Television documentary on derby

[Kevin]

Hello,

My name is Kevin and I am doing research for Irish television station RTE on European football derbies to be shown in a documentary series. One of the featured programmes is on the Panathinaikos V Olympiakos derby.

I was hoping forumers could offer me some assistance. In particular i was hoping you could recommend bars and cafes where Panithainaikos fans visit so we can chat to passionate fans and gain an insight to Greek football and the derby. There is a possibility that well informed interesting fans will be featured on the programme and it would be great if people volunteered to meet the television researchers.

I would be also grateful in the meantime if people could provide any unusual facts about the derby, or significant events in previous derby matches. Perhaps great players who have graced previous derbies. I am intersted in the history of the fan rivalry and the cultural, historical political reasons for the hatred. I was reading that there was speculation that Collina was going to referee the 2003 derby such was the mistrust in Greek officials but have yet to uncover whather this actually happened. I also interested in the symbolism of the shamrock as the clubs emblen.

Any information you can offer would be gratefully received,

Many thanks Kevin

[Evergreen]

I've been an organised fan for years whilst I've been following the club for 20 years.

I live in London, but will be in Glasgow for the next 3 days. If you like I would be more than happy to hook up and give you the information you are looking for.

I've sent you a PM with my information.

[slick13]

theese derbies is full of hate and death wishes!

during match time many of us wait for a olympiakos player to simply fall and die :P

it is like if u win u get extra dignity and hold youre head up high.

here is a panathinaikos link(hardcore fans)

http://www.gate13.gr/

[Panos13]

Evergreen,

If you meet up with Kevin, make sure to tell him about the derby of 3 years ago at Rizoupoli. He will find it quite unbelievable. Tell him also about Papoutseli and Papadakos.

[pittman13]

yea....

xeraseta ola...

[alexch]

theese derbies is full of hate and death wishes!

during match time many of us wait for a olympiakos player to simply fall and die :P

it is like if u win u get extra dignity and hold youre head up high.

here is a panathinaikos link(hardcore fans)

http://www.gate13.gr/

ye u can see on the site also how lovely PAO fans are tht they even have a section for OLYMPIAKOS banners and pictures... oi gay....

[drakos13]

theese derbies is full of hate and death wishes!

during match time many of us wait for a olympiakos player to simply fall and die :P

it is like if u win u get extra dignity and hold youre head up high.

here is a panathinaikos link(hardcore fans)

http://www.gate13.gr/

ye u can see on the site also how lovely PAO fans are tht they even have a section for OLYMPIAKOS banners and pictures... oi gay....

those are trophies stolen, smartass.

[trifilli]

LEOFOROS. GATE 13 FANS. :nw:

I am intersted in the history of the fan rivalry and the cultural, historical political reasons for the hatred.

Dear Kevin:

I would like to give you my perspective which might, or might not, be different from other Panathinaikos fans.

I was born and raised in Athens, less than a mile away from our historic home ground at Alexandras Avenue. We call our home "Leoforos"(avenue in Greek)

The official name however, is "Apostolos Nikolaidis" after a very influential member of the Panathinaikos family, as a player and president.

Panathinaikos Athlitikos Omilos (PAO) is the Pan (all of) Athenian Athletic Club.

It is an Athletic club, NOT just a football club.

There are Basketball, Voleyball, Water- Polo, swimming, gymnastics, track and field, weight lifting, fencing, and many more departments.

My active involvement with PAO started when I joined the swimming team at the age of 6. I have been a "TRIFYLLI" (shamrock) for life. Cheered for my 'beloved", from our fanatics section (GATE 13), back when the stands were standing room only...

Some of those boys next to me, are now VIP season ticket holders, for both our football and Basketball teams.

One of the guys I played football against, as a teenager, is none other than Yiannis Vardinoyiannis, the football department majority shareholder, also known by his racing nickname "Tzigger". He played for the "Athens College" high school team, which was one of my school's principle rivals.

His family, a very prominent and influential one in Greece, became the principal owners of football PAO in late 1979, when football in Greece became officially "professional", shedding it's semi-pro status.

There are some profound distinctions between the two rivals PAO and OSFP:

The founder of Panathinaikos, George Calafatis studied medicine at the University of Athens and gymnastics at the Academy of Gymnastics.

PAO was formed by highly educated men as an Athletic club of Athens,

that represented, as it's name indicates, ALL of Athens.

The area of "Leoforos" ground, (Ampelokypoi: vine gardens) was one of the best ones at the time, and borders the upscale "Northern Suburbs" of Athens.

Osfp was an "offspring" of Peiraikos, formed as an "Olympic" fan club of Peireas.

It represents the less affluent port of Peireas.

While this is likely a common misconception and there might be little truth to it,

osfp is considered to be a club for the masses, while PAO is more elitist.

Tied to the above, is a claim made by osfp fans, that they outnumber those of PAO in gross numbers, taking into account the Greek fan base worldwide.

The emblems are unique as well.

PAO's shamrock and green color, are believed to be a choice of the founders during WWI, symbolizing Peace, luck and hope. I do not doubt there is an Irish influence there. The osfp "olympic winner" logo, comes from the name, and is considered by their fans to be more Greek... Although their color RED, is NOT, (Turkish flag is red/white) and it is known as a violent and passionate color.

There are also sociopolitical ideologies, that again many argue are representative of the two.

Unsubstantiated rumors claim that PAO is the team of the New Democracy political party, while osfp the socialist PASOK party. There is some truth to this, since Socrates Kokalis, the osfp owner had been highly influential during the PASOK years, when osfp won several titles. PAO was more successful during the previous administrations, and the "family" has ties to members of the New Democracy party.

How much politics can influence sports, has been a subject of many discussions in Greece.

Let me say that there is a long way from the above differences, to the pure hate that some fans, of both sides, are obsessed with, and overtaken by, during the derbies of the "eternals" (eternal rivals).

It has not always been that way.

During the 1971 European Cup semifinal, PAO vs Red Star Belgrade,

several osfp fans, at Leoforos, were holding signs, showing their support for their fellow Greek team, Panathinaikos. :gr:

PAO beat Red Star and went on to the final at Wembley stadium vs the historic Ajax team of Johan Cruiff.

The 70's were years of social and political change in Greece.

1974 brought the collapse of the CIA established and supported Dictatorial Regime of the Colonels of April 21 1967.

Junta, as it was called from the Spanish name of South American Dictatorships also supported by the USA, fell, and with it came freedom. What many, who did not live in Greece at the time, do not know, is that the ELAS and KYP sectors of the police, were involved in abuse ordered by the generals, to suppress political freedom of speech. Due to that, the police was widely hated and mistrusted for years to come.

That was one of the reasons for the growing fan violence between fans and police.

There were numerous chants taunting and ridiculing the MAT division (swat team) every time they entered the stadiums:

"Mpatsoi, gourounia, dolofonoi" (cops, pigs, murderers)

"Nata ta paidakia, (here come the little kids)

me ta ropalakia, (with the clubs)

xoris ta ropalakia, (without the clubs)

eisaste mounakia..." (you are little cunts...)

The hatred for the police was widely accepted, because of their recent crimes against Polytechnic students that revolted on November 17 1973, against the Junta.

Many young lads and gals, including one my cousins friend's that was in the "Polythechnio", died those days...I remember with awe as a young child...

Hooliganism, named after Hooligan, an Irish freedom fighter, was becoming a big problem in the UK and inspired many European followers.

The increasing number of Greek sports dailies with their rhetoric, and vile content, polarized the fans in order to sell more to the addicted masses.

There is an amazing number of newspapers in Greece, political, gossip and sports.

I read a report, that Greece has one of the highest number of newspapers per capita.

There are 16 sports papers, some claim to be "independent", while others are openly supporting a team(s). Controversy and demagogue, sell...

http://www.kontra.gr/Pressroom.html

Society has become more violent in general, we see it in every day life.

Although, alcohol is NOT consumed, by the vast majority of football hooligans in Greece, there has been a rise in drug use among youths.

The owners of some teams and most notoriously 'Mr."? Kokalis have been involved in insults and "ungentlemanlike" comments and behaviour to become "popular" amongst the ranks of "hard core" fans.

The two teams have their weak spots which are ridiculed by the opposing fans.

While osfp has the largest selection of domestic trophies, it is PAO who has been far more successful abroad. Both in Basketball (3 time Euro Champion, repeated top 4 finishes)

and football (Euro finalist 71, semis in 84,87,96, most recently QF in 02, 03)

Even the Greek NT in both football and basketball that were both European Champions in 04 and 05 were in their majority composed of PAO players.

That is something the "gauro" (osfp fan nickname: small anchovy like fish) cannot digest easily.

Fan violence is a problem in Greek sports, one that is so engraved in the psyche of the hotheaded fan that is going to take years of education and measures to combat.

Many derbies are played without visiting fans.

PAO does not endorse fan travel, in fear of monetary and other punishments.

Games are played in empty stadiums, fans are banned from attendance, clubs are fined severely, to no avail, with minimum results, until the "brain washing" comes to an end.

Please understand that it is the small, but "vocal" minority, that sticks out "like a sore thumb". Most healthy fans, myself, "trifilli", included, LOVE their team but do NOT hate their opponents. Personally I only dislike fans that hurt my PANATHINAIKOS, regardless of what team they support. Unfortunately often some "vazeles" (derogatory term for PAO fan, named after Vaseline) are the ones to hurt my PAO ...

These are "so called" fanatics that put their personal agendas over the good of our team and are Panathas worse enemy.

PEACE

Official PAO site

http://www.madboys.gr/

http://www.ultras13.com/

http://www.greenwebfans.com

http://www.footballderbies.com/olympiakos-...s-panathinaikos

PS: There are many more PAO websites that you could refer to for pictures video and information.

[bar7]

that was pretty good man :nw:

[Akritis_1944]

Trifilli's history lesson was definitely fair and interesting and I am an OSFP filathlo.

I follow OSFP for some of the reasons he mentioned above.

I have a distrust (bordering on hatred) of conservative money men politicians who traditionally and historically were part of ND and because of the links that Trifilli mentioned above I leaned more to Olympiakos. However, in recent years the rich and powerful have infiltrated all political parties (kokkalis being an example).

My family has always been working class and I always got the sense that the PAO establishment and what they represented were always part of the elite of Athens.

Also my father and his brothers were in the Politiko Nautiko and for years after that were sea merchants and their departure point on their voyages were always the port of Pireaus (Peireas). This was another link that drew me to Olympiakos.

I remember when I was 10 years old and the first and up and until now the only time I was in Greece, I was kicking a football with the PAO trifilii emblem around the main square of my fathers town in Tripolis, Arcadia and an older guy (He may have only been 25, but as a 10 year old anyone over 12 was old to me then) stopped me and my brother and said something like PAO was for the rich in Athens and not for the folk Arcadia!

That is just my take about the rivalry between the two. The lines seem to be blurred when it comes to sociopolitical factors and which teams one supports.

The rivalry between OLYMPIAKOS AND PAO is very intense and in my opinion is equally fascinating to a Rangers - Celtic, or Boca Juniors - River Plate, or AC or Inter Milan derby.

[Guest Protathlitis7]

Be sure to mention the dominance this record

games played: 113

Olympiakos: 42

draws: 43

PAO: 30

Its for this reason OSFP fans have the term: Pelates. from the aerobics thing. It is a term used to describe the dominance had in games between us. If you cant already tell the term has 'adult' connotations.

Pao fans will tell you that they have a better european record, which they do have. How ever an OSFP fan will tell you that while they have 33 Championships they have PAO have only 16

I would say the derby is perhaps one of the most violent in Europe, apart from maybe Polish derbies. Its almost impossible for violence not to occur as in every sport it does occur; Volleyball, Basketball, Water polo :rolleyes: , but of course the greatest rivalry is found in football

Its often said that one of the problems with Greek football is that fans care more about there team than football itself. That is why its a derby of hate. Thats why when I say I hate PAO and hate them and I do not respect them; not their players, not their fans or their organisation do we respect :box: :not:

The only time I wanted PAO to win a game was when they played Fenerbache for reasons which go beyond football.

For me derbies with PAO have been my favourite memories as someone for someone who follows sport

I dont know why the topic in the Olympiakos forum was closed but as I am in Greece now I would be happy to assist and show you to the kind of places you are looking for with some of the most passionate OSFP fans.

The reason I am Olympiakos is because of my father. My uncle was also a member of Gate 7 and he taught me alot about the club. We pride ourselves on the 12th man aspect as even if a chant eminating from the stands may be criticising those in charge we will always support our team while its playing. We NEVER leave our team alone. and thats why if you watch a championsleauge match we could be losing at the Bernabeu but our fans will still be heard above the whole stadium, same as when we travelled to Anfield despite their reputation for having vocal fans.

[Guest Protathlitis7]

. The osfp "olympic winner" logo, comes from the name, and is considered by their fans to be more Greek... Although their color RED, is NOT, (Turkish flag is red/white) and it is known as a violent and passionate color.

lol?? most of your anaylsis was good until you said this??? Turk colours??

[alexch]

theese derbies is full of hate and death wishes!

during match time many of us wait for a olympiakos player to simply fall and die :P

it is like if u win u get extra dignity and hold youre head up high.

here is a panathinaikos link(hardcore fans)

http://www.gate13.gr/

ye u can see on the site also how lovely PAO fans are tht they even have a section for OLYMPIAKOS banners and pictures... oi gay....

those are trophies stolen, smartass.

yeh i think i know but people who dont just probably ask themselves y r they holding OSFP banners....? no need to call me a smartass either... humour is different to being a smartass... <_<

[Akritis_1944]

. The osfp "olympic winner" logo, comes from the name, and is considered by their fans to be more Greek... Although their color RED, is NOT, (Turkish flag is red/white) and it is known as a violent and passionate color.

lol?? most of your anaylsis was good until you said this??? Turk colours??

Agreed.

What would the green colour indicate then? Loyalties to PASOK perhaps? unlikely!

The issue of team colour is irrelevant. The Turks don't own the colour red. Neither did the USSR back when. This is -if you pardon the pun- a "red" herring.

All I know is that the red and white stripes look better than the big green monster shirts.

[Guest Protathlitis7]

The Turkish star and cresant is a Greek symbol adopted by them anyway. Also a black dikefalos with a red background was a flag of the Church.

[trifilli]

The color RED, to many, is directly connected to the Turkish flag, and the USSR/communism.

Neither of which, bring good memories to me.

It is a personal statement, and I will not claim it to be the universal truth.

I do not mention the crescent anywhere in my posts.

For personal and taste reasons, red, and all it's shades, (pink etc) is my least favorite color.

The osfp thread has reopened.

I urge ALL fans to keep unrelated comments in their team's forum.

PEACE

[TRIFILARA]

Hi Kevin,

Hope all goes well with the documentary.... im sure you will find alot of info from the people in these forums.

I would just like to say that trifilli's 1st post on the subject is pretty spot on. This paints a good picture of our team and how most Panathinaikos supporters think, so there isnt much more to add. (trifilli, Bravo file :nw: )

I would also like to point out the difference in class between trifilli's & Protathlitis7's 1st posts... this pretty much says it all :)

goodluck in your research!!

PAO 4 LIFE!!!! :gr:

[pittman13]

The Turkish star and cresant is a Greek symbol adopted by them anyway. Also a black dikefalos with a red background was a flag of the Church.

u have stars on your red commi turky uniforms... dont u?

dont be shy of your legacy dude...

FREE CYPRUS...

[Panos13]

Dear Kevin,

One more thing you need to know about is that Olympiakos fans include thousands of Albanians.

Also, traditionally, Oly fans are associated with homosexuality. Have a look here:

http://www.gaysports.com/page.cfm?sectioni...=links&parent=1

[TRIFILARA]

:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

[GS1905]

one correction... OSFP has 33 titles to PAO's 19... not 16...

[HELLAS-KYPROS-ENWSIS]

PANATHINAIKOS-FENERBACHE 4-1

OLYMPIAKOS-GALATASARAY 3-0

ANORTHOSIS-TRAMPZONSPORT 3-1

HAVE FUN TURKS!!!!

:gr: :gr: :gr: :gr: :gr:

[manos]

This discussion on the Olympiacos-Panathinaikos rivalry won't be complete without mentioning the following footballers:

Dellikaris-he moved from Olympiacos to PAO in the seventies while he was considered the most iconic player of Olympiacos. After he went to PAO he realised he didn't want to play for them and quited football. Nowadays he works for one of the Olympiacos sports newspapers (Protathlitis).

Antoniadis-he moved from PAO to Olympiacos in the late seventies while he was top scorer of PAO and the greek championship for many years. Not a very gifted player he did't do well in Olympiacos. He is now the president of the greek footballers association.

Galakos-he moved form Olympiacos to PAO I think in 1980 while he was the best forward Olympiacos had at the time and that costed a great deal to Olympiacos supporters. He didn't do very well in PAO.

Kurastas-he moved from Olympiacos to PAO I think the same year as Galakos, he was a right back for Olympiacos and played as a central defender in PAO and did very well. He later became the manager of PAO and built one of their best teams. He died a couple of years ago.

Sargkanis-he was probably the best goalkeeper to ever play in greece, he moved from Olympiacos to PAO in the eighties.

Vamvakoulas-one of the most popular of Olympiacos, he played as a left back. He moved to PAO the same year as Sargkanis and played as a sweeper for a few years. He made football history after a defeat from Steaua Bucharest when he argued quite seriously that the game should be played with two referees in the pitch. Most football fans have forgotten all about him but the romanians still remember him.

Apostolakis-he moved from Olympiacos to PAO in the late eighties I think. That caused one of the most troublesome derbies in the history of greek football. He is since last week the football director of PAO

Antoniou-he moved from Panathinakos to Olympiacos for a few weeks in the late eighties. Due to a court decision he went back to PAO.

Kalatzis-he moved from PAO to Olympiacos in the early 90s, nobody missed him in Panathinaikos and nobody notice him in Olympiacos.

Sarabakos-probably the best player to play for PAO, he played as a right wing. He signed a contract with Olympiacos in the early 90s but the move was never completed.

Nikopolidis-the keeper of the Euro squad, he moved from PAO to Olympiacos two years ago and that caused big trouble in Panathinaikos.

Konstantinou-he moved from PAO to Olympiacos this year and PAO fans haven't recovered from that one yet.

Maybe I missed somebody, but the imoortant thing is that one of the most effective ways to wind up the opposition is to get one of their best players and both teams have used it a great deal.

Also to have a clear idea of greek football somebody should know what the following terms mean.

Kabourias

Theios

Thomas

Paragka

Vazeloi

Rizoupoli

Kotes

Gkoumompasinades

Episthmones

Kornedes

Thgani

I am too tired to explain them, I would welcome explanation form the PAO fans in this forum./

[trifilli]

PANATHINAIKOS-FENERBACHE 4-1

OLYMPIAKOS-GALATASARAY 3-0

ANORTHOSIS-TRAMPZONSPORT 3-1

Completely irrelevant, and you forgot, AIGALEO - Genclerbirligi (Turkey) 1:0, 1:1

Turk colours??

The Turks don't own the colour red

My post does NOT say anywhere, any of the above.

I said that red is not a Greek color.

Is it? :gr:

The fact that Turkey, Greece's historically greatest adversary, has those colors in its' flag, makes red, even less Greek.

Where do you see me claiming that red is Turkish or owned by Turkey?

Colors bring emotions to people.

Memories, temperament, taste, are some reasons why people react to the same color in various ways.

red and white stripes look better than the big green monster shirts

My point exactly. It is purely a matter of taste.

For me that statement could not be any further from the truth.

The only osfp uniforms I ever liked, were the all black, all blue, and all white ones, osfp wore, during away CL games.

The red and white stripes are visually repulsive, to me.

PEACE

[Guest Protathlitis7]

trifilli, that is the biggest load of s%$#! I have ever read. You're speaking with an air of expertise on the suvject which you obviously do do not have judging from your defence of your claim

Red was historically THE Greek colour. In Ancient times and then especially in Byzantine times. Blue has only been used as the national colour since revolutionary days

But my guess is that it has NOTHING to do with that, rather that its because its the colour of the masses and of passion. Suggesting it comes from the turkish flag is silly low man given the political climate of when the club was born