to come to their rescue.  Seriously, what are they going to do... Open up a Lada factory.  Now the country is being burned down by more than likely Greeks.  Self destructive people and the lao is too busy coming up with kaffenio stories about German Jews taking over the country and how smart the Greeks are and everyone is jealous of them.  Greeks are basically the Arabs of Europe.

[js1000]

I really can't say anything to this.  You want Greece to continue the way it is and its a European conspiracy.  You think that billions of dollars a year in unpaid taxes is not a problem and the real culprits are in some youtube video your going to post tonight.  I just can't believe the Greek logic which unfortunately is carried by a percentage of the country.  No point in debating anything anymore with you.  Its the same conspiracy nonsense talk.

I love this post, classic, the evidence presented doesn't fit your narrative of Greeks being 'uncivilised stupid lazy tax dodging etc' so rather than embrace the evidence and debate you decide to scream 'conspiracy nonsense talk' and like a child 'not debating with you anymore' (despite the fact i never once used the term conspiracy) and at no point did i say i wanted Greece to continue the way it is, i'm really not sure what you're reading.

Meanwhile the Greek states ability to generate revenue is further diminished by privatisation/asset sales and you have no problem with that as long as pensions are cut and more tax is collected. 

Its like reading the comments section of a British paper when you post. 

Edited July 18, 2015 by js1000

[js1000]

to me, it's a combination of inferiority (hidden, naturally) and the delusional belief (loud & proud) that greece is important and is looked up to in the world. the belief that greece is important and admired by russia and russians is in direct proportion to the person's personal feelings about greece.

 

my personal opinion is that the russia and the russians laugh at us, find us a comical people - the arabs of europe. always there to be exploited because we keep invoking them in nationalistic voodoo rituals.

 

i was also right there. it all started with the serbs and the yugo wars. we try to talk geo-politics and how does greece benefit, and we get articles & responses that greek and serbian grandmothers baking cookies together at a church in chicago or an australian getting great vibes from serbs at a serb festival in melbourne. ridiculous, as ridiculous as the greeks' & cypriots' beliefs.

 

the cypriots went begging with hat in hand - also reminding the russians that the biggest depositors in cypriot banks were russians. 

 

no dice. 

 

less than 2 years later, the cypriots sign a deal giving the russians access to cypriot ports. what did cyprus get in return? the russians restructure a tiny $3 billion loan? they couldn't write that off for access to cypriot ports? the russians know we are kepatades and take advantage.

Having the 'Turkey stream' gas pipe going through Greece where Greece collect transit fees from Russia, lifting visa restrictions for Russians to come to Greece so they holiday/invest in Greece instead of Turkey and Egypt, and trading more with them selling them Greek produce etc benefit Greece, it has nothing to do with any sort of 'alliance' or 'orthodox brotherhood' or whether they like us or laugh at us, its about trying to generate revenue for Greece, which is becoming increasingly difficult under the European terms of privatisation and austerity. 

[js1000]

these are all nice thoughts - tiny pieces of practicality, but unfortunately, they do not fit into the spiritual context that the formerly bewildered and currently angry greek citizen possesses.

 

 - if greece lay where sicily currently lays, the russians wouldn't include us in anything. this is partnership by default. the russians have done more economically for the turks in the past 6 months, then they have done for greece in 200 years. 

 

 - when you are a member of a political & economic alliance, i'd say you go along with them with sanctions when a 3rd party is looking to shift borders and that 3rd party's proxy soldiers shoot down a commercial airliner. the formerly bewildered and currently angry greek citizen demands action against a 3rd party when cyprus was invaded, yet, in this case, sanctions are unfair and they hurt us.

 

we come off as massively hypocritical. this, not for the 1st time.

 

the past few months have seen some very good articles from western media. a recent article told us that a few top greek officials knew greece was headed for a fiscal shipwreck even before ez days. they were drowned out as party-poopers or sacked as threats to the status-quo. it's not the ez or eu bogeyman.

 

i do believe that once all the dust settles on this 3rd bailout, we will see debt relief. i had hoped tsipra & varoufaki could get some, but that was not politically convenient. 

2 points, where's the hypocrisy, i've said all along Greece shouldn't be in this political union that is the EU, hence they can trade with who they like be it Russia be Qatar be it anywhere so long as it benefits Greece so don't take the moral high ground regarding Russia, the US has a tainted recent history of meddling in other countries affairs, but we'd all be thrilled if they were a benefit to Greece in someway.           

 

Second point, as it was an open secret that Greece was heading for a fiscal shipwreck before even the EZ days then WHY WERE THEY ALLOWED TO JOIN IN THE FIRST PLACE? after all they didn't really meet the criteria set out for joining at the time. 

Now the EU dictate terms that if you don't like, your own banks won't have enough money in them for the country to function, we saw just the other week a construction project abandoned because the company couldn't pay workers because of capital controls on Greek banks. 

 

By the way did you know part of this deal calls for Greece to hand over 50 billion in public assets to a fund controlled by German KfW bank - run by finance minister Wolfgang Schaeuble - to be sold at fire sale prices. 

So who benefits from this deal? Because from what I see its not Greece. 

 

Js100....You're making good points, but at the end of the day Greece owed 360 billion dollars before the new arrangements.....The debt owed to countries must be paid back, the question is....Is it better paying off the debts being isolated using the drackma, or keeping the European course?

Lets look at it from a investors view point....Without Greece having reformed and having the proper structure, how can investors find ways for Greece to increase its revenues, so they can collect their debts faster, and be able to loosen austerity measures?

 

Dude in an earlier post you said Germany had their war debts cancelled, suddenly debts owed to countries must be paid back? My goodness the assets Greece has lost in exchange for this debt+interest is already too much. Investors don't care about increasing Greece's revenues - just their own - through taking revenue generating assets, the Greek people can take a jump as far as they're concerned.

 

The Greek government is nothing more than a bunch of administrators that implement orders from Brussels. 

Referendums/elections - pointless. 

[Dutch Eagle]

http://www.newsbomb.gr/politikh/news/story/608401/mitera-n-valavani-ego-sikosa-tis-200-000-eyro

Should we be surprised or disgusted?

[gyros]

This is an article from 1990

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/02/18/world/greeks-feel-the-pinch-as-two-us-bases-close.html

 

It just goes to show you how stupid the Greek people are.  Instead of being "western" and being friends with the US and other nations, they kicked them out and all of their money and want to befriend Cuba, Libya, Palestine, etc...  All the dead weights of the world.  The popular thing up until the crisis was to protest against the US because it was the US' fault.  Now its the Germans fault.  Greeks are brain dead.  Albanians and Turks are smart.  When the US comes, they open up their arms.  The Greeks are too good for everyone and throw rocks.

[Akritis_1944]

^ racist, illogical post. Not wasting my time.

[Bananas]

I don't believe the 50 billion is collateral.  I think the idea is to sell it off slowly and in theory it's not meant to be fire sale prices.  Also, the full 50 billion is not meant to be used for debt repayment but rather a portion of it will be used to help the economy grow.

 

At least, that's my understanding of it.  As to how it all pans out, time will tell.

[Bananas]

ECB going to turn the tap back on.  Tsipras and Co. doing what they are told.  The EU is a beautiful thing.

[gyros]

This obituary hits the spot on why the Greek Lao is brain dead

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/06/23/world/andreas-papandreou-dies-at-77-fiery-ambiguous-premier-dominatedgreek-politics.html

[gyros]

Another article written in 1985 in the NY Times on the brain dead Lao 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/04/07/magazine/papandreou-the-politics-of-anti-americanism.html

 

"Mr. Papandreou's tightrope diplomacy has infuriated his allies in Europe as well as America, but the United States (his home in the 1940's and 50's) has been the principal arena of his balancing act. He tells a large sector of the Greek public what they want to hear: Their country's problems are none of their doing; they have been created by outside forces led by the biggest force of them all, the United States."

Edited July 19, 2015 by gyros

[js1000]

the hypocrisy is when turkey invades cyprus and we demand sanctions against turkey, while russia - being on a recent land-grab spree and it's proxy soldiers shooting down a commercial airliner with russian weapons...now sanctions are unfair and they hurt us.

 

we can't have it both ways, and i was talking about the people and how they force the greek govt's. hand. the same with serbia. UN & EU sanctions and we ignored them. the same with the first gulf war, protesting in support of saddam...but, when saddam was gassing his own subjects, the same protesters were sipping coffee and twirling their kombologia in the kafeneio.

You're right about hypocrisy because no one demands sanctions against the US and UK for their disastrous intervention in Libya or for the Iraq invasion on the back of a lie or for providing saddam with the very gas we condemned him for using, or for trading with(supplying arms) Saudi Arabia who behead their own people and are bombing Yemen, or for supplying the Bahranian regime with equipment that they use on their own protestors. 

But Russia deserves sanctions because it took Crimea? without a shot in Crimea being fired, and you compare that with Turkey's actions in Cyprus? as though it was an identical scenario. 

You're like judge and jury regarding the commercial airliner that the Russians(or proxy Russian soldiers) allegedly shot down despite having absolutely no motive to do so. They may have, but until recorders/investigations are made public we don't know for sure. 

 

it still doesn't make sense not to be in the EU, when they yearly gift us Billions of euro in subsidies and force us to adhere to highest standards for institutions to protect human rights. this is what protects us from our own kosovo scenario in thraki, but it appears that some of our very own EU citizens don't understand the very organization they are members of.

 

whether we deserved to be in or not, pre-ez or post-ez, the greek govt. can not afford to take massive hits on tax revenues, pay early and generous pensions and use subsequent precious little state monies for crony public jobs. would we rather tackle this problem with the dpx. or with the euro? 

 

as far as the 50 billion privitization fund, it is collateral, isn't it?

Aek, at what point do you say enough, how bad does it have to become before you want out of this union, the only point i agree with is that with an exit you would probably have to kiss Thraki goodbye, however staying in and we've kissed goodbye to virtually all revenue generating assets, which makes it difficult for the state to make money, so when they demand the people make up the shortfall through higher tax inferior pensions VAT hikes you can see why its hard to swallow for the people effected. 

 

As for the 50 billion fund, collateral seems to suggest we'll get them back, I think Wolfgang Schaeuble will sell them off to his buddies as its his KfW bank that has control of them, but we'll see, i hope i'm wrong. 

[Bananas]

Hypocrisy.

 

I can guarantee you if and when the day comes that Germany's economy enters recession, they will not apply the same "methods" to their own economy as they did to Greece.

 

jvc, I get what you are saying about Greece paying its debt, but there are times when debts just aren't payed back in full.  And this is a text book case of that.  Just because an agreement has been made (think Versailles), doesn't make it just or sustainable.

 

I'm just waiting for the laughable hype that will come out in maybe 6 or 12 months from now when the media will report "Greek economy grows by 1.2%" or something like that.  It's not so hard to grow by 1.2% when you're GDP has fallen by 30%.

 

What people aren't getting is how bad the technocrats at the EU are at their job.  They have little understanding of macro-economics and don't really care when this is pointed out.

 

Just think ... how badly has Greece been run in the last 40 years or so ?  Really bad yeah!  Little understanding of how to create a modern economy.  Greatly reliant on tourism.  Little to no serious export industry.  Heavily reliant on imports.  Bureaucracy laughable.  Regulation laughable.  Taxation laughable.  And yet I tell you compared to the EU technocrats, the people that ran Greece were competent.  As bad as Greece has been, they never managed to destroy the economy to depression levels in such a short time.

 

There is a big misconception that this is all of Greece's fault.  Definitely up until 2008 it was.  But since then, the Troika's remedies have managed to put Greece into an economic spiral and it's still going.  I await to see where it will finish.

 

There seem to be a lot of posters on this forum that have faith in EU technocrats fixing Greece's economy.  I am not one of them.  I don't think they know how to fix it.

[RED SHERIFF]

I don't believe the greek media is the key instigator in the left leaning attitude...

 

the culture is entrenched in that way of thinking.....the whole anti west ideology is deeper than media influence...the media is merely a part of society and extension of that thinking....

 

when you have an education system teaching this dribble we are behind the 8 ball...

 

it's a symptom of why we read here some arguing we would be better off outside the EU....And then can only come up with the fact it would have allowed more Russian tourists and we could sell more dried prunes to Moscow??  If that's what it takes to trade off 'the west' then collectively we are in strife...

 

i heard earlier today in Greek media that opening up 'closed professions' would allow for cheaper priced products and far more competition in the economy...as would Sunday trading hours...the development of Elliniko and Port privatization were also mentioned as good starts...

I have been arguing these points for years....

Very simple start that sets the tone for the ball to roll....

[RED SHERIFF]

there is a push for status quo..... a real belief that we have got this crap right and they are all wrong..

hence why we focus so hard on what USA and the west do...and turn a blind eye to Libya, Russia, Saddam etc...

 

there is no will for change..

[Bananas]

I don't believe the greek media is the key instigator in the left leaning attitude...

 

the culture is entrenched in that way of thinking.....the whole anti west ideology is deeper than media influence...the media is merely a part of society and extension of that thinking....

 

when you have an education system teaching this dribble we are behind the 8 ball...

 

 

It's just a way of thinking that developed as a result of the civil war.  it's not ideal, but I don't find it surprising.  How else could it be ?  But, I think the left ideology ruining Greece is just a scape goat.  If that was the case, KKE would get a much larger share of the vote.  As it is, they never get more than 5% give or take.  To me, it's more a case of the Greek people became complacent and failed to keep up with the new way of doing things post 1990, give or take.  The world has changed a lot since then and we have had to adapt with jobs being off-shored, privatisations, domestic manufacturing become less and less relevant etc.  We don't like it, but we've managed for the most part to adapt, while whinging along the way.  The new normal is job insecurity unfortunately.

 

How does the education system in Greece perpetuate this way of thought ?

 

it's a symptom of why we read here some arguing we would be better off outside the EU....And then can only come up with the fact it would have allowed more Russian tourists and we could sell more dried prunes to Moscow??  If that's what it takes to trade off 'the west' then collectively we are in strife...

 

Wanting to exit the EZ doesn't mean become buddies with Russia.  I could not think of a worse ally.  Having said that, if we can export to them, or they want to invest in Greece, by all means do it.

 

 

i heard earlier today in Greek media that opening up 'closed professions' would allow for cheaper priced products and far more competition in the economy...as would Sunday trading hours...the development of Elliniko and Port privatization were also mentioned as good starts...

I have been arguing these points for years....

Very simple start that sets the tone for the ball to roll....

 

What is up with all the closed professions in Greece ?  I read somewhere there are 240 of them ?  Kind of ridiculous.  Certain professions (think medical) should be closed and have higher standards.  You don't want a cost-cutting race to the bottom when it comes to health-care.  But 240!  Nice one.

 

Sunday trading generally only benefits large malls.  Small suburban shops are for the most part closed on Sundays, as they don't get the foot traffic to justify opening on a Sunday.  Greece is for the most part the land of small suburban shops, so it'll be interesting to see how this one plays out.

 

What is up with Elliniko ?  You'd think it was a perfect site for development.  Is there something wrong with the site ?  Both PASOK and ND have had chances to develop it.  Why hasn't anything been done ?

 

And we're still waiting on a Land Register ...

[Giourkas]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&persist_app=1&v=WhGsh33d8bk

Through satire, Seth Myers paints a fair picture of the situation...