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Lazarus

USA 2020 Elections: The Democrats

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Since this topic is about the 2020 Elections: The Democrats...

Thomas Friedman wrote an OpEd in the NYT arguing that Biden shouldn't debate Trump unless the latter makes his tax returns public, as every prez candidate has done in the last 50 years.  Also, that there should be fact checkers, who before the show is over, will point out the fallacies/misstatements/lies said during the debate. NYT article

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On 6/26/2020 at 6:06 PM, Pepito said:

First of all you don't vote in the US. I do. Second, this is not a question about 'the best possible candidate'. We don't live in La-La Land. The players are set, the lines are drawn. The battle is between Trump and Biden. Don't give me the 'Biden is not good enough'. As I said in my very first post addressing your postings. Pick a side. There are two competitors, one battleground. If you are not with one, then you support the other. The rules of the game are as clear as daylight.

Jeez....and all this time I thought you were Mexican.
As long as people continue to apply "reality tv" mentality to such important issues there will never be any change. If enough people don't pick sides then a 3rd option (4th and even 5th) will have to materialize, but as long as the same old tired narrative of "If you are not with one, then you support the other" continues then the soap opera will continue ad nauseam....and that's how Trump ended up as president.

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^^^^

Mexicans, Greeks, et al, vote if they're citizens...  But, unfortunately there is electoral fraud (I didn't say voter fraud), since it's the policy of the Republican party to prevent people and groups from voting, and they draw districts in such a way as to favor their party. That's why you see their party gets more seats in states like Wisconsin, N. Carolina, etc, even though it gets fewer votes than the Dem party.

As to picking a side, wouldn't you say the rules determine how the game is played?

Of course, so the next president WILL BE either a Dem or a Repub--Biden or Trump. If they die before the election, their parties will replace them with someone else. Voting for another candidate, hoping for a change, it's a wasted effort in my opinion. And, it's stupid today, if I may add, because these two are so different that there's a clear choice; and no one should sit this out.

By the way, have you thought why there have been 2 major parties/coalitions in American politics since the first election?

The system favors 2 major parties, plus, in my opinion, tradition plays a role...

 

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On 7/11/2020 at 4:46 PM, Epicurus said:

By the way, have you thought why there have been 2 major parties/coalitions in American politics since the first election?

Yes I have...it's simply a matter of facilitating control regardless of the outcome. That's why all the big time lobbyists cultivate influence over both parties.

 

On 7/11/2020 at 4:46 PM, Epicurus said:

As to picking a side, wouldn't you say the rules determine how the game is played?

Rules are changed in any game when it is deemed necessary i.e. when there is a need to level the playing field, to make the game fairer or more appealing.....other times they are changed to favor the financially stronger teams which usually leads to corruption and takes away the ability of the financially lesser teams to compete.

 

On 7/11/2020 at 4:46 PM, Epicurus said:

Voting for another candidate, hoping for a change, it's a wasted effort in my opinion. And, it's stupid today, if I may add, because these two are so different that there's a clear choice; and no one should sit this out.

I am honestly sorry you feel that way because change has to start somewhere otherwise we are simply spinning our tires....and while there is a truth in regards to the clear differences between the 2 parties, I would argue that they are the flipped sides of the same coin. This of course is simply my opinion as an outsider.

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Posted (edited)

^^^

I want rainbows and butterflies, and all people to live in harmony.  But, the reality is different. And, if you don't truly understand reality, including how the game is played, you can't be a force for change. At least for change that leads to positive outcomes.

ps. same coin, but it's like, heads you live, tails you die... (I hope you see the difference)

Edited by Epicurus
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For you (and most people in the western world, myself included) reality is a matter of convenience, an excuse for accepting and not having to make too strenuous an effort to effect and affect change and just go with the flow. So we sit in our comfy armchairs and philosophize....some say things have always been this way so what can you do, others call for changes, others rewrite past events to suit their immediate needs and justify themselves, etc. Reality changes as you shift from one perspective to another so I don't know that reality nowadays has anything to do with elections in the US otherwise there would be realistic options available.

Last elections  : Trump vs Hillary - there were no realistic options so you ended up with Trump simply as a [email protected](# you from the american people to the Dems. The rest of the world has had to live with this just as much as the US population and while it has been a barrel of laughs and highly entertaining I don't think the US or the rest of the world can handle another 4 yrs of Trump. The american people have shown they don't mind going with the greater of 2 evils if they feel cornered so the "vote for me or else" strategy has already proven to be a failure.

pps. here is the reality: same coin ....heads or tails we all die in the end

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On 7/14/2020 at 5:29 PM, AchillesHeel said:

For you (and most people in the western world, myself included) reality is a matter of convenience, an excuse for accepting and not having to make too strenuous an effort to effect and affect change and just go with the flow. ...

pps. here is the reality: same coin ....heads or tails we all die in the end

1. "in the western world" reality is a matter of convenience?! Whatever this means...    But, the reality remains: the facts, some of which are rules made by humans, like the US constitution, and 50-state electoral systems. I have marched in protest, voted & been politically active, talked to people, and have tried to understand how the system works in order to change it for the better. I'm also old enough to realize that the perfect cannot be the enemy of the practical. Was the Emancipation a positive step? Of course, even though it took another 100 years to reverse some of the most cruel laws/ social norms--and we still have much to do. Those who oversimplify tend to be ignoramuses in my opinion. In real terms, I could see you saying Hitler/Stalin being two sides of same coin, but HRC/DJT?!  Actually I'm appalled by such ridiculously ignorant statement. The country would be going in a different direction, in which science, competence, education, environment, economics (taxes and social safety net) health, immigration, etc, etc.would have been addressed in a very different manner by  HRC than the current moron-in-charge has taken us into.  Apparently those issues don't matter to you!?!

2. Another reality: the laws of nature, which include dying. Great. So, go ahead and die after you read this. If you continue to live, then you disagree with yourself...  that even though you will die one day, you now want to continue to experience life. And, I'm betting you care which side of the coin comes up... So, savor your days alive!

Cheers.

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You do realize that the rest of the world views the US as some schizophrenic mental patient all thanks to the game being played by both sides. If the "practical" doesn't strive for the general betterment then what does it serve? To keep things going as is, of course.  

16 hours ago, Epicurus said:

The country would be going in a different direction, in which science, competence, education, environment, economics (taxes and social safety net) health, immigration, etc, etc.would have been addressed in a very different manner by  HRC than the current moron-in-charge has taken us into.  Apparently those issues don't matter to you!?!

They matter to me but apparently not to the american public since they opted for Donny.

16 hours ago, Epicurus said:

2. Another reality: the laws of nature, which include dying. Great. So, go ahead and die after you read this. If you continue to live, then you disagree with yourself...  that even though you will die one day, you now want to continue to experience life. And, I'm betting you care which side of the coin comes up... So, savor your days alive!

Listen Pepito, you're the one who stated that it's heads you live, tails you die, not me and stating that if I continue to live afterwards I am disagreeing with myself? That's oversimplification in its highest form and you seem to think once again that twisting words around will somehow win your argument....that it's this way or that...black or white. Personally I don't wish death on you, nor will I call you an ignoramus for having a different view than my own.

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5 hours ago, AchillesHeel said:

Listen Pepito, you're the one who stated that it's heads you live, tails you die, not me and stating that if I continue to live afterwards I am disagreeing with myself?

Please do not call my name in vain!

Seriously, maybe you should re-evaluate things when more than one individuals points out the same fallacy in your arguments. Go back to the drawing board.

22 hours ago, Epicurus said:

Those who oversimplify tend to be ignoramuses in my opinion.

I agree with this statement. On the other hand though, it's tough for all of us to see through confirmation bias.  

I think this topic is getting out of hand - again. 

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Yeah ok....you agree with yourself. I like discussion and enjoy exchanging ideas, especially with opposing views but when someone is so utterly convinced they are right and does not see that for every point of view there are a myriad of different opinions that can be debated then it's just no fun.  I do agree it's getting out of hand so I'll bow out    :whistling:

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, AchillesHeel said:

I like discussion and enjoy exchanging ideas, especially with opposing views but when someone is so utterly convinced they are right and does not see that for every point of view there are a myriad of different opinions that can be debated then it's just no fun.

Just listen to yourself! Contradicting yourself once again, all in one sentence.

💬

Back on the topic and Democrats,  civil rights legend Rep. John Lewis dead at 80. Lewis was one of the "Big Six" civil rights leaders, which included Martin Luther King Jr, and helped organize the historic 1963 March on Washington. As a congressman he was a Georgia Democrat, and represented an area which covered most of its capital Atlanta.

May his soul rest in peace. Dios lo tenga en su gloria

 

Edited by Pepito

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Posted (edited)

On the subject (oh, my! what a risky move talking about the topic at hand) changing demographics and a backlash to Trump has reshaped the Arizona's politics. Could Arizona really turn Democratic? (The Guardian) I hope so. It seems that states voted for Republicans in previous years will be up for grabs in these coming elections. While Democrats should be encouraged from the fact that they can fight for electoral votes, they should by no means relax with the idea that they might become the favorite party if this mishandling from the current incompetent government continues.

One of the bigger questions are: Can the voters of Kentucky award the Senate seat to Democrats and terminate Mitch (the Turtle) McConnell?

 

Edited by Pepito

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***Guys stay on topic please, do not make things personal.***

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Mitch ain't getting bumped from his spot. I wonder if this re-alignment of the political spectrum, where moderate republicans essentially permanently join up with the Dems, is built to last. Dems for sure will win the popular vote.

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On 7/24/2020 at 4:38 AM, Soprano76 said:

Mitch ain't getting bumped from his spot.

FiveThirtyEight has recent polls that confirm your point ( McGrath 33% /McConnell 55%). In terms of Republicans joining the Biden camp, I think that is a short term adjustment with the sole purpose of rescuing the Republican Party from the further destruction of Trumpism. According to the LA Times "No president in modern history has faced such organized opposition to his reelection by members of his own party." 

From The Lincoln Project (an American political action committee formed in late 2019 by several prominent Republicans and former Republicans)

 

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Posted (edited)
On 7/24/2020 at 4:38 AM, Soprano76 said:

I wonder if this re-alignment of the political spectrum, where moderate republicans essentially permanently join up with the Dems, is built to last.

@Soprano76 An article on CNN discusses this very same question: How the Lincoln Project's brutal anti-Trump ads could remake US politics

Once all is said and done, Republicans will go back to being Republicans is they manage to save the party from Trump. If Trump gets re-elected -for what ever reason - the Republican party is no more.

Democrats will take what ever they can get.

Edited by Pepito

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9 hours ago, Pepito said:

If Trump gets re-elected -for what ever reason - the Republican party is no more.

It is very rare to see an incumbent lose, but it has happened a handful of times, we will see. I don't think sleepy Joe can beat him, I hope he does but I just don't see it. I wish the dems could bring in some new blood, someone young, in the future I hope we could see them nominate someone like AOC.

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On 7/25/2020 at 11:33 PM, Tzatziki said:

 

 someone like AOC.

ouuuuuuch!

 

On 7/25/2020 at 9:54 AM, Pepito said:

FiveThirtyEight has recent polls that confirm your point ( McGrath 33% /McConnell 55%). In terms of Republicans joining the Biden camp, I think that is a short term adjustment with the sole purpose of rescuing the Republican Party from the further destruction of Trumpism. According to the LA Times "No president in modern history has faced such organized opposition to his reelection by members of his own party." 

From The Lincoln Project (an American political action committee formed in late 2019 by several prominent Republicans and former Republicans)

 

for every LP's there are a thousand Q's.

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, tantra129 said:

for every LP's there are a thousand Q's.

 

On the actual topic we are discussing, Biden said after his speech in Wilmington on Tuesday that he will choose his vice presidential running mate next week. Who would be a good running mate for Biden? My choice would be Susan Rice followed by Val Demings. I think Susan Rice is the most qualified but might the most polarizing figure. I would like Val Demings as a choice. Politico has a list featuring possible candidates.

Edited by Tzatziki

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Topic locked. For now. There seems to be a problem getting it under control, so we'll change course and policies.

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