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Guest Protathlitis

That's just politics, not a democracy.

Your post dosent make sense. Galazia_Stratia was strying to point out that its a very sad thing when someone's vote is decided by whether or not a new stadium gets built for the team they support.

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I think if Leofors was worth 25bn, PAO would've just sold it, bought a gipedo, egatastaseis, Pires, Adriano and Ronaldinho... and probably start Mitu coz he marks more B)

25bn DRACHMA!!!!! And who exactly would have paid 25 bn bying Leoforos? What good does a football stadioum does to an investor who is not going to bother with football? :P The only thing PAO could do is trade the thing with the state for another area.... And that is exactly what they will do.... ;)
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Follow the example of Soldier Field in chicago and just have an upper deck built w/o taking down what's already there and add things to modernize it. Hang on to your history, make it better and maybe UEFA will change their mind. For a season find a temporary home,as the renovations go on come back when it's done. A good example to follow.

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Pao needs to do more then just built an upper deck seating b/c he needs to fix on the lightings of the stadio, the draining facility and a lot more s%$#!

leoforos is just too out dated

plus their is no parkin really

and a upper deck seatings at best add an overall wut 26,000 seating stadio i mean its time to let go pao

thank fully for Olympiakos we didn't have this dilemma we solved it buy building over the old stadio to hold the tradition and history it marked

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parking???? really who cares about parking, it is an ATHENS club, if you didnt expect trouble parking, you arent local for sure. There is the metro which is fine for everybody. Lighting i agree, it needs updates, the inside facilities ive never seen, but how uefa can bitch about "adequate official facilities"???? heres what i think rational people call adequate: a room (with roof and door, light), a shower, a locker. i doubt leoforos doesnt have that. i would prefer to have leoforos built on than go build another....

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Leoforos has alot of inside facilities. Basketball courts, swimming pool, gym. Dont know what the press room is like but it isnt that bad. And if lighting is a problem it can be improved.

Parking is a problem though - and if you were to build an upper deck there is no room though. Where would you build an upper deck?

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Ok some inside rumors on the stadium issue...

Apparently Souflias and the government has done a very smart thing!!! They have created all this fuss around the PAO stadium issue and now they have divided PAO in half!!! Therefore they won't hear any protests from the public or from the municipality of Athens while on the other hand PAO supporters will turn their anger against Tzigger... Let me explain....

KAE & Erasitexnhs points:

The other day they all had a meeting.... Gianakopouloi brothers have accepted the area of Goudi and more specifically the Badmington olympic are to be transformed into an 8.000 basketball and volleyball stadium... On top of that they have argued that we are getting this place in order for the PAE to have a bigger area for the build up of the football ground...

The Government:

The government suggested 2 areas in Goudi and 1 in Helliniko for the football stadium.. However they forgot to mention HOW FAR away is the basketball ground from these two available areas in Goudi.... Also they have stated that for comemrcial reasons the Helliniko solution is going to be better and easier due to the fact that the area is much bigger (larger parking, more stores, quicker return on Investment...)

PAE points

PAE feels that the 2 areas in Goudi are quite small for that kind of thing... Also they are thinking about the protests of Goudi residents and the Municipality of Dimo Athineon who wants these areas for Mitropolitiko Parko!!! They are afraid that the construction might start but someday might also get stuck due to these external factors!!! So they are actually thinking about the Hellinico solution...

IMPORTANT QUESTIONS

Why does PAE after all this time is even thinking about Helliniko?

Because the 2 proposed areas at Goudi are too small for the economical exploitation of the place.... Also because they are afraid of the reactions of the residents at Goudi and Bakogianni with her Mitropolitiko Parko bullshit!!!!

On the other hand the elliniko solution is quite cheaper compared to Goudi....

KAE on the other hand implies that the football ground has to be build at GOUDI... However: Does anybody know how much KAE is going to contribute to the building of the football stadium? Because they are going to have a share from the profits of the stores, fast foods etc...

CONCLUSIONS:

From all the above we can see that there are several problems caused due to the incapability of the Government to find a solution.... The government has achieved to divide PAO in two and got their assess out of the problem by saying that "we are waiting for PAE to decide. We have proposed 2 areas in Goudi and 1 in Helliniko". But of course they forgot to mention all the other problems they have created for the investors of PAO... Therefore now we have most of the PAO fans turned agains the PAE (in our last basketball game there were banners against the PAE and Helliniko), we have the KAE look like the good guys (and they are certantly NOT the good guys) and we have the government look like they gave a reciprocal solution similar to the ones they gave at the geys....

PAE has to give an answer by the end of January latest but nobody know what that answer will be... I personally don't even want to hear about Helliniko but I can feel that this problem will get out of hand... Don't be fooled people, the government is 100% to blame....... Anyway I will get back to you with more senarios...

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The stadium issue is something I am not quite aware of. I know of Goudi and of Hellinko been the options and I know the most basic facts.

But why is everyone so against Hellinko? And why is Goudi what everyone wants and how are there two options in Goudi and neither are good enough.

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Helliniko has nothing to do with Athens!!! PAO is an Athenian team and HAS to be based within the borders of the municipality of Athens!!!

The 2 Goudi areas that have been proposed are quite small and the PAE is not willing to invest to something that will take 2 lifetimes in order to bring profit...

Look at kokkaliskaki for example... The place was the roght one, the size for the build up of the stores was good and Kokkalis is making sales worth of 1,000,000 EUR every matchday (excluding the tickets for that matchday!!!).... ;)

And karaiskaki did not even belong to thynos in the first place... ;) But the government managed to find a solution for thrynos streight away!!!!

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drakos:

Parking? It is a very important problem. According to UEFA's rules, the criteria for grounds receiving Champions League approval include "adequate parking". This is one of the bases on which they refused Leoforos a further extension last month and it is a criteria that all clubs in Champions League must take seriously.

Pappou:

Whatever you say about the Giannakopouli brothers they are definitely more PAO than the Vardinnogiannis family. Pavlo and Thanasi are first "opadi" and then businssmen. They have proved this with the way they have run the basketball team (I say this because you point a finger of blame towards the KAE). They often put their own money into the team and have noway got that money returned through the business of KAE. On the other hand, Vardinnogiannis always put the business side first and being a fan comes second. I doubt they have lost any money on PAO. They always get more than they have invested through Champions League. It's simple maths.

I would much rather have Giannakopouloi buy the PAE. I guarantee you that we will see a European trophy at PAO with them because they would bring good rather than adequate players that only go to the quarters of Europe to cover the costs of signings and some extra for the pocket. Also the team will dominate the elliniko protathlima. I say this because I know what strong fans they are and how they will bring the best talents they can. And I am sure that with Pavlo and Thanasi the gipediko problem would be solved alot more in favour of PAO at Goudi than it is now. Do you really think that Tzigger holds more power and influence than the Giannakopouli brothers?

Anyway, I am sure the Vardinnogianides will go where the money is. That's Elliniko. They look at the business first and then the history, origins and all the other sentimental stuff that matter to the real PAO fans.

Edited by Panos13
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please explain the parking thing.... why does the UEFA CL care about parking? if its for officials/teams yes you are right, if its for fans thats an Athens problem. Most People know not to take there car to the stadium, and if they dont, they learn from the first time. Really would you park your car in leoforos alexandras? what if some episodio happens with the cops and the fans? do you want to wait an hour to get out? does dimos athinas really want such traffic in the streets after a match? no, the easy solution is a bus or metro, park it near your station then pay the .45 E and go to the ghpedo.

gia mixanakia its ok, yes, a car no...

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Helliniko has nothing to do with Athens!!! PAO is an Athenian team and HAS to be based within the borders of the municipality of Athens!!!

The 2 Goudi areas that have been proposed are quite small and the PAE is not willing to invest to something that will take 2 lifetimes in order to bring profit...

Look at kokkaliskaki for example... The place was the roght one, the size for the build up of the stores was good and Kokkalis is making sales worth of 1,000,000 EUR every matchday (excluding the tickets for that matchday!!!).... 

And karaiskaki did not even belong to thynos in the first place...  But the government managed to find a solution for thrynos streight away!!!!

From what I understand isnt Goudi like 15-20 minutes away from Leoforos at the moment. Like as you keep going up Leoforos Alexandras. Correct me if Im wrong.

And what about Hellinko? Where is that? How far from Leoforos is that?

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Seriously you guys should accept nothing but to stay within Athens. I mean you guys are known as PanATHINAIKOS. I still say stay where you are, build an upper deck, add new lighting, put in a sufficient parking lot either at the stadium or nearby. Not only will you guys preserve your history, but UEFA will let you use it again.

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If Greek politicians of present and past, new, or cared, about urban planning, then Athens would NOT have become the monstrous hell that it is.

In the 1950s, this city of less than 400k, full of "neoclassical" architecture, was transformed into the concrete maze that we see today :tdown:

The famous and renowned architect, Dr. Doxiadis, had warned the "planners" what would happen, but MONEY $$$ talked :angry:

Just like then, when the political system was bribed by the unscrupulous "ergolavous" and "civil" engineers who made a killing, we currently have a suspiciously similar scenario played out :angry:

Planning is NOT the priority here, but rather the easiest and most "vote grabbing" solution.

Hellinikon is a larger site, but that is all.

Geographically it is as undesirable, as Man U playing in the city center of Manchester, Celtic playing in the protestant section of Glasgow, Arsenal playing at Chelsey :blink:

The vast majority of PAO fans live in the center and North Athens, (Voreia Proasteia). Goudi is right in that area.

During the Olympics, under the ideal conditions and top priority given to the spectators, it took me 50 mins to get from Panormou to Helliniko. Excluding the time I spend getting to the Metro stations, from and to my house and facilities.

If I had driven, it would had taken even longer. The "paraliakh leoforos" will be a "parking lot", before and after each PAO game. Ample parking is useless in that case.

Goudi is the best choice by far, and only a walk away from the "Katexaki" station.

If they think Goudi is too small, then go to Spata :D

There is plenty of space, a freeway, the Metro, an airport ;) and many more PAO fans :tup:

Hellinikon was a great spot for the Olympic venues, and should be used for youth programs, NOT for PAO :nono:

PEACE

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Drako - Panos is right on the Parking issue. Parking is considered to be one of the major factors for a modern football stadium... This is one of the reasons that the 2 Goudi proposed areas are quite small.....

Adoni - You are correct on Goudi, Helliniko is close to Glyfada!!! Taking Leoforos poseidonos towards Glyfada the area of Helliniko is just before the municipality of Glyfada.... Helliniko is more or less 8km away from the centre of Athens!!!

Pano - I have never doubted that the Giannakopouloi brothers are not good or whatever. But you are wrong on your assumptions... Organising and keeping a football club is much more costly that a basketball club. With the money Vardinogiannides paid Konstadinou you could get the best Basketball players in the world with much less!!! Giannakopoulos hasn't contributed financially for years in the team. However I am not critising him because the product of basketball doesn't sell anymore and its quite normal for them to settle with only domestic success... I will also doubt with what you say on profits... Vardinogiannides never gained from PAO football club. The club has 18mn LOSS to its profit and loss acount along with the rest "ZHMIOGONES" Greek PAE... If PAE or KAE made a profit that would have been certaintly the KAE, but I really doubt that any of the Giannakopouloi or Vardinogiannides make any profits out of PAO. They are both crazy PAO fans and that is why they do it. It is not realistic to say that PAO is like business to them because the inflows compared with the outflows are minimal!!! ;)

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drakos:

UEFA take parking seriously probably because of the issue of access by fans. I don't know. But what I do know is that it is included in the Champions League booklet which you can download from uefa.com

Pappou:

All I have to go by is the performance of the Basketball team over the last few years and compare that to the performances of the football team. I am sure that you will also admit that KAE has been far more successfull under Giannakopouli than ever before.

I am also not sure what exactly the contracts are worth in the basketball team but I doubt players like Wilkins and Radja cost less than the football players. Konstantinou is an exception where veryone was surprised Vardnnogianis paid so much for him.

I am sure that the Giannakopouli would make a more successful business out of PAE than Tzigger is doing or could ever do. I am not talking about Giorgos Vardinnogianis here because he showed alot of balls and he was in the frame with the team all the time. But Tzigger has never done anything for himself. The Giannakopouli brothers are proven business brains and they have made their own fortunes and I am sure they will do that with PAE given the chance. But Tzigger??? Don't make me laugh. The guys hasn't made a penny, he inheritted everything.

Anyway, are you sure that the Vardinnogianides have used the full potential ofPAE Panathinaikos? I am sure there is a lot more room or improvement and I am sure the Giannakopouli would prove to be more astute in that department than Tzigger and his team anyday.

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I also believe that Tzigger is crap but do you honestly think that Tzigger is running the show? Or did you think that Kapetanios was running the show before? PAE PAO has always been owned by Vardis! It always has and it always will (until he dies where Tzigger takes over officially when he will have the know how and the right maturity)....

As far as the contracts of the basketball team that you mention Radja and Wilkins were getting almost 800 mn Dr for 2 or three years contracts (which is 2mn EUR approximately if I remember correctly). Basinas is getting 800.000 EUR a year!!! And on the onw hand you have the probably one of the greatest basketball players of all time and on the other you have Basinas!!! When you speak of Dominique and Radja it is like talking of Zidan and Totti in football standards. So imagine what sort of money you would have needed in order to bring such players in your squad... ;)

This is why I favour both Giannakopouloi and Vardinigiannides. I have no doubt that they both care about PAO. It is just that they operate in completely different sizes and ballgames..... ;)

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Great football players cost more, but can also generate much more income for their teams!

A good football club can fill a 50k+ stadium at least once a week, at higher ticket prices.

Revenue from TV, copyrights, etc., is incomparable to any other sport

Uefa gives generously for advancing in the Euro cups

You could NEVER compare the popularity of football, with that of Fiba basketball, neither the salaries. :nono:

Simple marketing and business:

To make more, you MUST invest more ;)

Unless we hope for a miracle like the one Ethnikh Elladas pulled in the Euro, PAO will only become a great Euro team if $$$ is IVESTED

PEACE

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 months later...

Latest news on PAO stadium...

Today Tzigger is meeting with Souflias on the matter of the PAO ground... Apparently there has been a complete mix up about this subject and I doubt that a logical solution will be given... The Kota-government is unable to take serious measures and provide a fair solution to PAO ground...

On the one hand we hear about Goudi (which is almost impossible due to pressures from the government and the mayors), we hear about Helliniko,and we hear about Votaniko....

Here are the facts...

Goudi - Tzigger wants to go there but Souflias cannot guarantee the smooth build up of the stadium due to municipality, residents of Goudi and Mayor... Apparently if ONE person brings his objection to thje stadium at the "Council of Epikrateia" then the whole construction might be left aside until a court ruling comes out... And this might take years!!! Therefore, Tzigger is very sceptikal to move towards the Goudi area because obviously his investment might end up in the recycle bin!!!

Helliniko - Government supports Helliniko due to the big space and the non-usage of the area there... Apparently for some unkown reason Souflias said that he can control the mayors at Helliniko so that no problem will be created... On the other hand Tzigger and the fans try to avoid Helliniko because of the obvious reasons... PAO is an Athenian team and it is not logical to have its stadium 10 km away from Athens!!!

Votaniko - Votanikos is an area near Omonia, probably the worst and poorer area in the entire municipality of Athens and has nothing to do with PAOs tradinional fan areas (Goudi, Abelokipi, Gyzi, Zografou etc etc). Giannakopouli brothers are up for Votaniko but I think bot Tzigger nor the PAO fans are very eager to go there...

So we are in a complete mix up... The fans and Tzigger want Goudi, but an investment would be very risky there, the government wants Helliniko, Giannakopouloi brothers want Votaniko etc etc...

I completely blame the government for all that has happened! They are unable to make decisions, or have the balls to impose something... So what if some stupid people protest about the ground in Goudi? Tough luck! So did many people for the Tram in Poseidonos Av. in Faliro which was an Olympic construction. Of course the government then, even though people and mayors were protesting, made a decision and done whatever they wanted despite the protests!! But when it comes to PAO ground? No, they have to take into account every idiotic opinion that comes to the table, resulting in a 5 (or more) year delay in the construction of PAOs ground!!!

If I was Tzigger I would simply say... Goudi or Leoforos re-build, or NOTHING!!! I would play my CL games in Touba and Pangritio just to turn the millions of PAO fans against the government... This is the only way forward... We don't want to accept a compromising solution for such an Important matter!!!

SOUFLIA M****I!

TO GHPEDO TOY PAO THA GINEI STO GOUDI!!!!

And then we had bloody Dora Bakogianni (Athens Mayor) speaking about a park in Goudi!!! OYST!!! All we hear about in the last decade is park this ,park that, but no parks are found anywhere near Athens!!! It reminds me of PASOKO-Labraki (the owner of the Vima newspaper and Megaro Moussikis) who stated that El. Venizelos Park will be even better after the construction of the Megaro Moussikis and that the parking of the Megaro will be under the park... Well the PASOKIA gave Labrakis the permit to build near the El. Venizellos park in Abelokipi, and now the Megaro has destroyed the ONLY park in Athens!!!!

This is Greece my friends.... A big Bourdello full of mizes and Lamoia!!!!

some more on the subject by in.gr....

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