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USA 2020 Elections: The Democrats

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Out of curiosity, do you spend time on twitter? I ask because I spend more time than is healthy on there, and the echo chamber is absolutely insane. You'd think every person in the world were a socialist, judging by them.

This is all to say that perception is not necessarily reality. I actually do agree that radical leftists are dangerous. In fact, I have never in my life wanted even a run of the mill Democrat to win the presidency until these past two cycles. So I am sympathetic to what you're saying...however, I also think that much of what we see is just background noise. At least, I hope it is.

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I saw something go viral a few weeks ago in relation to the George Floyd killing. Some little girl was holding a sign in support on a bike trail, and this older man accosts her (I didn't bother watching the video). Twitter then immediately went internet sleuth and "identified" him, based on the fact that he was white, older, conservative, and lived in that general area (it was in Washington DC). Hundreds of thousands of retweets targeting him, with people happily contacting his employer demanding he get fired.

A few days later I see someone retweet a post made by this same man, who went and turned himself in to police with proof that it wasn't him who yelled at the kid. Was the retweet meant to clear his name? No, it was a person who basically said "F*** this guy, he doesn't even get his privilege, who does he think he is? DOES HE WANT PITY?! HE'S PROBABLY A RACIST"

It's absolutely insane. Sickening. Humans really are a stain on this earth.


And yes the anti-Trump accounts I followed around 2016 have skewed all my algorithms. In the last few months I've circled around to following mostly finance-related and libertarian sources but re-targeting the algorithm is like moving a river. VERY HARD!


All of this is to say that all politics is poison and our anonymous online lives are letting us be the worst possible versions of ourselves. No matter what happens after this election, this is not getting better.

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7 hours ago, tantra129 said:

my issue is the radical left and the outcome they yield


Katina wants to know: do you think the radical left & their actions will help add or subtract votes for the dems? 

Tantra who do you see as the radical left in the US? And what actions and outcome(s) do you refer to? I am just trying to see what you mean, because I hear talk of a radical left, but I never know who the radical lefties are, can you kindly shed some light file?

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On 6/23/2020 at 3:44 PM, tantra129 said:

Katina wants to know: do you think the radical left & their actions will help add or subtract votes for the dems? 

Once again, let's push the Republican misinformation campaign. Let's try to assert that the radical left (whomever that might be - it just sounds scary) have taken or will take over the Democratic Party and that Joe Biden is just a pawn of the radical left.

Over the past several years,  As*hole in Chief Trump has used the term “radical left” to describe almost every single one of his political opponents, ranging from former presidential candidate Hillary Clinton, Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi, Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Rep. Ilhan Omer, and others. Just last month, as*hole in Chief Trump said in a Tweet that “[t]he Radical Left is in total command & control of Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and Google.” And recently, once again, Trump used the term “radical left” in association with former Vice President and current Presidential candidate, Joe Biden.

Radical left is a term to scare potential voters or turn off possible Democratic voters.

As @Tzatziki has asked:

On 6/23/2020 at 11:36 PM, Tzatziki said:

Tantra who do you see as the radical left in the US? And what actions and outcome(s) do you refer to? I am just trying to see what you mean, because I hear talk of a radical left, but I never know who the radical lefties are, can you kindly shed some light file?


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As someone that understands little of US politics, I wonder why Nancy Pelosi didn’t try to go up against Trump.  She’s the only one I’ve seen who seemed to rile him.

As far as policies go, and them making an actual real difference to people, it seems both parties are short on ideas.  At least I haven’t heard anything.  Sure there are ideological differences and whoever gets in will control nominations of judges and that sort of thing.  But in terms of changes “on the ground” does it matter if Trump or Biden wins ?  Whoever wins, Wall St wins and everyone else seems not to.

I find it strange that the Dems don’t go hard for traditional GOP states but say having a policy to invest serious dollars in some of them.  You know, actually trying to improve their lives.  I’m sure voters could be swayed that way.  But I don’t see that, or maybe it’s not reported because it’s boring.  Or maybe they don’t actually plan to to invest much, in which case, why the heck should the voters change their vote, or even bother voting.  Or maybe that’s “socialist” thinking.  Don’t care what anyone says, if you promise to build jobs in red neck towns, they’ll vote for you.

Edited by Bananas
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Dems spend a lot of money in places like Texas, which is trending blue as the Hispanic population grows. The bigger issue (from their perspective) is that much of the deep-red states (mostly in the South) have a very well-organized Republican base. I think I mentioned a few pages back that the Republicans have been very good at organizing a few intense interest groups into a coalition that will move in lockstep; these groups are particularly well-represented in the traditionally red states. Even in states like Georgia, where there are broad swaths of the state that are predominantly black, the minority population is still deeply a minority - wiki tells me that blacks make up only 27% of Georgia, while its capital (Atlanta) is 51% black. I think that media tends to forget that all because you see one concentration of one group, doesn't mean that they are actually the largest group.

There is a possible realignment actually happening now anyway, wherein the southwest (Arizona, New Mexico, Texas) may be trending more liberal as the Hispanic populations both grow and exercise the vote. Meanwhile, the midwest and great lakes regions (which used to be full of swing states due to their large "blue collar" populations) seem to be trending more conservative outside of the bigger cities. There is a very real belief that the Democrats have abandoned them as their traditional manufacturing and agricultural industries have been hit by global markets falling grain prices. The Republicans do listen (though I'm sure liberals would tell you the conservatives are just taking advantage of the rubes, which is itself a hilarious way to look at it IMO). This ultimately may be an example of the right-wing identity politics tantra might be alluding to.

Ultimately it is difficult to allocate money to all states because money is a finite resource. Believe it or not, these parties do not have billions of dollars in reserve, so they need to target carefully for maximum effect. It is often easier to cede control of a place like Arkansas, if they think they have a better chance to take control of Pennsylvania with those same funds. Of course that's on a national, party-wide level - there are plenty of locally based candidates who will gladly take and spend all of your money regardless of which locality you look at.

Not sure what you mean by Nancy Pelosi going up against Trump? Like, in which way?


Oh and for those of you who are questioning the existence of radical leftist candidates - the tone of your question implies that you don't believe they exist, so I'm not sure what the point of trying to convince you of that would be? Like we get it, most of the western world is more liberal than the United States. What's your point?

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Oh she'd never win the nomination. She's a legislator through and through. Doesn't have the stage presence, executive experience, or nationwide following. She basically only represents San Francisco, which you'd think is super liberal, but the momentum of decades in office has led to her being completely and totally safe when reelection time comes. She has a lot of conflict with various groups in the Democratic party but she's also *very* good at controlling them. Why deal with the risk of running for president?

Quora's kind of dumb in general but this first guy's post is great IMO: https://www.quora.com/Is-Nancy-Pelosi-ever-going-to-run-for-president <-- he also brings up the point that she is effectively nearly as powerful as the president, in her own sphere

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12 hours ago, Pepito said:

Once again tantra129 is doing the bidding for the Republican party by pushing their false narrative.

Everyone is pushing their own truth, you cant claim the moral high ground by being a bully, tone it down and stick to the issues don't need to call people out. RESPECT each other please and each others right to disagree or have an opinion that you do not agree with. Otherwise the flow of conversation will degenerate.


3 hours ago, tantra129 said:

Why defund the police?

Have you seen some of the equipment that police departments have in the USA? Have a quick look and you will get the answer to this question file.

As for the radical left, it did exist at one time, maybe in the 60s or 70s where left wing organizations actually comitted acts of terror and such. Today there is no radical left, it is a made up fantasy used to excuse and legitimize the neo nazis (alt right).


1 hour ago, Bananas said:

As in why didn't she try and run for the Dem nomination ?

She does not have enough "likeability" to win.

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Demilitarization is a must. In keeping with the money theme, though - police departments generally get these for free, as the military decommissions equipment. I'm sure there's some budget-related accounting chicanery that takes place to allow both sides to realize additional benefits from this arrangement, as well:

Moundsville is in West Virginia (one of the poorest states in the union), and has a population less than 10,000. "“We could use it for various things,” Mitchell said. He said the department can use it as a “tactical resource vehicle” for various scenarios." https://www.theintelligencer.net/news/top-headlines/2020/06/moundsville-police-department-unveils-tactical-resource-vehicle/



Also, a good article about what I think is a much bigger problem - the power of police unions have over, well, everything.


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On 6/24/2020 at 8:27 PM, Tzatziki said:

Everyone is pushing their own truth, you cant claim the moral high ground by being a bully

? People might be pushing opinions. People might be pushing lies. But please DO NOT say that 'everyone is pushing their own truth' - there is only one truth. Let's work toward uncovering it. While you might be calling it 'bullying', I'm calling it 'confronting intentional lies' and standing up against those that push false narratives and right wing propaganda.

I do get your point and I will tone it down.


On 6/24/2020 at 8:27 PM, Tzatziki said:

As for the radical left, it did exist at one time, maybe in the 60s or 70s where left wing organizations actually comitted acts of terror and such. Today there is no radical left, it is a made up fantasy used to excuse and legitimize the neo nazis (alt right).

Could not agree more.

On 6/24/2020 at 5:20 PM, tantra129 said:

I'm sure we share some common goals in life, one of which would be to get the best possible candidate in the WH as President. Nor Trump nor Biden are that candidate.

This is not a common goal we share. First of all you don't vote in the US. I do. Second, this is not a question about 'the best possible candidate'. We don't live in La-La Land. The players are set, the lines are drawn. The battle is between Trump and Biden. Don't give me the 'Biden is not good enough'. As I said in my very first post addressing your postings. Pick a side. There are two competitors, one battleground. If you are not with one, then you support the other. The rules of the game are as clear as daylight.

'Two men enter, one man leaves'


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On 6/26/2020 at 11:07 PM, tantra129 said:

triggered radical left

There are fruits of every kind.  For sure there are radical lefties, but people use the term radical left as if there is a counter to the alt right movement. This is false. And it used by people to legitimize the neo nazis in an attempt to normalize them and make people forget or not see that they are simply neo nazis under a new branding. Exactly how Haliburton changed their name or a business that declares bankruptcy only to reopen under a new name.

There are left wing nuts for sure, but there is no radical left as it is being made to seem, like organized groups. Black lives matter is not radical, it is so fundamental or elementary that the fact that it is needed or even discussed in 2020 makes me disgusted with how little progress we have made as a species.


On 6/26/2020 at 6:06 PM, Pepito said:

But please DO NOT say that 'everyone is pushing their own truth' - there is only one truth.

Is some ways yes, 2+2=4 that is true. But in life, things are more nuanced and not always black or white. In many cases there is not only one truth in my opinion. Everyone's own experience and point of view has an effect on what they see to be true. Some things are simply not scientifically measurable or explicitly proven, many things are subjective or relative. You seem to be smart enough I think to come up with a scenario or two where the truth is not always so cut and dry, and there might be more than just one.

Thanks for agreeing to tone it down, it is in the interest of keeping a good discourse going and not having things go pear shaped or turning to bird bath conversation. It will be more fun for everyone here if we can argue our points in good faith and good content.

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Since this topic is about the 2020 Elections: The Democrats...

Thomas Friedman wrote an OpEd in the NYT arguing that Biden shouldn't debate Trump unless the latter makes his tax returns public, as every prez candidate has done in the last 50 years.  Also, that there should be fact checkers, who before the show is over, will point out the fallacies/misstatements/lies said during the debate. NYT article

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Mexicans, Greeks, et al, vote if they're citizens...  But, unfortunately there is electoral fraud (I didn't say voter fraud), since it's the policy of the Republican party to prevent people and groups from voting, and they draw districts in such a way as to favor their party. That's why you see their party gets more seats in states like Wisconsin, N. Carolina, etc, even though it gets fewer votes than the Dem party.

As to picking a side, wouldn't you say the rules determine how the game is played?

Of course, so the next president WILL BE either a Dem or a Repub--Biden or Trump. If they die before the election, their parties will replace them with someone else. Voting for another candidate, hoping for a change, it's a wasted effort in my opinion. And, it's stupid today, if I may add, because these two are so different that there's a clear choice; and no one should sit this out.

By the way, have you thought why there have been 2 major parties/coalitions in American politics since the first election?

The system favors 2 major parties, plus, in my opinion, tradition plays a role...


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I want rainbows and butterflies, and all people to live in harmony.  But, the reality is different. And, if you don't truly understand reality, including how the game is played, you can't be a force for change. At least for change that leads to positive outcomes.

ps. same coin, but it's like, heads you live, tails you die... (I hope you see the difference)

Edited by Epicurus
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On 7/14/2020 at 5:29 PM, AchillesHeel said:

For you (and most people in the western world, myself included) reality is a matter of convenience, an excuse for accepting and not having to make too strenuous an effort to effect and affect change and just go with the flow. ...

pps. here is the reality: same coin ....heads or tails we all die in the end

1. "in the western world" reality is a matter of convenience?! Whatever this means...    But, the reality remains: the facts, some of which are rules made by humans, like the US constitution, and 50-state electoral systems. I have marched in protest, voted & been politically active, talked to people, and have tried to understand how the system works in order to change it for the better. I'm also old enough to realize that the perfect cannot be the enemy of the practical. Was the Emancipation a positive step? Of course, even though it took another 100 years to reverse some of the most cruel laws/ social norms--and we still have much to do. Those who oversimplify tend to be ignoramuses in my opinion. In real terms, I could see you saying Hitler/Stalin being two sides of same coin, but HRC/DJT?!  Actually I'm appalled by such ridiculously ignorant statement. The country would be going in a different direction, in which science, competence, education, environment, economics (taxes and social safety net) health, immigration, etc, etc.would have been addressed in a very different manner by  HRC than the current moron-in-charge has taken us into.  Apparently those issues don't matter to you!?!

2. Another reality: the laws of nature, which include dying. Great. So, go ahead and die after you read this. If you continue to live, then you disagree with yourself...  that even though you will die one day, you now want to continue to experience life. And, I'm betting you care which side of the coin comes up... So, savor your days alive!


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5 hours ago, AchillesHeel said:

Listen Pepito, you're the one who stated that it's heads you live, tails you die, not me and stating that if I continue to live afterwards I am disagreeing with myself?

Please do not call my name in vain!

Seriously, maybe you should re-evaluate things when more than one individuals points out the same fallacy in your arguments. Go back to the drawing board.

22 hours ago, Epicurus said:

Those who oversimplify tend to be ignoramuses in my opinion.

I agree with this statement. On the other hand though, it's tough for all of us to see through confirmation bias.  

I think this topic is getting out of hand - again. 

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10 hours ago, AchillesHeel said:

I like discussion and enjoy exchanging ideas, especially with opposing views but when someone is so utterly convinced they are right and does not see that for every point of view there are a myriad of different opinions that can be debated then it's just no fun.

Just listen to yourself! Contradicting yourself once again, all in one sentence.


Back on the topic and Democrats,  civil rights legend Rep. John Lewis dead at 80. Lewis was one of the "Big Six" civil rights leaders, which included Martin Luther King Jr, and helped organize the historic 1963 March on Washington. As a congressman he was a Georgia Democrat, and represented an area which covered most of its capital Atlanta.

May his soul rest in peace. Dios lo tenga en su gloria


Edited by Pepito
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On the subject (oh, my! what a risky move talking about the topic at hand) changing demographics and a backlash to Trump has reshaped the Arizona's politics. Could Arizona really turn Democratic? (The Guardian) I hope so. It seems that states voted for Republicans in previous years will be up for grabs in these coming elections. While Democrats should be encouraged from the fact that they can fight for electoral votes, they should by no means relax with the idea that they might become the favorite party if this mishandling from the current incompetent government continues.

One of the bigger questions are: Can the voters of Kentucky award the Senate seat to Democrats and terminate Mitch (the Turtle) McConnell?


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On 7/24/2020 at 4:38 AM, Soprano76 said:

Mitch ain't getting bumped from his spot.

FiveThirtyEight has recent polls that confirm your point ( McGrath 33% /McConnell 55%). In terms of Republicans joining the Biden camp, I think that is a short term adjustment with the sole purpose of rescuing the Republican Party from the further destruction of Trumpism. According to the LA Times "No president in modern history has faced such organized opposition to his reelection by members of his own party." 

From The Lincoln Project (an American political action committee formed in late 2019 by several prominent Republicans and former Republicans)


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On 7/24/2020 at 4:38 AM, Soprano76 said:

I wonder if this re-alignment of the political spectrum, where moderate republicans essentially permanently join up with the Dems, is built to last.

@Soprano76 An article on CNN discusses this very same question: How the Lincoln Project's brutal anti-Trump ads could remake US politics

Once all is said and done, Republicans will go back to being Republicans is they manage to save the party from Trump. If Trump gets re-elected -for what ever reason - the Republican party is no more.

Democrats will take what ever they can get.

Edited by Pepito
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9 hours ago, Pepito said:

If Trump gets re-elected -for what ever reason - the Republican party is no more.

It is very rare to see an incumbent lose, but it has happened a handful of times, we will see. I don't think sleepy Joe can beat him, I hope he does but I just don't see it. I wish the dems could bring in some new blood, someone young, in the future I hope we could see them nominate someone like AOC.

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