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Macedonia Name Dispute

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Since the old Macedonia topic has disappeared I started this topic to continue the discussion on the subject.

 

 

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In the the past weeks two large protests were held in Greece to bring attention to the Macedonia name dispute between Greece and FYROM.

The first one was on January 21, 2018 in Thessaloniki. Police claims that it was attended by 90,000 protesters although others place the numbers much higher ( up to 400,000)

Thessaloniki_2018-01-21.jpg.856ca3e94a91a0457fee9cdc4c2a84c5.jpg

The second protest was held on Sunday at Syndagma Square in Athens. Police estimates say it was attended by 140,000 while there are claims that it was attended by 1.5 milion people.

Athens_2018-02-04.thumb.jpg.09ff4ca6a6b3d142c7271e2046c4ffe2.jpg

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Thanks i remember we had a thread but it dissapeared.

Well the FYROM finally have a government that is not as fanatical as the one before and they are willing to compromise.  I understand in Greece the name is non negotiable but i really dont see a problem with a compound name especially New or Nova Makedonija .   The name separates them from ancient Macedonia and with time i feel they will stop the nonsense with Alexander the Great.  Also i feel with time they will be called New Macedonians instead of Macedonians by westerners and europeans.  Because i follow the forums of fanatical Macedo Slavs of Australia and Canada i can tell you that a compound name is a victory for us . Well we shall wait and see what happens in the months ahead.

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The name ... what's in a name ?  My take, I wouldn't even give them a compound name.  Not after the way they've behaved since 1992.  The only name I would give is "Makedonski" spelt and pronounced exactly like that.  That is their name and they can have it.

You know, I think the problem has always been the attempt to rewrite their history that is the essence of the problem.  The name dispute is just a manifestation of this.  If the ... Makedonski had no historical claims to Macedonia or Greece, they probably would've got the name "Macedonia" back in 1992.  I don't think anyone in Greece would've minded.  But once they began laying claim to Greek History they crossed a line and now it's too far gone.  I don't even know how this can be resolved.

The bizarre thing is this obsession with rewriting history.  I mean, it's actually embarrassing.  Making claims on things that existed 1000 years before you did ?  A ... Makedonski, if asked the question "Are you a descendant of the Ancient Greek Macedonians ?" should laugh and say "Of course not you idiot".  But instead, they either believe it, or push for it regardless.  It's actually quite bizarre.

And why is there this sudden push to resolve the name all of a sudden ?  Is Greece being pressured in some way ?  Or is this just a pet project of Tsipras or Syriza ?

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Appropriation of our history aside, what caused the name issue to be relevant again all of a sudden, what did I miss? Did they get a new Gov that offered to make a compromise out of the blue? Because I remember as a child there were protests but for 90% of the world now they are known as Macedonia already, I thought the debate or issue about their name was settled for many years now....boreite na me fotisete mipos?

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I wouldn't settle for a geographic qualifier that includes the name Macedonia, people will still call them Macedonians, and they will continue to use that name as leverage for propaganda, I hate to say it but I think this is a battle we have lost, nobody cares about history, ultimately history is written by the winners and the Greek governments p1ss poor handling of this situation has led to the current situation, it horrifies me how many people I know who have very limited knowledge of this issue who maintain that we are bullies and being petty over a name, the skop propaganda machine have consistently used dumbed down arguments to their advantage.

the battle has also been lost in the diaspora as well, walk around Melbourne and Toronto everyone calls them Macedonians, they have this underdog type status that makes people sympathise with them. Makes me sick to be honest,

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11 hours ago, Tzatziki said:

what caused the name issue to be relevant again all of a sudden, what did I miss? Did they get a new Gov that offered to make a compromise out of the blue?

Yes new government.  Gruevski is gone and SDSM are now in charge .  Zoran Zaev is the name of the new leader.   They want to get into EU and NATO.    A poll in FYROM said 60% are willing to compromise name just to get into those clubs.

Also, as of Feb 6th they have changed the name of the airport in Skopje from Alexander the Great to Skopje International and the main highway which was also called Alexander the Great has been changed to the Friendship highway.

I have heard talk of them also wanting to take the statue down.  So this government is how can i say 'normal'  .  Of course to the fanatic Slavs of Canada and Australia they are traitors.

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14 hours ago, Tzatziki said:

what caused the name issue to be relevant again all of a sudden, what did I miss? 

I believe it's the US pushing the issue so FYROM can be admitted to NATO. I believe there are plans to build military bases on their territory.

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I don't think Skopje will settle without "Macedonia" in the name. From the European and US perspective Skopje has taken positive steps for a resolution and Greece appears unreasonable.  The name "Macedonia" has been almost universally accepted for many years now. It doesn't mean Greece has to agree to it, or to the new Skopje concessions, but if Greece is left alone on this, the case will be lost...  or, until there will be a re-drawing of borders and different countries.

An acceptable (meaning: practical) solution could be "Slavic Macedonia" ?  This is descriptive of ethnicity + geography.  Geographically Macedonia is in multiple countries, so by attaching a ethnic description to the name may be the solution. This acknowledges that Skopje is Slavic, not Greek. 

I'm saying all this without the knowledge in current backroom negotiations and interests at play. It could be that if Skopje must enter NATO and the EU, it may compromise further. But, what I know is that Skopje is known as Macedonia in the world right now. The longer it stays so, the stronger the meme.

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What happens if we were to continue with a tough stance and Not accept that Skopje use Macedonia anyway whatsoever?

Or better yet how should we handle this negotiation process with Skopje?

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I believe for starters that we need to educate the world more about the history of Macedonia, Alexander the Great..etc

through Museums in Thessaloniki and throughout Greece, Movies, courses in Universities, books..etc. We cannot take

this lightly. We need the Diaspora to help in promoting the historical facts around the world, maybe have historians

speak on the big news channels like Fox, CNN...etc. We have to fight to gain favor with public opinion, because what I see

we are doing absolutely nothing. Many people out there in the world are clueless and need to be educated.

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The idea of educating the world is nice in theory.  I say in theory because the reality is when you talk to people about this what 99.99% hear is “blah blah ... blah blah blah ... blah blah”.  They tune out.  To explain it properly, doesn’t take long, but people tune out.  I’ve seen this many times.  I’m sure many of us have also.  It’s just the way it is.

Now it could be said we are all at fault for not being better orators and for failing to convince the unwashed masses of the reality but that would be harsh.  I think the simple truth is that outside of Greece and FYROM no one really cares.

The U.S. would like the issue resolved so they can get another member into the NATO club.  Likewise the EU would like another member.  They could not give a toss about what the actual final name is.  I’m sure there are some diplomats and parliamentarians that do have an understanding of the historical truth but I suspect they are in the minority.  If it were not so, there would be much more pressure on FYROM.

Having said that, I don’t see any reason why Greece should even be negotiating.  We have NOTHING to gain by resolving the dispute.  It’s FYROM that has much to gain.

Greece should simply argue that over the last 25 or so years FYROM has shown themselves to have acted in bad faith.  It should be fairly easy to gather evidence showing how FYROM has made false historical claims including teaching this in their education system.  As such Greece has no interest whatsoever in dealing with an untrustworthy neighbour.  Further to that, even if they say they will stop this behaviour, what is to stop them reverting back after they get what they want ?

Greece should simply set their terms and leave it that.  If by some miracle FYROM accepted that they can never ever again make false historical claims, then at that point we can sit down and work on the name.  Further to that if a Gruevski type ever got into power and tried to start up again, it should be met with immediate and harsh economic sanctions.  I don’t see any other way to solve this issue and I don’t see any reason why Greece should settle for anything less.

Edited by Bananas

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