greece The Greek Economy Thread

[Irlandos]

In the Eurozone, Greece will continue to have problems unless Germany's monetary policy changes radically - very unlikely.

The only way OUT of the cycle of austerity and recession feeding into recession is the return to a national currency.

 

 

 A nuclear bomb on Greece would be less painful than the Drachma.

Really??? You'd be surprised how many Greeks survived - and thrived - when we had our own currency...

[gyros]

In the Eurozone, Greece will continue to have problems unless Germany's monetary policy changes radically - very unlikely.

The only way OUT of the cycle of austerity and recession feeding into recession is the return to a national currency.

 

Really??? You'd be surprised how many Greeks survived - and thrived - when we had our own currency...

 

 

They did thrive but that was the 90's.  The economy is totally different now.

[gyros]

Varoufakis gets a childhood friend to hack into the Greek tax system while others arrest the governor of the Greek central bank and raid the mint. Guess this plot to overthrow democracy in Greece will not result in any arrests because it was a left wing plot.

 

Scary stuff.  Arresting the governor and then appealing to Moscow for help.  Then we have Varoufakis who wants to do illegal stuff.  If this was in any western country, these people would be arrested.  In Greece, they are heroes.

Edited July 26, 2015 by gyros

[js1000]

Scary stuff.  Arresting the governor and then appealing to Moscow for help.  Then we have Varoufakis who wants to do illegal stuff.  If this was in any western country, these people would be arrested.  In Greece, they are heroes.

Arrested? you're joking not one banker got touched despite causing the crisis, how many UK MPs who got busted for fiddling their expenses and putting family members on the payroll and claimed money for mortgages that had already been paid off, how many of those in my wonderful civilised western country got arrested??? 

 

 

 

Varoufakis gets a childhood friend to hack into the Greek tax system while others arrest the governor of the Greek central bank and raid the mint. Guess this plot to overthrow democracy in Greece will not result in any arrests because it was a left wing plot.

SYRIZA have already overthrown democracy, the moment they ignored the referendum result. 

 

 

Greek banks have reopened after weeks of closure. The patient and orderly way customers queued outside to use ATMS during the big shut down was an impressive sight, especially for those people who are fond of considering Greek people as somehow incapable of doing things right.

But nothing is harmonious. The queues outside the job centres are as long as ever, while many of the shops that shut down at the same time as the banks, still haven?t reopened. Anti-austerity and anti-governmental protests have started to take place for the first time since Syriza came to power. Dozens were arrested as the Greek parliament voted to accept a new bailout deal from Europe, based on the very terms that were rejected just days earlier in a national referendum. Fresh riots took place as the parliament passed a law that allows the confiscation of people?s homes.

http://greece.greekreporter.com/2015/07/25/this-is-the-end-of-the-line-for-syriza/

 

 

 

Beppe: Nationalize Banks to Throw Off 'Anti-Democratic Straitjacket' of Eurozone

Populist comedian-turned-politician calls for Italy to exit the Euro

 

http://commondreams.org/news/2015/07/24/beppe-nationalize-banks-throw-anti-democratic-straitjacket-eurozone

Edited July 26, 2015 by js1000

[gyros]

Fiddling expenses is not the same as overthrowing a democratically governed country and dragging it into a Junta lead state. When someone plots to overthrow a democratically elected Government, the punishments are usually quite fierce.. unless you are leftists, than everyone just has a good laugh about it and moves on.

 

Its generally treason.  But in Greece nobody owns a mirror so its everybody else's fault.

[gyros]

It's not the end of the world if Greece returns to the drachma. What matters are the reforms: whether Greece can create an environment for free markets and capitalism to function at some kind of rationale.

 

How can Greece do any reforms when one portion of Syriza wants to arrest people and take over the mint and call Russia for help, the other clown wants to hack a computer system, and then when you listen to parliament, a lot of the people there are complete nimrods who talk about conspiracies involving the US, George Soros, etc..  The common theme is it is everyone else, not Greece.  We are being infiltrated.

[Irlandos]

First of all, I don't think they would be printing the old drachmas. It would be a parallel currency alongside the euro.

It would mean that public servants get paid and pensions get paid whether there is an agreement or not.

 

Already we are light years ahead of our present predicament.

[RED SHERIFF]

Athens abandoned children. Skynews.       

 

 

this is why i weep when people demand staying in the union and continuing with their austerity programs, and using a currency where they can simply switch the supply on and off via capital controls whenever they feel like it. 

 

At what point do you say enough? 

 

 

what percentage of these kids are children of illegal immigrants and refugees?

[RED SHERIFF]

I just want to point out to those talking about Russia...and the BRICS.....and other options etc...

 

Do we really want to associate ourselves economically, politically, socially with nations who have a lower GDP per capita than GREECE (Even after 6 years of crisis).....and systems of governance that are based on far more corrupt processes than we could even devise ourselves?

Edited July 27, 2015 by RED SHERIFF

[athinaios]

"the grecians are our friends" .W

Dubya said this?

:lol: :lol:

[Irlandos]

ok let's call it drachma 2.0

 

does not matter, it's the next step that does

 

what is it? what happens next?

 

we would be in default. nobody will trust us. how will we operate? who will buy any drachmas v2 ?? 

Wake up! We ARE in default and have been for years! And as far as "nobody trusting us", nobody does! Or are you one of these individuals that haven't kept up with the news of the past two months?

 

People don't buy "drachmas v2", they buy exports. Our exports are restricted (thank you very much EU!) and that area needs to be worked at. New markets have to be found (they were there in pre-EU times). Our industry has to be developed - and protected - a buy-Greek campaign needs to start (even in primary schools), our services sector needs to shrink in favour of the other two.

Germany and other more developed countries need us just as much as we need them. Don't forget which way the trade surplus stands!

 

You are spewing out doomsday generalities, spoon-fed by the EU and the Greek elite. Please do yourself a favour and think for yourself.

[gyros]

Varoufakis needs to just shut up and move on.  He is only making the situation worse but he is an attention whore.  The guy knows nothing about running an economy or how real life works but he thinks he's god's greatest gift because he is a teacher.  Typical college professor.  They know the theory but they have zero experience in practice.  Life isn't run through a text book unfortunately.

[Bananas]

Varoufakis needs to just shut up and move on.  He is only making the situation worse but he is an attention whore.  The guy knows nothing about running an economy or how real life works but he thinks he's god's greatest gift because he is a teacher.  Typical college professor.  They know the theory but they have zero experience in practice.  Life isn't run through a text book unfortunately.

 

Well, there's a stack, and I mean lots of economists around the world who agree with what he is saying.

 

Essentially, his message is "stop the extend and pretend game", but Schauble doesn't want that, so that game continues.

 

In trying to decide who is more knowledgeable, you or Varoufakis, I'm leaning slightly towards him.  The fact that the ECB strangled Greece (which maybe gave you joy), while he was Fin-Min doesn't nullify his views.  It only shows what lengths the EU project is willing to go to.

 

Do you get your views purely from reading ekathimerini.com ?

 

I await your retort which usually involves something about reforms, greeks being lazy, untrustworthy, thieves etc.

[Doxa]

ekathimerini.com are very anti-syriza en pro-

[js1000]

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/08/03/greece-succombs-to-imperialist-banksterism/

 

the above is the best article i've read on Greece's financial state. 

 

 

 

At the time of writing, the national debt of Greece stood at more than ?357 billion, and government debt was more than 175 per cent of GDP and growing. The cause, according to Greece?s major creditors in Berlin, London and New York, was profligate social spending. The Greek government, they argue, took out unsustainable loans to pay for health coverage, minimum wage, decent pensions, libraries, schools and parks. Therefore, Greeks are responsible for their own predicament: The people have to tighten their belts, even if that means adding a few notches, and the government must succumb to deregulation and increased privatization; in other words, Greece must surrender political control over its economy to foreign corporations. This is the standard, bourgeois explanation. It is dead wrong.

[js1000]

He does talk some sense, but i certainly don't trust varoufakis, particularly as he was standing up for Mario Draghi, former goldman banker, governor of the bank of Italy and president of the European Central bank. Anything Draghi does would be for the benefit of the banks.

 

Varoufakis seems to have friends in high places.

[Bananas]

I think Varoufakis "problem" is that he genuinely believes in the idea of the EU.  Run properly and fairly, the whole would be greater than the sum of the parts.  And I think what he's trying to push for is for the powers that be that have influence in the EU, to see this.  Unfortunately, they didn't like what he had to say and prefer to bury their heads in the sand.

 

The idea of having a common currency in it's current form is almost farcical.  The EU has been warned since the Euro came into existence that it can't work without fiscal transfers.  That's how a currency works.  The "government" collects the money via taxes and distribute with the idea of keeping things as balanced as possible.  You never get perfect equilibrium, but the idea is to keep things as balanced as possible.  If you didn't have fiscal transfers for example in the US, UK or Australia, certain states would see their standard of living drop quickly.

 

In the EU, the concept of fiscal transfers is anathema.  Instead, they want loans.  Try doing that in the US, UK or Australia on a per state level and watch the mayhem that occurs.  And it can't be a one shot fiscal transfer either.  Some posters will be thinking to themselves, "but the EU has given money to Greece".  Yes they did, but this is an on-going process.  It doesn't stop.

 

If you don't have fiscal transfers, you get ... what we see today.  Countries on their knees with 25% unemployment, 50% youth unemployment.

 

If the citizens and countries that make up the EU don't want to do this, if they find the idea ridiculous, then don't have a common currency.

 

I'm actually pro common currency in theory, assuming it was run properly.  But I don't believe it ever will be.  So my preferred option is that somehow, in the least painful way possible, however that is, the whole thing gets dismantled.  Or at the very least, Greece reverts to its own currency.

 

The EU still have the stomach for the moment to support Greece for this 3rd bail out but will they have the stomach for a 4th ?

Edited August 4, 2015 by Bananas

[Bananas]

The problem with Drachma 2.0 as Tantra has pointed out, is what you do on day zero.  Because I can tell you, no one will want to trade in it initially.  Any suppliers overseas will insist on Euros or US dollars.  You can try and tell them "but this paper is good", and they will promptly tell you where you can put those new Drachmas.

 

In time, probably 12 months or so, overseas suppliers would get used to it, but initially, it would be as useful for trade as a bunch of rocks.

 

So how to overcome this ??  The only way is to have a "buffer" of Euros and US dollars already in reserve.  The problem is how to build it up.  We can't.  We would need the buffer given to Greece to help it get through the first 12 months or so.  You would also need controls on all currency coming into the country, until the rest of the world begins to get used to Drachma 2.0 and realise it's not the end of the world.

 

The only practical control I can think of is tapping the tourist market for their currency.  So, a tourist comes into Greece and they have say $2,500 US dollars, or British Pounds or Euros or whatever.  You'd need to make it illegal for them to use that as currency in Greece, and they would have to exchange it at that point for the equivalent in drachmas.  15 million tourists in the country should get you a few tens of billions in hard currency.

 

But again, coordinating something like this, is not easy.  And if it's not done right, and zero day would become dooms-day.

[Irlandos]

Why is it not easy???

Trading in your dollars, sterling, etc. for drachmas only at the banks was the rule (with some pretty harsh penalties) in 1968 when I left Greece.

[js1000]

 

 

The Greek bailout talks are set to hit troubled waters yet again, as it emerged that its creditors - the International Monetary Fund (IMF), the European Central Bank (ECB) and the Eurozone members - are set to demand Athens passes even more austerity measures.

 

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20150803/1025343390.html

 

Seems they want their pound of flesh, more privatisation more of Greece to be owned by creditors. These guys are insatiable they won't stop till they own it all, and in return we get a 'bailout' that will last for 3 years and the Greek people will have higher taxes, worse pensions and VAT hikes in return.

What a great deal, we're on the road to recovery.

[RED SHERIFF]

Portugal and the others will be ok..

 

so we leave or get kicked out...then what?

 

stop taking in all the Russian propaganda....+

[gyros]

Either way Varoufakis is running from camera to camera to newspaper to do interviews left and right.  This guy knows how to market himself.  People are still blinded by him but a lot of people are coming around to realize how destructive this guy was to Greece this year and his only goal is to sell books and go on the lecture circuit.  He's a poverty pimp.

[Bananas]

Either way Varoufakis is running from camera to camera to newspaper to do interviews left and right.  This guy knows how to market himself.  People are still blinded by him but a lot of people are coming around to realize how destructive this guy was to Greece this year and his only goal is to sell books and go on the lecture circuit.  He's a poverty pimp.

 

You actually made me lol. :)

[Doxa]

its true, 60 per day.

the companies have big problems, cant send money outside of greece so they cant import s%$#!. in the middle of the summer with all the tourists.

germany wants this, they ordered the capital control to destroy is. i think thats quite obvious.

[Doxa]

No matter what party was in charge we would have had the same outcome. Atleast Tsipras went down with a fight and got a lot more out of it then Samaras who also went down, but to get F***ed immediately. But I am confident we will get our revenge. We are not strong enough yet we have no move. Thank god Tsipras proved he doesnt care about left or right only about his people. Thats why he is so populair.

 

Kos tourism is dead from what i've heard. The propaganda pics of these muslims are hurting our islands. Turkey is to blame but more to blame is Greece cause we should have taken measures before they came. I expect a hardliner like Kammenos to give them all the papers they need to get the F*** out of Greece. Don't worry they are not staying. The immigrants who come to Italy and Greece will 98 % leave as soon as they can. The other 2% will leave after a while. The only thing is the bad publicity and Northern European countries not helping like always.