australia Un-Australian: Dividing the Country

[Lazarus]

This is from BBC:

Vegan protests: 'Un-Australian' activists arrested, PM Morrison says

Australian Prime Minister Scott Morrison has criticised animal rights activists as "shameful and un-Australian" after dozens were arrested in nationwide protests.

While - I have to admit - I'm note sure where PM Scott Morrison stands on issues, It looks to me like taking out a page from the Orange Orangutan's (Donald Trump) book. Divide the country in an effort to conquer. Pitch one group of people against another and start creating a condition that is hostile to people sharing values. Probably now is a good time to break up labor unions also?

It seems that everywhere one turns, it's a right wing full frontal attack to the voice of the people.

[athinaios]

When you label people or groups as "un-.." it's a way of saying that they are less than worthy. 

Trump would love to have a dpt or agency to combat "un-American activities".... He also thinks that criticism of the prez or of national policy is treason!

[Tzatziki]

On 4/8/2019 at 12:03 PM, Lazarus said:

1-Probably now is a good time to break up labor unions also?

2-It seems that everywhere one turns, it's a right wing full frontal attack to the voice of the people.

1-Whatever is left of them.

2-It is the trend, squeezing every last drop.

[Hudson]

Labor unions have never been in such decline in the US... 10% of workers. In the private sector is less than 6%. Unions won more for all US workers, not just their members. I think Iceland has the highest unionized work force, 90%, unless you include the ..Vatican with 100%.

Yeah, the marketplace has advantages but without labor and consumer protections it becomes a playground for the robber barons.

[Alphonse]

Oh come one! It is un-Australian, we keep hearing about vegetarians and their choice, they don't need to keep raming it down our throats - Many Australians agree with Mr Morrison very much so

[Lazarus]

On 4/21/2019 at 9:44 PM, Alphonse said:

It is un-Australian, we keep hearing about vegetarians and their choice, they don't need to keep raming it down our throats

Wow. Calling something un-Australian because it does not agree with one's culinary preferences, or does freedom of speech only apply to online forums and social media?

Even the fact that Mr. Morrison now all of a sudden can label those that disagree with him as un-Australian, should make any citizen of the country crap in their pants.

Of course, Australia does not have explicit freedom of speech in any constitutional or statutory declaration of rights, with the exception of political speech which is protected from criminal prosecution at common law per Australian Capital Television Pty Ltd v Commonwealth.

As I said, I'm not that familiar with Australian politics, but I know a duck when I see one.

[Bananas]

For what it's worth, the term un-Australian is thrown around often in Australia.  For the most part, the populace just ignores it, seeing it for what it is.  Generally, it's used by the "conservative" media and in the case where Morrison used it, it was in a, for lack of a better term, red-neck part of Australia.  Politically and strategically it was an easy card for him to play.

[Tzatziki]

Personally I love meat and would never stop eating it outright. But there are many benefits to vegetarian and vegan lifestyles. How is this a national issue though don't people ahve more serious issues to take care of first?

[Alphonse]

4 hours ago, Tzatziki said:

Personally I love meat and would never stop eating it outright. But there are many benefits to vegetarian and vegan lifestyles. How is this a national issue though don't people ahve more serious issues to take care of first?

It’s not really that big a deal tbh, Morrison is a great leader and much better than that Shorten flop.

There are indeed more serious issues to worry about.

Lazarus, I don’t think you know what Scott Morrison is aboutl. The fact your outraged that he called those silly vegetarians out and rightly so is prob a showing to that. It’s ok we’re all different but worse has been called out than this example, like what the media don’t  say about Sri Lanka compared to what we saw in NZ, and what Billy Shorten won’t answer when asked about his policies lol

Edited April 24, 2019 by Alphonse

[Bananas]

Oof, Morrison is a great leader.  I don’t see what you’re seeing.  Is he a better leader than Shorten ?  Probably.  But that isn’t hard to achieve.  Shorten is the last of what’s left of a party bereft of inspiration.  They’ve had zero policies of substance for years and their election strategy, when you break it down, is full on gutter trash lies.  Basically they’ve gone into full on fear strategy mode with outright lies, but hey, I don’t really expect better these days.

Case in point, a huge billboard near my place has a picture of pensioners with the line “Labor will steal your savings”.  Um ok.

[Alphonse]

Shorten is a walking disaster 

[Bananas]

Walking disaster in what way ?  Sure he has the face of a fink and is is the sort of guy you wouldn’t want to be stuck with at a wedding table.  But which of Labor’s policies are worse than the Liberals.

The major ones I know of (and I don’t follow it in detail are) :-

1) removal of negative gearing for existing properties.  New properties can still be negatively geared.  The policy will also not be retrospective.  According to Labor this will make the system “fairer”.  According to Liberals this will destroy property values.  Both assessments are lies.  The truth is negative gearing in 90% of situations benefits very high income earners and they will just buy new properties instead of existing ones.

2) something about franking credits with shares.  This will affect retirees with lots of shares (outside of superannuation).  I think this is what the Liberals referred to as “stealing your savings”.

3) Adani mine.  Labor is highly likely to block this.  Liberals are doing everything in their power to rush it through and this is nothing but trying to winthe election now.  If the Barrier Reef gets polluted, we’ll worry about that later.  Adani, I’m neither for or against.  If it can be built without causing massive pollution and government handouts, I’m all right with it.  But when you basically ignore the reports from the experts and rush it throughout parliament, seriously it’s a joke.

[Alphonse]

So Labor want to increase taxes on Australian retirees but allow 100000 older foreigners long-stay parent visas? This will only increase pressure on infrastructure and the budget.

I don’t like his gender agenda and constant references to pro feminism crap

Shorten has refused to put a cost on his climate change policy Labor can't justify damage to the economy that an emissions reduction policy will inflict. He also wants to implement a death tax for F***s sake.

 

[Bananas]

It’s not an increased tax on retirees.  It’s reducing the unsustainable hand outs from the Howard era.  With the ageing population increasing, someone has to pay for it.  The other option is we get our kids to pay for it.  Worked out well for Greece.

The gender stuff, agree, it does my head in.

Climate change, I think we should at least be listening to the scientists.  If I have to choose between listening to a bunch of nerds who study weather or professional liars with vested interests (politicians) I’m inclined to believe the nerds.  They are just telling us what they measure.  Agree Labor’s costings aren’t worth much.  They are being cynical and trying to get the young vote.

Give me a baseball bat for 5 minutes with the lot of them locked in a room, and that would be my definition of an awesome birthday present.

N.B. Haven’t voted for a major party in 20 years.

Edited April 24, 2019 by Bananas

[paokara777]

It's not un-Australian to be Vegan, you can do whatever you want in Australia as long as you obey the (fair and progressive imo) laws.

The un-Australian thing Scomo was talking about was them chaining themselves to machinery in farms to prevent farmers from doing their job. 

That is most definitely un Australian and un democratic. It is anarchy.

Why does everyone in here bash everything except ultra-liberalism ? Wake up

 

[Lazarus]

3 hours ago, paokara777 said:

The un-Australian thing Scomo was talking about was them chaining themselves to machinery in farms to prevent farmers from doing their job. 

I would call that illegal trespassing and have them arrested. Still, I don't see how a label like 'un-Australian' could be used for anything else other than divisive purposes.

3 hours ago, paokara777 said:

Why does everyone in here bash everything except ultra-liberalism ? Wake up

Funny how you think that people that don't think like you, are not part of the same reality. The sooner one comes to terms that there could be multiple opinions on some issues, the better it is for all. Through discussion, new ideas emerge, and the world moves past labels and divisive stigma.

"Democracy... is a charming form of government, full of variety and disorder; and dispensing a sort of equality to equals and unequals alike." - Plato

[Alphonse]

9 hours ago, Bananas said:

Give me a baseball bat for 5 minutes with the lot of them locked in a room, and that would be my definition of an awesome birthday present.

N.B. Haven’t voted for a major party in 20 years.

Haha, you and your baseball bats 

Bravo for not voting for the majors!

Happy Anzac Day

[paokara777]

20 hours ago, Lazarus said:

I would call that illegal trespassing and have them arrested. Still, I don't see how a label like 'un-Australian' could be used for anything else other than divisive purposes.

Funny how you think that people that don't think like you, are not part of the same reality. The sooner one comes to terms that there could be multiple opinions on some issues, the better it is for all. Through discussion, new ideas emerge, and the world moves past labels and divisive stigma.

"Democracy... is a charming form of government, full of variety and disorder; and dispensing a sort of equality to equals and unequals alike." - Plato

On the Scomo "un-australian" comment I still don't think you understand. He wasn't calling the protest unaustralian, just the way they went about it. In other words he was calling the criminal act of breaking, entering and disturbing the peace "un-australian"

 

Regarding people not thinking like me are not part of the same reality, first when did i say that?

I agree wholeheartedly and absolutely love debate, discussion and questioning. This is how Democracy thrives. Socratic Method.

Question. Offend. Critique. I welcome healthy debate.

 

Your Plato quote i could etch into my skin.

 

Your comment earlier "It seems that everywhere one turns, it's a right wing full frontal attack to the voice of the people."

If there is a mass of people swinging Right, then aren't they also "the people" ? or can only the liberal left be labeled "the people" ?

 

Don't both sides of the spectrum deserve a say?

 

Isn't that the very essence of democracy?

 

Balance.

 

[Lazarus]

7 hours ago, paokara777 said:

He wasn't calling the protest unaustralian, just the way they went about it.

Again, if a group of people have the right to protest, they either do it in a legal or illegal manner. There's nothing that says one choice is more 'Australian' than the other. The choice is strictly between 'legal' or 'illegal'

 

7 hours ago, paokara777 said:

Regarding people not thinking like me are not part of the same reality, first when did i say that?

This is exactly what you said. The term you used is 'Wake up' and urges people to move from the stage of sleep (subconscious) to that of consciousness (reality). Read for yourself.

 

On 4/24/2019 at 9:49 AM, paokara777 said:

Why does everyone in here bash everything except ultra-liberalism ? Wake up

7 hours ago, paokara777 said:

If there is a mass of people swinging Right, then aren't they also "the people" ? or can only the liberal left be labeled "the people" ?

The term 'the People' is not a descriptor of numbers. Rather, it implies individuals that are members of the working class in a society and each are on equal standing with their peers.

By definition, right-wing politics hold that certain social orders and hierarchies are inevitable, natural, normal, or desirable. Hierarchy and inequality may be viewed as natural results of traditional social differences or the competition in market economies.

Labor unions are considered 'the voice of the people' - whereas collective bargaining is pursued in order to maintain and improve the living standards of their members. Unions restrain the unfettered operation of capitalism by bargaining for such things as shorter hours and higher wages.

Since - as described above - right-wing politics espouse hierarchy and inequality they oppose (in general) labor unions in pursuit of higher gains for the owners of the means of capital production.

So, if labor unions are 'the People' and right-wing politics oppose labor unions, can we conclude that right-wing politics can never become 'the People'?

Of course one can seek to attach the term to a quantitative measure of more than one person (i.e. two persons = the people) in an effort to make words and terms appear to have no meaning whatsoever.

Through the years, civil society has tended to be seen as liberal: supportive of human rights, democratic reform and the protection of minorities. Often, it is still these "progressive" causes that appeal to younger activists and voters.

Quote

Don't both sides of the spectrum deserve a say?
Isn't that the very essence of democracy?
Balance.

Certainly. I agree with you on this.

[paokara777]

4 hours ago, Lazarus said:

Again, if a group of people have the right to protest, they either do it in a legal or illegal manner. There's nothing that says one choice is more 'Australian' than the other. The choice is strictly between 'legal' or 'illegal'

Yeah, i get your angle on this however I don't think it is reasonable to condemn the Prime Minister of a country for discouraging criminal acts. He called it un Australian to discourage that form of protest. We might have to agree to disagree on this one but I completely agree with this comment. I mean, imagine the right wing protesters start reverting to violence or illegal activities in retaliation. Oh wait, they do. (Charlotte etc).

Quote

This is exactly what you said. The term you used is 'Wake up' and urges people to move from the stage of sleep (subconscious) to that of consciousness (reality). Read for yourself.

My comment "Wake up" was referring to waking up to the reality that there are other political views that are just as legitimate as social democracy.

Regarding "the people" yes that is a term traditionally describing the working class.

However see the last USA election, how the working classes are switching to the message that Trump was trying to get across.

The Democratic party seems to be drifting away from its roots - helping the middle class blue collar workers get a fair shake and has moved further left and the message resonates more with millennials than it does the middle aged factory worker. The election results echoed this.

But i agree with everything you said, regardless. Just that some of "the people" feel like they haven't been heard under the Obama admin and decided that their voices might be better heard if they jumped ship. Which they did.

[Lazarus]

21 hours ago, paokara777 said:

Yeah, i get your angle on this however I don't think it is reasonable to condemn the Prime Minister of a country for discouraging criminal acts.

Words matter. Words coming from the leader of a nation carry even more weight. His choice of words is not coincidental.

It is this choice of words that I find myopic in terms of leading a country. Short term political gains that erode a nation's long-term social cohesion.