Panathinaikos-Kavala

[PAO_OR_DEATH]

its not over until the overweight woman sings, i can tell u now, i had a dream last night (before the game in my time) and a crowd of over 350,000 cramed into oaka to watch PAO demoralise osfp 4-0 giving us a 6 point lead on them in the league so, maybe this was meant to happen, we'll beat paok, and we'll beat osfp it's simply meant to happen

[warzycha]

Sooner or later a loss had to come. In some ways it can be a positive as this may help them focus on PAOK. It is going to be tough against the meanest defence in Greece but not impossible. 3 points though is crucial.

Kavala deserve some credit as they have given all the top teams some real problems and for Greek football it is great to see a smaller team do well. They have bought well and created a competitive team. Just a shame they are inconsistent against smaller teams.

Lets hope teams like Ergotelis (this week) and Iraklis can rise to occasion and pressure Olympiakos into draws or losses before the big one of the season.

[drakos13]

its not over until the overweight woman sings, i can tell u now, i had a dream last night (before the game in my time) and a crowd of over 350,000 cramed into oaka to watch PAO demoralise osfp 4-0 giving us a 6 point lead on them in the league so, maybe this was meant to happen, we'll beat paok, and we'll beat osfp it's simply meant to happen

were not beating Aris, AEK or Kavala. 3 teams I expect to beat as were much much better.

Theres nothing positive about any of those results. They've been dissapointing and this winter we've been very poor so far. AEL win aside were losing our edge.

Theres officially no more room for error. We wasted +8 lead before we hit mid February.

I dont know whats "meant" to happen. I do know we have a knack for Greek tragedy for the last decade.

[GreenTitus]

It's happened so many times that, if I weren't against gambling, I 'd put all my money on PAO dropping points at home without Gilberto in the lineup. Simple as that.

[adonis]

http://www.sportdog.gr/v3/article.aspx?id=123525

and heres the article to back you GreenTitus :P

[cyberfish]

yeah, this has become our joke here at Phantis. We struggle without Silva. We have won this season without him but it hasn't been easy. The guy is pushing 33 (close to 34) and can run 90 minutes like no other. I can't believe fans talk as if it's natural that Karagounis and Katsouranis and Ninis can't run for 90 minutes.

I marveled a few games ago against Panthrakikos watching him dart forward from defense when he realized there was a big opening ahead. He ran so fast with the ball the rest of our team had a hard time catching up. It was late in the game and we were ahead by two already.

What a class player. I like the way he plays and I like his demeanor. He has become one of my all-time favorites.

I am calming down from the Kavala debacle. Kudos to the little team, playing with patience, smarts, and took more than what they probably dreamed of. I am concerned that our player conditioning seems to be deteriorating. That's one of the prices you pay by changing coaching staff mid-season. Establishing the wrong conditioning regime by a new coach can throw off a player's body big time. I noticed Katsourani running as if he was shuffling his feet - an indication to me, the non expert, that his muscles might be too tight. It could be from recent practice being too harsh. If he was just winded and out of power he would be running normally and in a "shaky" kind of style. Not sure what's going on.

I also don't like the way we attack with so much anarchy. I know fans think it's exciting (and it is when we win) but it can lead to games like this one against Kavala when multiple players find themselves out of position or too many exercise their improvisational rights at the same time (deciding it's someone else's job to run back to cover. Just about everyone went out of their way to do something extra and our players looked very casual, as if all the publicity has gone to their head.

I noted marked improvement in work rate after Kavala scored but it was late and it translated in mostly hurried and forced attempts to get the ball to the forwards with one or two passes. What happened to turning the ball around from left to right with patience? That's why most fans and reporters talk about our final pass not finding green shirts in the box. They were all forced and hurried, as if we are in competition to send the ball in the box with the least amount of passes preceding.

I also don't like how we play with no depth. Most everyone talks about "width" and how it helps break down a defense. Well, we didn't have any width because Leto and Salpi were merging inward constantly and that left Vintra and Spyropoulo to provide the width. Kavala's plan was not to over-react to their game. Just send one defender to be of bother and they bet that their crosses won't be a problem - and they were right.

But back to depth, everyone seemed to squash in a ten meter zone outside Kavala's box and it was impossible to find space move with or without the ball. That left mostly our CBs and Simao to try to pass the ball forward. Kavala's other plan was not to bother with them either, betting that they could not create enough game to beat them. The were right.

Kavala's coach took our coach's taytothta on this one. After Delmos made his first sub in 28 (seeing the only danger coming from Vintra) by putting in Smolarek and after that we barely had any chances to show for all the running. I didn't seem much discussion in the media about Kavala's first goal. It's almost implied that Kavala parked the bus and scored two on the counter. It's not true. Kavala had control of their half since 30' and began moving the ball around in our half around 55'. There was this period when we could not disposess them to save our lives, and they scored a beautiful goal by opening up our organized defense (well, our midfielders were very disorganized and were jogging).

Back to "depth" though. Fan's like this "push them in their box and bombard them" game, thinking of it as "attacking football", but most fail to see the value of keeping two midfielders deep to hold and distribute the ball from way behind, pulling this way opposing players towards midfield and opening up spaces behind them.

I don't want this to be another debate "this coach vs the last one" (I guess we have to put a disclaimer now days if we want to analyze coaching decisions) but this forum has been the best in terms of quality discussion and we would be fooling ourselves if you blame this one on "luck" too. There is an ominous pattern beginning to develop and I hope our team snaps out of it this week. (added later: after I finished writing this I found this very good analysis of the coaching moves: http://www.sport-fm.gr/article/217742 )

On a positive note, if everything works out the way I hope it does, going from +8 to +3 might not be a bad thing. I am thinking of movies here. You know, the ones where the hero comes through in the end by slaying the dragon himself. Maybe our fate this season is to be the ones who put our adversaries out of their misery and get to be even bigger heroes in the end.

[Euro2004]

yeah, this has become our joke here at Phantis. We struggle without Silva. We have won this season without him but it hasn't been easy. The guy is pushing 33 (close to 34) and can run 90 minutes like no other. I can't believe fans talk as if it's natural that Karagounis and Katsouranis and Ninis can't run for 90 minutes.

I marveled a few games ago against Panthrakikos watching him dart forward from defense when he realized there was a big opening ahead. He ran so fast with the ball the rest of our team had a hard time catching up. It was late in the game and we were ahead by two already.

What a class player. I like the way he plays and I like his demeanor. He has become one of my all-time favorites.

Gilberto is certainly essential to our team, and this is further magnified by the fact that we're majorly limited in central midfield without him.

Simao is a good ball winner and one for the future but his ball distribution is poor.

Karagounis has never been good in central midfield unless in a 3 because he's too slow on the turn and he can't track runners. That's why I like him coming in from the left or behind the front man. I think i've also read you mention this cyber, right?

Katsouranis is a player I've had enough of. I actually don't want him in the team. He doesn't have the hunger anymore. I watched Greece's Euro 2004 games the other day (i was watching a world cup programme before it and it got me excited so i had to get my DVD collection out! :P). I urge anyone that has copies of those games to go back and watch them and see how much Katsouranis runs. He had so much hunger. Now he doesn't move! That is inexcusable for a central midfielder.

I am concerned that our player conditioning seems to be deteriorating. That's one of the prices you pay by changing coaching staff mid-season. Establishing the wrong conditioning regime by a new coach can throw off a player's body big time. I noticed Katsourani running as if he was shuffling his feet - an indication to me, the non expert, that his muscles might be too tight. It could be from recent practice being too harsh. If he was just winded and out of power he would be running normally and in a "shaky" kind of style. Not sure what's going on.

It was only a matter of time before this happened and something I feared tremendously. Ten Cate had come to us from the Premiership, a league where conditioning is one of the most fundamental facets of the game. I am also of this philosophy, it's importance cannot be overestimated. With all due respect to Nioblias his experience is limited to Greek football, a league where the conditioning of athletes has never been a top priority. As a result, the decline in fitness and tempo was inevitable. I do disagree about Katsouranis though, his laziness was there way before Nioblias. It was there for the last 2 years for Benfica.

I also don't like the way we attack with so much anarchy. I know fans think it's exciting (and it is when we win) but it can lead to games like this one against Kavala when multiple players find themselves out of position or too many exercise their improvisational rights at the same time (deciding it's someone else's job to run back to cover. Just about everyone went out of their way to do something extra and our players looked very casual, as if all the publicity has gone to their head.

Totally right. This is where the inexperience of Nioblias and the absence of a leader like Gilberto really tells. Our backline is poor, but most of our problems start from midfield. Because of that we're not just poor in defence, but we're poor as a team defensively. There's no balance, no defensive unity. I hate to say it, but we're still a long way off what I want to see from our team. A longgggg way off.

I noted marked improvement in work rate after Kavala scored but it was late and it translated in mostly hurried and forced attempts to get the ball to the forwards with one or two passes. What happened to turning the ball around from left to right with patience? That's why most fans and reporters talk about our final pass not finding green shirts in the box. They were all forced and hurried, as if we are in competition to send the ball in the box with the least amount of passes preceding.

Geia sou re Cyber! :tup: Like I said earlier, the Brit in me likes a high tempo. But it has to be controlled. As you say, our attacks are anarchic. Always direct balls towards Cisse and hope for the best. It's giving me an ulcer just talking about it!

I also don't like how we play with no depth. Most everyone talks about "width" and how it helps break down a defense. Well, we didn't have any width because Leto and Salpi were merging inward constantly and that left Vintra and Spyropoulo to provide the width.

Cyber I think I'm falling in love with you! I was talking about everything you're mentioning with my friends yesterday :tup:

Just to add a couple of things, when Ten Cate was in charge the criticism was "Leto and Salpi play too far wide" and Nioblias said he'd bring the wide players closer to Cisse. Fine, but for that to happen you have to compensate in defensive midfield. If we have 3 forward plus our full backs (only one should be up at any one time) then we should have at least 2 midfielders holding (plus the 3 defenders) hence 5 behind the ball and one attacking central-midfielder who has to judge when to go and when to hold. So 5 forward and 5 back at all times, inter-changing but always covering eachother. We don't do this (under either manager) and so we're vulnerable to counter attacks.

Many people think that the answer to filling limitations is simply to throw players in that position. We're struggling to score? "Throw on a striker and take off a holding midfielder". Yeah have less of the ball as a result! Everything on the pitch is linked. It's all about a balance.

On a positive note, if everything works out the way I hope it does, going from +8 to +3 might not be a bad thing. I am thinking of movies here. You know, the ones where the hero comes through in the end by slaying the dragon himself. Maybe our fate this season is to be the ones who put our adversaries out of their misery and get to be even bigger heroes in the end.

Unfortunately I have a feeling this is a film noir where there is no happy ending. Ten Cate should never have gone mid-season. It's as simple as that. The reason the Greek players were happy to see him come is because HTC didn't take crap and demanded wrok-rate. Now players like Katsouranis can stroll around and live the easy life. By the end of the season we'll be blaming referees again! :tdown:

Hey Cyber, I'm starting my 2nd coaching badge in the summer. Within 3 years I'm hoping to be a fully credited FA coach. If that happens and I happen to get a job I'm bringing you with me as my no.2... actually scrap that idea, you can be the manager and i'll be your number 2. That way if it doesn't work out you can get the sack and I'll stay on in a behind-the-scenes coaching capacity! :P

[pao123]

i went skiing this weekend and missed the match..luckily because i would have probably punched the wall...if we let this result effect our season like we have in the past, then the title is lost..if we show resolve and take every game one step at a time, we will win the title...dont forget oly have to play aris in the last match day..anything can happen..this next game vs paok will be extremely important for us..we need a good result this game to get over a big hurdle..i hop the team comes together and stays glued and we overcome this small hump...either way, i rather be +3 up then -1 down..this needs to be our only slip-up...theres a long road till the end so we shouldnt be saying 'the title is lost' we are still in first and are still so far the best team in the league...

nioplias needs to start ninis from now on..salpi is not doing it these last couple games for me...you can also see the disorganization in defense when gilberto is not there to hold the team together...when simao plays he does well, but there is a noteble absencse when gilberto is not on the pitch...the fans need to stick with the team now MORE THAN EVER...

i have a bad feeling about paok next week but hopefully we bring our A game and show our true quality...

[cyberfish]

Ha ha Euro. I love you too man!

It's good to see fans who enjoy the fine points of the game. As for the coaching gig, sorry man, I already have the job of my childhood dreams and I would not change it for anything in the world. May I recommend Athinaios as the football manager? Good luck and I will be your biggest fan. -- I am off to work now. You made my day.

PS. Imagine being level on points and beating Olympiakos by 4. Everything will be forgotten and the tactical deficiencies will be assets

[pao123]

http://www.sentragoal.gr/article.asp?catid...2&pubid=7280213

if domazos has hope then so do i :D

[GreenTitus]

Oh please, no more Domazos, I can't stand the guy. No one seriously doubts his quality on the pitch but off it he lost my respect a long time ago.

[cyberfish]

I agree with you Titus about Domazos.

I fired up Excel today and did a few "what if" exersices to see what we need to still win this title that everyone is so afraid we are going to lose.

Well, keeping the scenario on a realistic level, and assuming all three teams will win all other games, Panathinaikos will end the season in first place simply by drawing in their two games at PAOK and against Olympiakos.

If Panathinaikos beats both PAOK and Olympiakos the final table is easy to imagine:

Panathinaikos 76, Olympiakos 70, PAOK 68

If Panathinaikos ties both PAOK and Olympiakos the final table will show:

Panathinaikos 74, Olympiakos 71, PAOK 69

If Panathinaikos loses at PAOK and beats Olympiakos then the final table will be:

Panathinaikos 73, PAOK 71, Olympiakos 70,

If Panathinaikos loses at PAOK and draws Olympiakos the final table will show:

Olympiakos 71, Panathinaikos 71, PAOK 71

This last scenario would be interesting because Olympiakos beat PAOK 1-2 in touba while PAOK beat Olympiakos 0-1 in Pireas (all the missed chances by PAOK come back to haunt them) so Olympiakos has the upper hand. Olympiakos also beat PAO at home and drew away an so they have the upper hand again.

It goes without saying that if Panathinaikos loses both their derbies they will drop to third place.

For now, we still have the upper hand being 3 points above second place. No need to let panic destroy our season. Besides the two derbies, we should be able to win all the other contests. Sure we can lose more points somewhere else, but so can our rivals.

I still think we'll be remembering the defeat to Kavala as a mere black mark on an otherwise fine, and winning, season. Chins up.

[athinaios]

Had we been down by whatever points and last week we won while others lost so we now (after trailing) jumped 3 points ahead.... what would be the story today??? ;)

Yes, I still think we have the upper hand. We control our future. The other 2 must win more than we have to. And, they have to play us too. They can't be satisfied with a tie either.

This Kavala game was horrible. But that's how we used to play all along in previous seasons. This season I've seen a different PAO. We dropped too many points in the last few games, but we saw the team played better than their opponents. So, I know we have it in us to beat both PAOK and gavroi.

The good thing about the PAOK game is that they will have to open up and try to beat us. We have much better chances when teams don't play 11 back.

[pao123]

paok will drop points..they still have aris, aek and kavala, the giant killer of the season...and not to mention us...

oly has us at oaka, aris and a tough match away at iraklis..whom they tied in karaiskaki last round...

anything can happen..we are in the race and in a good position..despite our little drop in form and olys pick up in psychology neither team have an advantage over us as we have the best roster and have been playing the best football in greece this year...

[js1000]

Today Olympiakos won the league

i hope you didn't lose any money mate

[cyberfish]

ha ha, these threads are great to see how all speculation is dwarfed by reality in the end. Sometimes our logic fails, and sometimes our emotions get the best of us. But if we were afraid of making errors we would never commit anything to writing.