greece The Greek Economy Thread

[js1000]

There's a reason why I try to avoid mainstream news outlets and it's because they spew garbage like that. Had they ventured outside of their narrow minded beliefs they would know that on average, a Greek works more hours than the brits and Germans but at the end of the day they will believe whatever they want to believe. Have to say, yesterday I was skeptical but as more info comes out I become increasingly disappointed in the deal. I have to fault Tsipras for not supporting Varoufakis' plan to secretly adopt the drachma in the background. Syriza won't last much longer but I hope the next government takes the initiative that Syriza brought to the table and actually utilize it and have more balls to stand up to the troika. What they're doing to Greece is as inhumane as you can do to people. They're making us their personal debt colony and I really hope that this forces the Greek people over the edge so they can realize that this is the end road for the euro. 

They cannot stand up to the troika and remain in the Euro at the same time, if you want to remain in the Euro you have to play by their rules, more theft of revenue generating Greek assets more austerity higher taxes, basically you do as they say. 

They destroyed Tsiparas because they sensed he didn't have the desire to leave the EU/EZ they had him by the balls, you want to use our currency you do as you're told. 

If the majority of Greeks want to remain in the Euro then this is the price they gotta pay. The IMF know Greece can't pay back, they've said austerity is not working yet we get more austerity and loss of assets in return for further funds(debt). Like a beggar with no dignity. 

 

The British parliament wants to block the deal....The MPs are not keen on using England's tax payers money, to bail out Greece....Where's all the labor union leaders is Greece right now....Standing on the street corners protesting isn't going to bring Greece money.

Hay communist and the far leftist that have destroyed our once proud nation....Why don't you guys go out and find banks that will back up Greece....After all you bankrupted the country....Try Cuba Nicaragua the Russian low life scum bags....OOOOHHHH you guys have no cash!!!! You expect companies with hard investment to play by your rules....Put this through your heads nobody is investing with you guys in power, you're turning Greece into a Eastern block country!!!

What we need my fellow Greek brothers is round up all the communist in Greece and put them in jail....Even send them to Russia, where they can live with the other low life mob race!!!

Im dreaming of a westernized society, a competitive Greece with all the unions and communist eliminated!!!

you sound like a trigger happy American soldier, communism/capitalism its all rubbish it doesn't matter what system you have, if you're using the Euro you do as the Eurocrats say. If you go it alone then you can discuss what 'system' works best and how to implement it. 

Besides SYRIZA aren't really in power, they get their orders from the Eurocrats and implement them for the benefit of the Eurocrats and to the detriment of the Greek people. 

You can dream of a westernised Greek society, one that locks/deports those that disagree, and banishes unions. Sounds like China to me. 

[Bananas]

^@JS100 You're 100% correct. Tsipras failed to realize that although the majority of the Greek people voted to stay in the EU, he should have never seen that as a reason not to put major time and effort into having the fall back plan of re-developing the drachma. Had Greece walked into the negotiations with the referendum and that fall back plan I think Greece would have faired much better in the negotiations. Either ways, this deal is degrading and the Greek people will be kicking themselves for wanting to remain in the euro so badly. Maybe they'll realize that the euro will go down as one of the worst economic unions of all time.

I am amazed this wasn't the first thing discussed the minute Syriza (or whoever won the election) got into government. The best thing Greece could have done is have a fall back plan. The only possible problem to this could be the narrow time frame of 6 months or so from getting into government until the bailout ran out.

Either way, the day I realised how terrible the EU is, was the day they replaced Papandreou for "daring" to even mention a referendum. The way that episode played out, was an eye opener. The world is realising now, but the EU showed its colors then. That was when all the major parties in Greece should have got together and started planning for a Grexit. Not to necessarily do it, but to be prepared as possible if need be.

[gyros]

We still need to crack down hard on tax revenue. No reason why hotel owners on Mykonos and the rest of the business aren't paying taxes. No reason how someone has 2 mil euros can claim 10k wages. Greek people need to pay taxes and the Greek tax officials getting attacked and chased away on islands is beyond bad. No matter what currency we use, we need to establish a legit tax collection agency that has powers to arrest and confiscate. Powers to go to an island and not be afraid of the locals.

[js1000]

We still need to crack down hard on tax revenue. No reason why hotel owners on Mykonos and the rest of the business aren't paying taxes. No reason how someone has 2 mil euros can claim 10k wages. Greek people need to pay taxes and the Greek tax officials getting attacked and chased away on islands is beyond bad. No matter what currency we use, we need to establish a legit tax collection agency that has powers to arrest and confiscate. Powers to go to an island and not be afraid of the locals.

I would agree with you if Greece ran its own affairs and had its own currency, but any tax collected now will disappear down the black hole that is the EU and back into the hands of creditors to repay a debt that is designed to be impossible to pay.

When i go there this summer i'll be paying in cash and will not be asking for receipts for anything, the less tax they pay the more money stays in their economy and the less gets swallowed up by the monstrous EU.

You can collect all the tax possible and still Greece will need another bailout in the near future, heck even if there was 100% employment there a bailout will still be needed in the near future, any reforms are futile while we remain in the EU/EZ. 

I'm not saying after an exit Greece will become the land of milk and honey, there will be hardship but I don't see any other option.

[gyros]

Greece can't run its own affairs. When will you realize that? Your post is the epitome of the Greek cherokefalos. Excuse after excuse. Goldman Sachs, Starbucks didn't pay taxes in London, Blair has private security etc.., not one time have you commented on this Greek lawyer who had 16 mil euros not reported. You never look at the mirror. Now you're proud to be a tax evader in Greece. Bravo! Typical Greek excuse garbage. We are uncivilized and you're the prime example.

[js1000]

If not wanting to give taxes to some unelected Eurocrat to enrich themselves is 'uncivilised' then so be it. It's immoral to pay tax to a corrupt regime. If you choose to blame normal people and apologise for the real culprits thats entirely up to you. 

Forgive me for not commenting on one bent lawyer that's swinging the lead, but it pails into insignificance when you see how much the troika have swallowed up, sums so vast they don't even mean anything anymore. 

We can come after the bent lawyer when Greek taxes actually stay in Greece. 

[gyros]

If not wanting to give taxes to some unelected Eurocrat to enrich themselves is 'uncivilised' then so be it. It's immoral to pay tax to a corrupt regime. If you choose to blame normal people and apologise for the real culprits thats entirely up to you. 

Forgive me for not commenting on one bent lawyer that's swinging the lead, but it pails into insignificance when you see how much the troika have swallowed up, sums so vast they don't even mean anything anymore. 

We can come after the bent lawyer when Greek taxes actually stay in Greece. 

Immoral, Corrupt, Troika, Swallowed, Greece, Culprits

 

You must have a list of keywords to throw in every sentence.  Never ever have you made a comment on how we spend more than we take in.  Never do you talk about how its been a national pastime in Greece to not pay taxes.  When you go to Greece and tell them you pay taxes, they mock and laugh at you.  All of a sudden its Germany's fault we are complete screw ups and created this mess. Thousands of people in Greece have $$$ homes, $ millions in the bank and they claim poor.  But thats ok.  Greece is going down the sewer fast and if we don't "reform" now, we are going to be a wasteland which will make the current Albania look like an empire.

[Bananas]

Relax guys Greece did what they had to do, by proving that they're willing to go the 9 yards to stay in Europe.

The opposition in Germany, and the people are criticizing the way they handled and blackmailed Greece....The environment is changing every second,..Greece will get out of this....With debt relief and a easing on the collateral....England is also favoring Greece...Relax!!!

 

Very true.  A lot of bewilderment around the world at what has happened in the last few weeks.  Yeah there is lots of the usual "why can't they just pay back the debt" coming even from Greeks themselves, but a lot of economists, politicians etc, people with "clout" are amazed and not impressed at what is happening.

[Bananas]

Lots of talk within this thread as well as in the world press about "reforms, reforms".  But this takes time.  This doesn't excuse the pathetic state of affairs in Greece, but to get Greece to Germany's level in terms of taxation collection, regulation etc, you realistically need probably 10 years.  This will take a long time ...

[Torontoblue]

I would agree with you if Greece ran its own affairs and had its own currency, but any tax collected now will disappear down the black hole that is the EU and back into the hands of creditors to repay a debt that is designed to be impossible to pay.

When i go there this summer i'll be paying in cash and will not be asking for receipts for anything, the less tax they pay the more money stays in their economy and the less gets swallowed up by the monstrous EU.

You can collect all the tax possible and still Greece will need another bailout in the near future, heck even if there was 100% employment there a bailout will still be needed in the near future, any reforms are futile while we remain in the EU/EZ. 

I'm not saying after an exit Greece will become the land of milk and honey, there will be hardship but I don't see any other option.

 

 

This the problem with Greece, and most Greeks think the same way. This is why the country is F***ed up the way it is. 

Edited July 15, 2015 by Torontoblue

[gyros]

The United States flexing its muscles via the IMF which is good to see. This is an important geopolitical matter as well as an economic matter and keeping Greece in the EU can only be accomplished with a fair agreement. Without it, Greece will continue to struggle and find itself in the same position in a few months time. Also, if Greece were to leave the EU, I would bet that Russia would help Greece out as a report came out at a left wing party in Russia has urged Putin to raise the food embargo placed on the west and make the exception for Greece.

Why do we keep assuming Russia will help when they are struggling to keep afloat themselves.

[js1000]

Immoral, Corrupt, Troika, Swallowed, Greece, Culprits

 

You must have a list of keywords to throw in every sentence.  Never ever have you made a comment on how we spend more than we take in.  Never do you talk about how its been a national pastime in Greece to not pay taxes.  When you go to Greece and tell them you pay taxes, they mock and laugh at you.  All of a sudden its Germany's fault we are complete screw ups and created this mess. Thousands of people in Greece have $$$ homes, $ millions in the bank and they claim poor.  But thats ok.  Greece is going down the sewer fast and if we don't "reform" now, we are going to be a wasteland which will make the current Albania look like an empire.

The more you privatise the less you take in, is it that difficult to understand? why are the Eurocrats so keen on the fire sale of assets and Greek reform, is it for their benefit or ours? you seem to be furious with people with money pleading poverty but not too bothered about money/assets being swallowed up by the troika. the fact the majority of people turn on each other and point fingers at who's not paying enough tax or who's got the best pension or who's got the biggest house and what car they have is the reason the spotlight is not on the real culprits.

Greece is going down the sewer, and these 'reforms' will do nothing to prevent it, same discussion a few months down the line when another bailout is needed because low and behold these reforms haven't worked, how can they, they're not designed to work.

 

Everything in Greece is owned by foreign speculators but that's OK that's fine so long as we collect more taxes off the Greeks. What a rip off.  

[Bananas]

It would be nice if Greece could shake off its inferiority complex and stop relying on the US, UK, Germany, France, Russia etc. Why would they want to help Greece ?

Each country looks out for themselves and Greece should do the same. It's not about being nasty or unsympathetic. It's just about being realistic.

Where has this attitude of needing a big brother gotten us ? It hasn't benefited us at all. In fact, it's made Greece mentally weaker.

[Brklyngrk]

If you do not vote for the deal, than what do you do? They will be even greater unemployment, pensions will be reduced further all the while prices will go up (remember we are an import the majority of our goods).  Also remember that Greece needs to print new currency which would take quite a while.  There is no good answer. 

 

Regarding privatization, if done correctly, it does benefit a society.  Private companies are more likely to run projects more efficiently, create jobs and add to the overall GDP of a country. Greece benefits from the increase of tax revenue on both the development of the project and the people employed. If the Elleniko airport ever gets developed, it is projected that the project alone will add millions annually in tax revenue.  There will be jobs in construction, restaurants, hotels, etc...Some of these jobs will be permanent which only helps the economy.  The value of the entire land goes up including its surroundings.The other side to that, the airport sits idle, no jobs, no tax revenue.....

[gyros]

The more you privatise the less you take in, is it that difficult to understand? why are the Eurocrats so keen on the fire sale of assets and Greek reform, is it for their benefit or ours? you seem to be furious with people with money pleading poverty but not too bothered about money/assets being swallowed up by the troika. the fact the majority of people turn on each other and point fingers at who's not paying enough tax or who's got the best pension or who's got the biggest house and what car they have is the reason the spotlight is not on the real culprits.

Greece is going down the sewer, and these 'reforms' will do nothing to prevent it, same discussion a few months down the line when another bailout is needed because low and behold these reforms haven't worked, how can they, they're not designed to work.

 

Everything in Greece is owned by foreign speculators but that's OK that's fine so long as we collect more taxes off the Greeks. What a rip off.  

 

I really can't say anything to this.  You want Greece to continue the way it is and its a European conspiracy.  You think that billions of dollars a year in unpaid taxes is not a problem and the real culprits are in some youtube video your going to post tonight.  I just can't believe the Greek logic which unfortunately is carried by a percentage of the country.  No point in debating anything anymore with you.  Its the same conspiracy nonsense talk.

[Bananas]

If you think :-

 

- carving up what is left of Greece and handing it over to foreigners.

- guaranteeing a 4th bailout if the IMF don't step in (by which time Greece's "unpayable" debt will be 500 million)

- guaranteeing more cuts in GDP.

- guaranteeing 25% unemployment for the country.

- guaranteeing 50% unemployment for youth and zero future.

 

is the sensible, logical, rational, most responsible thing to do, then well, what I can say.  You should all be happy that the parliamentarians (thanks for the oxi but let the grown ups handle it now), voted yes today.

 

I can honestly say, this is a terrible day.  The only good news is for all those posters that would rather see Greece get mauled than see Syriza in power, your wish has been granted.

Edited July 15, 2015 by Bananas

[Leros5]

Sorry I'm also of the belief that the drachma would of been better. I know the value is crap but let's be real guys both you and I don't want to hand over any of our assets to the bastardi Germani. We all know Greece won't pay back. All I hear from people in greece is that pinaei o kosmos yet my friend is down there now and can't find a seat at a kafenio and the clubs are packed!!! I'm going down in a few days and will confirm.

Now on a side note... Something that always pissed me off. Greece has no ability to market or produce anything to help herself. For example Italians produce cars and virtually every cooking product in the U.S. The French are known for their fashion industry. The stupid Germans with their vast automobile empire... Etc. How come greece can't create booming industries! For god sakes that Greek yogurt that is so in demand now on the streets is because the health benefits started appearing on the news and very American company bought in and started producing Greek yogurt.

To put it together all I'm saying is if anyone there had half a mialo they would market and expand on these great products such as olives, oil, feta, mastic products

Edited July 16, 2015 by Leros5

[RED SHERIFF]

^^It's the communist cancer cells in the BALKANS, that are holding the region behind....We didn't do enough 60 years ago to neutralize the spread....It keeps coming back.

This time hopefully we are able to destroy the cancer for good!!!

 

 

Syriza is running the country..So the communists are running the country....

 

Communism in the Balkans?   Our Che Guevara  Hellenic 21st century communism is very different to the Communism preached by Tito and learnt so well by Gruios grandson...

[Akritis_1944]

I've already started boycotting German and his puppet states products.

If I'm in the market to buy a specific product. I'm doing my research if there is an equivalent product that's not German for example I'm going with that.

Come on comrads, join me in the Germany boycott.

BTW, I'm serious.

[Akritis_1944]

^ Plenty of people on twitter have been tweeting #ThIscCoup and boycotting German products. Great movement! I'm all for it.

It's a token gesture I know, but I'm not buying anything that's German owned or German made.

I'm not shopping at an Aldi etc. Anything that I currently have I will continue to use but I'm not making any new purchases. I was planning on a trip to Europe next year which was to include a Berlin leg. This isn't going to happen now. 8t will be mainly Greece and possibly Paris, France and Madrid.

[Chris Tsamados]

Do people on here think the slump in form of the national team is intrinsically linked with the decline of the Greek economy. I myself do but many on the football part of the forum do not agree.

Incidentally I read a BBC report today that said that the situation in Greece is now on a scale with the American Great Depression.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33507802

Btw this is the best article I've read on the BBC's website where they try and relate what is going on to others. A few weeks previous I emailed there editorial team to complain about the racial sterotyping they were doing with alot of there articles. And also how I felt they need to show a more human angle to what is happening. I still don't feel they have done that, as I'd like to see a documentary showing how hardships are effecting people, especially the young where mass unemployment is rife.

[gyros]

It's a token gesture I know, but I'm not buying anything that's German owned or German made.

I'm not shopping at an Aldi etc. Anything that I currently have I will continue to use but I'm not making any new purchases. I was planning on a trip to Europe next year which was to include a Berlin leg. This isn't going to happen now. 8t will be mainly Greece and possibly Paris, France and Madrid.

 

Seriously who shops at Aldi besides people who are broke.  Thats like a last resort store if you're on food stamps.

[Bananas]

Incidentally I read a BBC report today that said that the situation in Greece is now on a scale with the American Great Depression.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33507802

 

 

And all orchestrated by the "responsible" and "serious" Troika.  Greece wasn't exactly a model of economic prosperity before hand, but the actions of the Troika have been naive, irresponsible, amateurish and obstinate.

 

But it's all Greece's fault!  Maybe pre-2008, but since then, much blame goes on the serious people who have no idea about economics.  They still think running a country is like balancing the books in a business.

 

And the end result ?  Well, it's there for all to see.

[Bananas]

Yeah, I don't know where people come up with this sort of reasoning.  Once again, it's an inferiority complex and the belief you can't stand on your own two feet.

 

I reiterate, when has one country ever helped another ... just because.  It just doesn't happen.

 

Even when Greece was assisted in the past, it was because they were a block against the Ottoman Empire, or the Nazis, or because the US didn't want Greece falling under Russian influence just after WW2.  It is always strategic.  Always.

[RED SHERIFF]

 

"hey british, God bless Russia"

 

this after the russians F***ed your wife and ate your dinner she cooked for you. mia zwh kepatades.

 

 

I was talking endlessly about this on the old site for years....  

 

and I got into massive battles when I came up with the phrase 'kefeneio greeks' and 'kafeneio talk'....countless of 'worshipers' were quoting their grandfathers...Sure who was I to be pitted against pappou Mitso from Kastoria who was born in 1917?

i was just an upstart from Melbourne with an Anglo tertiary qualification?  who was I to question the prophet monk?

they know best...Mother Russia and the Brotherhood was all that mattered?

 

the world is jealous of us?  Pappou Spiro has spoken.....

 

 

 

I still here it today....Russia wanted to help Cyprus but the EU did not allow it?   I haven't seen this written in any credible source?

But try arguing against someone from Famagusta?