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  • 4 weeks later...

Actually the son in law lost a lot of money from what I heard.  Either way, who cares.  Its not like Hillary took Greece's economy down the tubes.  Greece has another fall guy to blame now for its ineptness.

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Calling out Red Sheriff and other "Greeks should pay", "it's all Greece's fault" supporters. 

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted in here yet... 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/07/28/imf-admits-disastrous-love-affair-with-euro-apologises-for-the-i/
 

The International Monetary Fund?s top staff misled their own board, made a series of calamitous misjudgments in Greece, became euphoric cheerleaders for the euro project, ignored warning signs of impending crisis, and collectively failed to grasp an elemental concept of currency theory. 

This is the lacerating verdict of the IMF?s top watchdog on the fund?s tangled political role in the eurozone debt crisis, the most damaging episode in the history of the Bretton Woods institutions. 

...

The three main bailouts for Greece, Portugal and Ireland were unprecedented in scale and character. The trio were each allowed to borrow over 2,000pc of their allocated quota ? more than three times the normal limit ? and accounted for 80pc of all lending by the fund between 2011 and 2014.
...

 

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and none of that explains how we got in the s%$#! in the first place?

 

Our own structure and sociopolitical landscape is to blame for our mess...

 

We can choose to pick bits of articles here and there to prove a pointless point...

 

However until we realise we are set up to be no more efficient or economically sufficient  than Albania or fyrom the rest is mere details..

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The entire policy of negative interest rates has devastated savings and ruined the banking system. Month after month has gone by without any recovery, yet the policies are never reviewed ? they are always assumed to be correct. The IEO report has blasted its own process. It reported that many documents were prepared outside the regular established channels; written documentation on some sensitive matters could not be located.
 In a truly astonishing admission, the IEO report stated plainly that its own investigators were unable to obtain key records or penetrate the activities of secretive ?ad-hoc task forces,? but would not name who was behind the obstruction to hide the truth. We are witnessing a degree of corruption within government that is worldwide.

'The IEO report blasted its own process' brilliant, you couldn't make it up, 'written documentation couldn't be located' jeez it just disappeared like a 10 year olds homework, and we also got the wonderful MS Lagarde under investigation for money laundering.

No wonder the entire Eurozone is f ucked.

Now, if we could only squeeze a little more tax off those lazy Greeks.

 

https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/world-news/imf-deliberately-lied-obstructed-an-investigation-into-their-eu-policies/

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There are several things here, so let's separate them.

  1. Greece has not been able to successfully and efficiently run their own affairs, including the economy since 1821. Entry into the EU was rushed, partly on fake numbers Greece gave the EU, partly to forge a union with a common currency (monetary policy)  but with dozens of different national economic policies. The drachma was exchanged at much higher value than warranted too. Many Greeks felt rich almost overnight.
  2. Many Euros got tired of Greece's behavior, especially the newly elected Syriza's rhetoric and amateurish stance. It was punishment time. Since the 1980s, Greece thought it was smarter and could fool the EU. Payback was almost natural when the Greek state went bankrupt.
  3. The austerity package was badly planned and implemented. It has turned many Euros (for different reasons) against the EU. Extreme parties became stronger (not a good thing either). Greece became a lab animal on life support and with no recovery in sight
  4. Greece remains badly managed by her own leaders! Let's say I was rich enough to pay off all of Greece's debt. So no more crazy austerity or capital controls.  Is anyone confident here or anywhere to assure me that this mess would not happen again?...
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There are several things here, so let's separate them.

  1. Greece has not been able to successfully and efficiently run their own affairs, including the economy since 1821. Entry into the EU was rushed, partly on fake numbers Greece gave the EU, partly to forge a union with a common currency (monetary policy)  but with dozens of different national economic policies. The drachma was exchanged at much higher value than warranted too. Many Greeks felt rich almost overnight.
  2. Many Euros got tired of Greece's behavior, especially the newly elected Syriza's rhetoric and amateurish stance. It was punishment time. Since the 1980s, Greece thought it was smarter and could fool the EU. Payback was almost natural when the Greek state went bankrupt.
  3. The austerity package was badly planned and implemented. It has turned many Euros (for different reasons) against the EU. Extreme parties became stronger (not a good thing either). Greece became a lab animal on life support and with no recovery in sight
  4. Greece remains badly managed by her own leaders! Let's say I was rich enough to pay off all of Greece's debt. So no more crazy austerity or capital controls.  Is anyone confident here or anywhere to assure me that this mess would not happen again?...

 

 

Great summary.

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entrance into the ez allowed for greece to sell debt at substantially better rates than selling greek debt in dpx. 

 

Fully agree, in theory.  In practice it was like giving a 100K credit card to rednecks living in trailers and then expecting them to be responsible.

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ok...well, i guess that's the greek way. now the other end, time to pay back the debt. was the government collecting any semblance of revenues through taxes from theorized increased commerce? hmm, what is a receipt? what is a tax form?

 

When I put "tax form" into google translate I got this, 

Edited by Bananas
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i see the analogy, but greek leaders were educated in the best universities in the usa..the uk...germany. they are not rednecks.

 

unfortunately, these well-educated politicians wanted to remain in power and went overboard in ingratiating themselves and their political party to the actual rednecks, the greek lao. (laos, to make iltibas happy).

 

To be fair, it's not as if politicians from other countries put their national interest above getting elected.  The short term goal of getting elected is always the priority.  At least that's the way I see it.

 

I personally think where Greece fails is in its institutions outside of the government.  Things like the Reserve Bank (or whatever their equivalent was), business councils, judiciary etc.  If these institutions are strong, then can help to keep the country sort of on the straight and narrow, as well as keep the politician(s) in check.  In Greece though, these institutions appear very weak, which further increases the power (and damage) these politicians can/did do while in power.

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Greece is in a terrible predicament and it does not seem there is any way out.

People are living off the pensions and inheritances of the older generation. Once those are gone, what will there be? If they have not contributed into funds how will they retire?

I hear the souvlaki joint owner calling:" Hussein, Tria souvlakia."

At the super market I hear the owner ask Ahmed to bring a case of water from the back.

Cafeterias are full. Tavernas full. Hotels full.

Only Albanians do construction.

Everyone is looking for a way to make a quick buck. Nobody willing to do what Hussein and Ahmed are willing to do.

I saw it when I was there last month.  For a country with a so called 25% unemployment rate, I didn't see it.  Everyone was spending the day drinking coffee or walking around with no purpose.  The one thing about Greece is that all the semi trucks seemed to be filled with farm crops and the lack of trains to move products.  But when you produce nothing, you really don't need trains.  The Greek mentality is to blame the politicians for everything there but these same people never paid any taxes all these years but its someone else's fault.  Nothing will change the Greek way of thinking.  Its all about conning the system.

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The Greek soccer mafia should do their patriotic duty and help us out during this financial crisis and send some info about fixed matches to our politicians so we can get the country rolling again, enough is enough now.

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In order for Greece to get their periodic payments from the EU, they are meant to implement reforms.  I haven't heard much about actual reform and if it's beginning to benefit the people.  Even if the debt can't be realistically repaid by Greece, implementing reforms should in theory at least help increase employment.

 

Does anyone know of any reforms that have actually been implemented ?

 

- Have any of the closed professions been made more open ?

 

- Has red tape for business been decreased ?

 

- Is there any movement on the land register, that was meant to be finished years ago ?

 

- You could say that the public service has been "reformed", in the sense that it's cheaper to run today than it was 6 years ago.  This is due to forced pay reductions, which I suppose is better than laying off thousands of people in one hit.

 

- Is Greece a better place to do business in today than 6 years ago ?

 

- Has foreign investment increased ?  In theory it should have as their is massive amount of excess labour, reasonably educated and the wages are low by EU standards.

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Not sure why everyone is wasting their breath with "solutions".  You can't provide solutions to a nation that is corrupt to the bone.  This is what they want.  Just give them a coffee and a tyropita and to sit and complain for 6 hours about how everyone is screwing them.  Really sick of all the people bitching in Greece about how its the politicians fault but they were stealing money all these years and not paying taxes.  Greece is a useless country.  Summer vacation and thats about it.  If you do business in Greece, then you're an idiot.

Edited by gyros
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  • 2 months later...

This drain of intellectual and technical talent is very damaging to Greece. It's this talent that can be drawn to other countries but it makes Greece poorer.

As for the video @tantra129I found Tsipras a babbling bore; Clinton gave him many openings to state his case, but he spoke like he was addressing a crowd at a plateia....

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  • 4 weeks later...

No economy can be efficient if the level of corruption is high. Add a very inefficient bureaucracy and it's a recipe for disaster. If Greeks can't clean up house and become modern Europeans, there's no hope.

I'm rich, I'm very rich. No one here is richer than me. I alone can fix it.... (sorry, I was carried away)... But, let's say I pay off all Greece's debts, because I'm a nice guy... nobody is nicer than me; nobody loves and  respects Greeks more than me. So, let's make a deal....

Now, how many of you think that if Greece's debts magically disappeared, then all things would be beautiful and the country will be prosperous from now on?....

 

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that's the point I HAVE BEEN MAKING FOR YEARS...

Greece's issues are deeper than 'european debt'..

And corruption is not just a fat politician pocketing 50 million..

it's a systemic culture of 'me' and 'entitlement' ..starts from the education system through to heavily politically charged social landscape...to lack of respect for law and order.

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Well, it is a problem when those in charge are corrupt (unless it's "our" people)...

but you're right, it goes much deeper than that.

Even at a basic level, how people treat each other everyday in different circumstances reveals something rotten. No outside conspirators needed when Greeks don't respect each other.  From the public workers to the private businesses, to reckless driving, to polluting of the environment, to noise, to whatever......

Oh, let me not forget the "super league" run entirely by Greeks and attended by the same.....  "Super" ain't it?

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  • 1 month later...

@tantra129 As much as many of us have been critical of how Greece has been irresponsible with its finances for a century, the IMF and Europe have not been good handlers of the situation either. Very harsh and unrealistic terms.  And the method by which they applied the measures was faulty.

They could start with harshness, but then give lots of incentives instead of only pain and a very long, if ever, recovery. If you want me to bail you out, and you've been irresponsible all along and you've lied to me, I'd ask myself if I need to associate with you any longer. If I decided you're worth my help, I'd offer harsh terms but also incentives. Show me that you seriously changed your ways and I'll improve the terms. I could even give you a bonus, etc.

Anyway, interesting article but it makes a bad analogy between US-California and EU-Greece. Not similar. One one hand you have a country and on the other you have a "union" with sovereign countries.

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