as5664 Posted October 21, 2009 Share Posted October 21, 2009 I agree with Thryl that it is not Avraam's fault that we are not qualifying. Honestly, I don't think its the players' fault either. The ones who have talent have been putting playing consistently well; Torosidis, Gekas, Samaras, Spyropoulos, Seitaridis, just to name a few. The key here is that mistakes are being made by players here and there, costing us goals and ultimately points. I don't think these mistakes are a lack of professionalism, but a lack of ability. Otto's job as manager is to recognize our weaknesses and mistakes and correct them. Unfortunately, he does neither. We only see drastic changes in the team when there is a major outrcy by the media and EPO. Yes, we never lose points directly because of players like Charisteas, but his inability to control, assist, or score is a major liablity; same goes for Salpingidis and Amanatidis. Still, he starts in practically EVERY match. Notice most of the goals against us are via counter-attack and not the result of an offensive barrage. A common trend is our strikers up front losing the ball and allowing the other team to counter attack when we have only 1 defender and a sweeper. It's not Avraam's fault..it's Otto's. We lost points in Moldova (a perfect example) because we missed too many easy chances at scoring goals; Amanatidis, Salpingidis, and Charisteas are ineffective strikers (and more ineffective considering they are playing out of their natural positions). The score should have ended 3-1 not 1-1. I think we are probably the only team in Europe who have players like Salp and Amanatidis with so many caps but only 1 goal a piece. Otto needs to select players based on their ability, not how well they take orders and cooperate with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellene Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Anyone know when the EPO will announce where first leg will be played, whether its Athens or Crete? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andrew_g Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 Look when I saw the horrible game of Avraam in the first swiss game, I wanted to cry for him. I knew how he must have felt like the goat. I saw the other games he played and he seemed spaced out. He plays better for Oly and I don't think he's some evil guy who does not give a damn. I think the pressure of the national team perhaps is too much for him. Then after I saw the rest of the games he played, I realized he has no business being on the national team. He has given the ball up and many times and has played like the 12th man for the other team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangas21 Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 u win as a team, u lose as a team....but there are blunders (like amanitidis, haristeas, gekas missing golden chances) which are expected in soccer AND then there is a guy literally watching the play develop right in fornt of his eyes, waiting for about three seconds before he reacts and then after the opposing player is aready running full speed and two steps past him, he decides "oh s%$#! i better start running and try the to catch this guy and defend" THAT is not expected and cannot be tolerated....if it is then there are forces working on the NT waaaaaaay beyond otto's control nobody questions his heart or spirit.....he means well i am sure....the village idoit means well also but would you elect him president? bottom line: he does not belong anywhere near a soccer ball.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrylos Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 nobody questions his heart or spirit.....he means well i am sure....the village idoit means well also but would you elect him president? bottom line: he does not belong anywhere near a soccer ball.... He is among the better Greek central defenders. Saying he doesn't deserve to be anear a ball is harsh. As I said does he deserve to start? Probably not. Kyrgiakos and Papastathopoulos are better. Is there a role for him on this team? Yes. (Maybe a 3rd CD when needed) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangas21 Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 thryl, yes its harsh, but its more to make apoint....araaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam has become the poster child for everyones agnst, and for good reason....but but but i think he symbolizes a symptom of a bigger problem...hear me out.. i cant remember anyone being beat so badly on three seperate plays...i mean the reaction time was like molasses and the gap between him and the opposing player huge....but did he expect help? was he depending on the other guys do pick up the player he ended chasing? i dont know...but if that is true then what you have goes back to what i said several times in previous posts, namely that the team has no identity, and as a result, does not play with CONFIDENCE.. remember the 04 team? how thay had a swagger, a confidence that showed on the field? did u ever see their defenders beat? everyone was crystla clear on where they needed to be, what they needed to do and trusted their teamtes to cover, which allowed them to be more aggressive and, more oftent han not, win the tackle/ball/exchange to start the counter....remember? i dont see that with this team....at all....there are glimpses sure, and i think the talent is there to play better, not hugely better, but enough to have qualified already at aminimum....so, if avraaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaam was hung out to dry then it speaks to abigge albeit more subtle set of porblems..... so i am trying to be open minded about it, and i never question a guys heart or effort, but for him to have been beat THAT BADLY suggests he may haev expected some help and did not get it.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellene Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 OAKA will be hosting the first Play Off game at 8pm... Announcement by EPO: http://www.contra.gr/Soccer/World/WorldCup...ece/253281.html Good decision I say... :box: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euro2004 Posted October 22, 2009 Share Posted October 22, 2009 OAKA will be hosting the first Play Off game at 8pm... Announcement by EPO: http://www.contra.gr/Soccer/World/WorldCup...ece/253281.html Good decision I say... :box: Terrible decision! The players stated that they prefer Crete so why give them a psychological knock?! It's stupid. OAKA won't get anymore than 40K (and that's hopeful!) making the place look and sound half empty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrylos Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 did u ever see their defenders beat? Yes numerous times.However, they had Dellas cleaning house whenever they did. I don't remember how obvious the blunders were, but as I mentioned earlier, Avraam deserves a spot on the team, but there are two clearly better options than him. It is not his fault. I just hope we win vs Ukraine by a 2-0 score Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plato-ny Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 With Greece's attendance figures for this campaign, Greece wont come close to selling out the Ukraine match. Observe: Here is the attendance standings for Europe (group stage). The figures are official FIFA figures. Bulgaria and Azerbaijan were ahead of Greece as was Israel. Greede was the 3rd lowest amongst 1st/2nd place finishers. 1 England – 79,753 2 France – 61,127 3 Rep. of Ireland – 53,589 4 Scotland – 48,477 5 Germany – 48,069 6 Netherlands – 45,213 7 Russia – 42,020 8 Portugal – 36,433 9 Denmark – 34,042 10 Spain – 32,954 11 Serbia – 32,382 12 Hungary – 30,711 13 Turkey – 30,382 14 Sweden – 29,130 15 Austria – 29,100 16 Italy – 27,291 17 Switzerland – 27,125 18 Belgium – 27,000 19 Finland – 26,195 20 Georgia – 25,550 21 Croatia – 24,957 22 Ukraine – 23,974 23 Bulgaria – 22,432 24 Azerbaijan – 22,046 25 Poland – 20,841 26 Israel – 20,688 27 Norway – 20,091 28 Greece – 19,640 29 Wales – 18,727 30 Belarus – 18,296 31 Kazakhstan – 15,590 32 Slovakia – 15,469 33 Bosnia & Herzegovina – 13,360 34 Northern Ireland – 13,092 35 Romania – 12,461 36 Czech Republic – 12,062 37 Albania – 10,848 38 Slovenia – 9,882 39 Armenia – 9,520 40 Moldova – 8,598 41 FYROM– 8,500 42 Montenegro – 8,184 43 Iceland – 8,063 44 Latvia – 6,960 45 Estonia – 6,406 46 Malta – 5,756 47 Lithuania – 5,210 48 Luxembourg – 4,172 49 Cyprus – 3,878 50 Liechtenstein – 3,665 51 Andorra – 2,666 52 Faroe Islands – 2,053 53 San Marino – 1,683 Greece-Moldova 3-0 Karaiskakis Stadium, Piraeus Attendance: 13,684 Greece-Switzerland 1-2 Karaiskakis Stadium, Piraeus Attendance: 28,810 Greece-Israel 2-1 Pankritio Stadium, Heraklion Attendance: 22,794 Greece-Latvia 5-2 Olympic Stadium, Athens Attendance: 18,981 Greece-Luxembourg 2-1 Olympic Stadium, Athens Attendance: 13,932 Ukraine-Belarus 1-0 Ukraina Stadium, Lviv Attendance: 24,000 Ukraine-Croatia 0-0 Metalist Stadium, Kharkiv Attendance: 38,500 Ukraine-Kazakhstan 2-1 Lobanovsky Dynamo Stadium, Kiev Attendance: 11,500 Ukraine-Andorra 5-0 Lobanovsky Dynamo Stadium, Kiev Attendance: 14,870 Ukraine-England 1-0 Dnipro Arena, Dnipropetrovsk Attendance: 31,000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangas21 Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 "He is among the better Greek central defenders. " what does that say abput greek soccer? no wonder every team wants to play us...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrylos Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Attendance figures are BRUTAL. As far as Avraam goes, I'm not longer discussing this issue. It has been a blast, but I no longer need to express my views. Thanks mangas21 and everyone else. It is nice to have a "disagreement" that doesn't end in yelling, swearing or knife threats :P :P :P :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OFI-mtl Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Attendance figures are BRUTAL. As far as Avraam goes, I'm not longer discussing this issue. It has been a blast, but I no longer need to express my views. Thanks mangas21 and everyone else. It is nice to have a "disagreement" that doesn't end in yelling, swearing or knife threats :P :P :P :P Why is this guy getting so much time. He is nothing but a fringe depth player 4th on CB pecking order.I believe the 1st game we should play in CRETE. I believe we should play as tight as possible I will be happy with a 1-0...the clean sheet is most important. Then we take our chances and pray for the away goal. The Lineup I would like to see. Sifakis Giourkas..Papastathopoulos......Soto (if hurt Moras) ..Spyropoulos Toro....Katsouranis.....Fotakis. ...........Karagounis........ Samaras.....Gekas...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euro2004 Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Kyrgiakos, Papastathopoulos, Moras, & Tavlaridis are all certainly better than Avraam. Seitaridis and Vintra are also better in a central defense position if we're playing 3 defenders at the back. I would also rather have Katsouranis at centre-back if we have numerous injuries. That makes Avraam 8th choice centre-back in my books. As for attendance figures, Azerbaijan has a bigger average attendance and people still want the game at OAKA?! :LOL: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangas21 Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 thryl, i was just getting my switchblade....damn.. of course, no need for anything like that....u learn or discover more from disagreement than form "yes men"..... under the surface, the interesting thing about the avraaaaaaaaaaaam discussion was really not about him but rather his inept play withn the framework of the team...alot of more poignant issues came up like why is he even on the team, (whether u agree or not is not the point) vs, other player who may be more deserving, other deficiencies of the team, players in/outof position, defensive schemes etc.... so although a topic starts on one level, it always has deeper implications in other related areas that affect the discussion peripherally... i know i have picked up lots of things, especially technical aspects of the game, from everyone here on the thread....but in the end we are here because we want teh team to do well, and being freakin greeks we have 18 opinions about everything....so yes its nice to "agree" to "disagree"......... its not about winning a debate, its exploring the view of someone else and being receptive to others opinions about something with which you may disagree... gotta go make aliving..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genome Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Playing at OAKA, that sounds bad, I don't get why they didn't choose another location (Crete, which has shown great fans every time, or any other location) for the game. I hope Sifakis gets to play again, and I want to see Kyrgiakos and Papastathopoulos in central defense, not Avraam. He deserves a place on the team but not as a starter, at least not yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrylos Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Tavlaridis: He is a forgotten man. Why? (this year he is not doing well, but he's been great for so many years) Attendance and home field: I agree! Crete is the better venue, but I would say Karaiskaki is a solid venue as well. vs Ukraine: I agree, clean sheet is a must Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euro2004 Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Tavlaridis: He is a forgotten man. Why? (this year he is not doing well, but he's been great for so many years) Attendance and home field: I agree! Crete is the better venue, but I would say Karaiskaki is a solid venue as well. vs Ukraine: I agree, clean sheet is a must As a venue the Karaiskaki is perfect. Big enough to draw a good sized crowd and intimate enough to make it intimidating. If the attendances were full (like during the qualifiers for the last world cup) it would be a brilliant edra. Unfortunately Athenians don't seem to care about the national team.I was chatting to member of Gate 7 recently (he's in his early twenties, passionate about football and chants til the cows come home. In other words and stadium full of people like him and we'd have an amazing home ground). He was saying that he doesn't go the national team games because they don't play good football and he'd rather save his 15 euros. He went on to say that if they played good football and wasn't bored when watching them he'd go. So I asked him why he used to follow Olympiakos everywhere in Europe (he was at the away game at Werder where Olympiakos had won their first away game in 32 attempts, i.e. in 10 years or whatever it was). He said "well at least at Olympiakos we see good football". So after pressing him abit he admitted that Olympiakos haven't always played great football in the last 10 years in Europe (which let's face it is an understatement!) but simply conceded, "I love Olympiakos, but I only 'care' for the national team". That sums it up for most Athenians. In places like Crete they seem to care more. Becuase of that I don't think we should be considering the "venue" as such, but the location. This is why i've been saying we should opt for Crete or Kleanthis Vikelidis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clover22 Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 You know I think the fans will show up for the Ukraine match because for the real crucial ones they turn out. I just hope they create an atmosphere like they did at the Greece-Russia WC '94 qualifier. That was electric! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genome Posted October 23, 2009 Share Posted October 23, 2009 Yeah that was a stupifying atmosphere ... @ Euro2004 fully agree... Athens and Athenians have gotten enough chances (no offence to anyone here, I consider myself more of an Athenian than a Kefaloniti anyway). I say Crete, which has proven to have a good crow, or perhaps Thessaloniki. Or you know what, let's do it somewhere in Kefalonia :D in one of those 5000-seaters! Argostoli :D! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangas21 Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 euro good cross-examination..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellene Posted October 24, 2009 Share Posted October 24, 2009 Good comments all round, I am convinced though, that the game v Ukraine will be a hot ticket...Greeks will come from outside athens as well... The qualifiers are a different scenario, not that I agree with the greek attitude towards the national team...this game has that extra reason to go...its the big one.. I think 45-50,000 will go easily, if not sold out... I may even be there all the way from Australia..!!! :box: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAO_OR_DEATH Posted October 25, 2009 Share Posted October 25, 2009 i think 5,000 ultras in a random stadium,,,,,thats 99.9% garunteed victory.phudge that match vs russia.......i mean some poor bastard was probably lost at sea but couldnt buy any flares because they'd all been sold to fans hahahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genome Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 i think 5,000 ultras in a random stadium,,,,,thats 99.9% garunteed victory.phudge that match vs russia.......i mean some poor bastard was probably lost at sea but couldnt buy any flares because they'd all been sold to fans hahahahaha :LOL: :tup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euro2004 Posted October 26, 2009 Share Posted October 26, 2009 Good comments all round, I am convinced though, that the game v Ukraine will be a hot ticket...Greeks will come from outside athens as well... The qualifiers are a different scenario, not that I agree with the greek attitude towards the national team...this game has that extra reason to go...its the big one.. I think 45-50,000 will go easily, if not sold out... I may even be there all the way from Australia..!!! :box: I hoping to get a license from work too (I'll be travelling from the UK). We should meet and take PHANTIS banner! :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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