mangas21 Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 and IF the queen had b*lls she would be king.................................. enough of the excuses....i am not crazy about many of otto's recent tactics, but in this specific game, otto put the players in a position to win...even with the defensive lineup, we had chances....the players are JUST NOT GOOD ENOUGH... the referee scr*wed us, the thism, the that, enough already....its this type of lack of accoutability that is really misguided......we lost 2-0......period.....IF we were a better team we would not have lost 2-0.....thats it.....after the game you can spin it any way you want, you can interpret it anyway you want to come to the conclusion that you want to.... but 2-0 is still 2-0.....missed opportunities are still missed opoortunities....so yes, it is relevant that we are mediocire....if we werent we would have won.... just say it....WE ARE A MEDIOCRE TEAM....its ok, you wont turn into a bougatsa because you say it....any discusssion that does not acknowledge and BEGIN with the fact that we are a mediocre team is unrealistic, and intellectually dishonest.... if u continjue to comment without accpeting this, then any comments lack any credibility.....when you start a conversation blaming the ref, balming this and that, and not admiting we are very average every other word is suspect... i dont think the players were not trying their best....i just dont think the TEAM is good...weather its 50/50 otto players, 60/40, 70/30 dont know.....i know 2-0 i know second place in the weakest qualfying group....and those are not opinions they are facts.... so why not focus the discussion on the real issues, and not the excuses... sorry but thats the way i see it, with all due respect to all of course.....u think i like the fact that we are very average? i have a tatoo of a greek freakin flag on my arm for gods sake...jajajjjaja....but i am also a realist and i hope that thats what is coming across..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellene Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 mangas 21 - my father in law once said to me "never argue with a person who has a tattoo or skoulariki, yiati den vgenis pera" hehe.....joooooke anyway, i disagree with Greece being mediocre, otherwise they wouldnt be in top 10-15 nations on earth.... did they try the other night? yes they did did they get shafted by mediocre referee? yes they did do they use the same nucleous of players? yes they do generally are we still a chance to qualify? nai!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangas21 Posted September 7, 2009 Share Posted September 7, 2009 helene, thats funny......no earing, dont worry. this is not an argument, its simply a discussion....no titles, no grudges, no reprecussions...just truth... and the truth is we are mediocre...we did not qualify for WC 2006, we got spanked in euro 08, on the verge of getting emabarassed in this group....do u call that a good team? on any given day any team can beat any other team...but thats not real...its only real when the team wins consistently, qualifies consistently, places well in all the international tournaments consistently, its only then that i would dare to say the greek team is a good team... the FIFA ranking are bulls*it.....we all know that....i would say at this point greece NOT anywhere near the top 15 i the WORLD....please think about what you are saying.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euro2004 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Mangas21, I want to know what your definition of "mediocre" is? Yes Greece is mediocre, but so is Switzerland. In fact the vast majority of the teams that will feature at the world cup will be nothing more than "decent". We simply don't have the players to compete with Spain, Brazil, and Argentina on a regular basis. However Greece is no worse than Switzerland and many other teams that will be at the world cup. We expect and demand fair refereeing. The referee cost us the game against Switzerland, regardless of how you spin it Greece were playing with 10 men from 42mins. We tired and they scored twice in the last 8 mins. Prior to that we were the better team. Frank De Bleeckere didn't just play a major role, he was a deciding factor in the outcome of the match. None of this is Rehaggel's fault. We all have views about how the team should be managed but when I hear things like "Mendrinos and Dimoutsos should be on the team" then I'm relieved that Rehaggel is in charge! If I was manager I'd pick this team: ....................................................Halkias......................................................... ...........................Papasta.............Kyrgiakos...........Moras................................... Torosidis...........................Ninis..................Katsouranis.....................Spyropoulos Salpi...........................................Samaras.........................................Karagounis I'd also have Mantzios, Mitroglou and Koutsianikoulis as key members in my squad. Now I'd pick this team because I believe it would provide us with the best possible balance of attacking threat and defensive solidity. However I'm not stupid enough to think this would be the perfect team without any problems. Papasta is inexperienced and often neglects his defensive duties, Ninis is small and might struggle with the physical aspect of central midfield, Karagounis isn't left footed (although I do believe he's at his most effective when on the left and cutting in. If Spyro overlaps him we can generate width). Samaras is 100% better as a sub then as a starter, he always has more of an impact in this role. Gekas isn't in this team and yet he's our best finisher. So I'm perfectly capable of seeing how my own team would have limitations. There's no such thing as the perfect team. Not even teams like Brazil can acheive that, let alone Greece! So we all have views about how the team could be improved, but ultimately, yes Mangas21 we aren't a great team. You say "mediocre" I say somewhere between "decent and good", nonetheless we are good enough to be at the world cup but our hopes have taken a serious blow. This has happened because of Frank De Bleeckere not because of Rehaggel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mangas21 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 hi euro, whats up...i will try and address your points/questions.... the first thing is that if we are to engage in a meaningful discussion about this team that we all obviously bleed blue and white for , we HAVE to be intelectually and practically honest....right? anybody who thinks greece is a good team right now at this point is fooling themselves...and, any further discussion that has that idea as its basis is really misguided.... Mangas21, I want to know what your definition of "mediocre" is? Yes Greece is mediocre, but so is Switzerland. In fact the vast majority of the teams that will feature at the world cup will be nothing more than "decent". We simply don't have the players to compete with Spain, Brazil, and Argentina on a regular basis. i agree. mediocre is average. middle of the road. i believe greece right now is probably one of the better second tier teams, which in the big picute make them middle of the road. [/i]However Greece is no worse than Switzerland and many other teams that will be at the world cup. i agree. The referee cost us the game against Switzerland, regardless of how you spin it Greece were playing with 10 men from 42mins. We tired and they scored twice in the last 8 mins. Prior to that we were the better team. Frank De Bleeckere didn't just play a major role, he was a deciding factor in the outcome of the match. Dont think the ref was a deciding factor. It was still 0-0 when the red card happened. He had an impact, yes. But deciding faactor? no. the deciding factor was amanatidi missing a golden chance and i think spyropoulo missing another golden chance...good teams put those away,mediocre teams dont. i do think greece was outplaying swiss until the red, but outplay and outscore are very different things. if we were up 2-0, and then red carded and then we lsot 4-2, then i could say the ref was a deiding factor.....that did not happen here, and there is not guarantee that if we stayed even we would have won... None of this is Rehaggel's fault. We all have views about how the team should be managed but when I hear things like "Mendrinos and Dimoutsos should be on the team" then I'm relieved that Rehaggel is in charge! never said it was his fualt. and i never suggested those two players you mentioned. this game i think otto had it right, but the P L A Y E R S were not good enought to get it done. I am not citicizing otto in this specific game, at all...he put the guys in the position to do something they just could not do it...otto has his shortcomings, the biggest of whch is taking too long to infuse the younger guys into the team.....but remeber each stage he was qualifying for something, so he was walking a fine line between risking qualification with youthful inexperience or increasing the chances of qualifying with his battle tested guys....we all have seen how that has worked....also i think he is not good at adjusting tactics as was seen in the swiss game.....so overall he has done alot for greek soccer but has not capitalized on the euro04 by using it as a springboard...politics etc have also alot to do with that and i wont get into that here...but for this game i never blamed otto...he substitutions were alittle strange though dont u htink? i like your squad and agree with al your comments aobut the players. and yes there is no perfect team, i agree.....and ialso agree about being between "decent and good"....maybe thats your definition of mediocre....???? but if we dont make it to the world cup we are not good enough to be in the world cup...simple...if we finsih third then we were the third best team...some things are black and white, and that is one of htem....i guess we differ here....i would not say that we were the best eam but we finished thired becuae of a, b, c, d.......i would say we were the third best team becuase two other teams had more points than us....i would not look to excuses and reasons to explain why we failed....every time greece fails to qualify, its lawys excuses excuses excuses.....i guess that what i am tired of...its ok to admit that in spite of our history, passion, a few good ahowing here and there, and a euro under our belt, we are at this moment a mediocre or good to decent team....lets not be blind to reality folks....it makes the debate much more rewarding and enriching when we start from the same premise.. dont forget we did not get red carded 1 minute into the game.....we were even for along time and blew some great chances and screwed up some other buldups that had lots of space, especially on the left side....0-0 until that event and STILL had the chance to go up 1-0....even down one guy...but we could not...why? just not good enough.... so i thnk we agree on most points...i am jst abit more of a harsh grader "russian judge" jajajajaaj...... dood i ahve been watching greek soccer for 35 years....if i had a dollar every time i heard " the ref screwed us, we did not get the call, we should had a penalty awarded, the field was wet, we had too many injuries, we played better but lost, the coach did htis etcet...i would be a millionaire....its rare that i hear people facing up to the facts...there is no shame the fact that our guys try their best, they give it all but their best was not good enough"....their is no shame in that..... but in soccer nobody remembers anything except the finall score...and teams that CONSISTENTLY win are good teams...teams that dont are mediocre....and worse in THIS qualifying group, not finishiung first pretty much tells you all u need to know.... i would love to see the team go all out offenseive to see hwat would happen...just once change the tactic..... lets see what happens...... 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warzycha Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Hey Guys In reality it is not over for Greece still to obtain top place. Switzerland still have to play Latvia (away) and Israel (home), Latvia at the moment have caused a surprise and may have killed Israel chances but if Latvia beat Switzerland and Greece beat Moldova then we are level on 16 points each...If this happens which I hope it does it, then it is all on. The issue really is Greece no longer controls the destiny of finishing top and is now relying on other teams to beat Switzerland..don't forget they still have to play Luxembourg who are the only team to beat Switzerland. My main issue in world football is FIFA are not moving with the times. Technology has to be used to assist referees to a degree. Not with every decision but I saw one game this past week where a player was onside by 5 metres who scored and was called offside as another player who was not involved in the play was caught signalled offside. This is the frustrating aspect is that referees and linesmen need help as a split second is all that it takes to get a wrong call that can change a game. In this case the goal scored cost the team victory, this can be the difference betweemn winning a championship or being relegated. The stakes are too high and the players, coaches and official need all the help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toovey Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 look i thought greece played better than the swiss on the night especially in the 1st half. after that the teams and otto's hands were tied as we were down to 10 men...so 1 attacker had to be withdrawn deeper - any coach of any grade would have done the same thing - and rely on the counter attack.. otto only brings in new young players once they have proven themselves in a european club eg moras-papastathopoulos or playing for the top 2-3 greek clubs - and rightly so! you cant justify bench players for their club playing in the national team ?? just for the sake of new faces! we do have some good young players but their are not getting their chances in the big 3 athens clubs and it ultimately hurts the national team - but this is a growing problem for most european nations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAO_OR_DEATH Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Hey Guys In reality it is not over for Greece still to obtain top place. Switzerland still have to play Latvia (away) and Israel (home), Latvia at the moment have caused a surprise and may have killed Israel chances but if Latvia beat Switzerland and Greece beat Moldova then we are level on 16 points each...If this happens which I hope it does it, then it is all on. The issue really is Greece no longer controls the destiny of finishing top and is now relying on other teams to beat Switzerland..don't forget they still have to play Luxembourg who are the only team to beat Switzerland. My main issue in world football is FIFA are not moving with the times. Technology has to be used to assist referees to a degree. Not with every decision but I saw one game this past week where a player was onside by 5 metres who scored and was called offside as another player who was not involved in the play was caught signalled offside. This is the frustrating aspect is that referees and linesmen need help as a split second is all that it takes to get a wrong call that can change a game. In this case the goal scored cost the team victory, this can be the difference betweemn winning a championship or being relegated. The stakes are too high and the players, coaches and official need all the help. I saw that too, what a joke ifil scored and the m ighty phoenix were robbed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!twice in one weeken i was robbed by a ref!@!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarvis1981 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 Hey Guys In reality it is not over for Greece still to obtain top place. Switzerland still have to play Latvia (away) and Israel (home), Latvia at the moment have caused a surprise and may have killed Israel chances but if Latvia beat Switzerland and Greece beat Moldova then we are level on 16 points each...If this happens which I hope it does it, then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jarvis1981 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 In that under 21 game (greece vs england) Ninis looked like a man playing with boys. He was that good. The best player on the pitch. He should be starting on the national team. Mitroglou had great chances but failed to finish. Should have had 2 goals. He's close but maybe a year away from national team. But he shouldn't have to wait 5 years. Final score was 1-1 with Ninis getting the goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
js1000 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 In that under 21 game (greece vs england) Ninis looked like a man playing with boys. He was that good. The best player on the pitch. He should be starting on the national team. Mitroglou had great chances but failed to finish. Should have had 2 goals. He's close but maybe a year away from national team. But he shouldn't have to wait 5 years. Final score was 1-1 with Ninis getting the goal. trouble is ninis can't get a game for his club side. i wish he was playing abroad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clover22 Posted September 8, 2009 Share Posted September 8, 2009 look i thought greece played better than the swiss on the night especially in the 1st half. after that the teams and otto's hands were tied as we were down to 10 men...so 1 attacker had to be withdrawn deeper - any coach of any grade would have done the same thing - and rely on the counter attack.. otto only brings in new young players once they have proven themselves in a european club eg moras-papastathopoulos or playing for the top 2-3 greek clubs - and rightly so! you cant justify bench players for their club playing in the national team ?? just for the sake of new faces! we do have some good young players but their are not getting their chances in the big 3 athens clubs and it ultimately hurts the national team - but this is a growing problem for most european nations. Just because some players are not playing for the big 3 or some other league in Europe doesn't mean they shouldn't be called up for the NT. A lot of the NT players in 04 were coming off the bench at their clubs, remember? The Greek league is f ucked up and poorly managed which results in talent being overlooked. If I see a talented player that can deliver, I would call him regardless. If the ability in a player is there, too bad for the other teams that can't recognize it! F UCK 'EM if they're that stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAO_OR_DEATH Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 we pao nuters have all been wanting NINIS to start for years!!!! i remember i was in athens when he scored his first goal for PAO and since then he has played probably 10 games (if that) I thought we had a wonderkind on our hands that we could mold into a zidane or henry....but the managers lets us pao fans down....and us ethniki fans too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAO_OR_DEATH Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 s%$#! its been my sig for about 2 years now as well...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAO_OR_DEATH Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 ok well im up and ready to go, anthems atm.Will tell line up when i find out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genome Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 ok well im up and ready to go, anthems atm.Will tell line up when i find out Post here : http://clubs.phantis.com/sports/index.php?...showtopic=12817 :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAO_OR_DEATH Posted September 9, 2009 Share Posted September 9, 2009 gkekas, angelo and samaras up front. i missed it sorry will try add it later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PAO_OR_DEATH Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 sorry, lack of sleep does beautiful things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primetime Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 everyone wants Otto gone, I agree with you all. but think about with who they are going to replace Otto. No coach will want to coach the Greek NT. no descent coach. second the players chosen by Otto for Midfield and Defence, what other choices does he have. most of our players on D don't play. most of the players on MD dont play. Katsouranis and Kara play. Kyriakos plays on a regular basis. That is it. You guys get mad for Ottos choices, so do I but he doesnt have much to work with either. Cut the guy some slack. I just hope that GREEK players will play on bigger clubs on a regular basis and be able to help the NT. If we take the Squad in 2004 they were all playing on a team and consistently and on top of that most of them were playing together so they had some chemistry. now most of the team is from left to right and placed together to form a "team". Unless someone has a better solution to the problem, stop critiscising the manager and team. Yes he has favorites but what everyone in this world is BIAISED!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akritis_1944 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 everyone wants Otto gone, I agree with you all. but think about with who they are going to replace Otto. No coach will want to coach the Greek NT. no descent coach. second the players chosen by Otto for Midfield and Defence, what other choices does he have. most of our players on D don't play. most of the players on MD dont play. Katsouranis and Kara play. Kyriakos plays on a regular basis. That is it. You guys get mad for Ottos choices, so do I but he doesnt have much to work with either. Cut the guy some slack. I just hope that GREEK players will play on bigger clubs on a regular basis and be able to help the NT. If we take the Squad in 2004 they were all playing on a team and consistently and on top of that most of them were playing together so they had some chemistry. now most of the team is from left to right and placed together to form a "team". Unless someone has a better solution to the problem, stop critiscising the manager and team. Yes he has favorites but what everyone in this world is BIAISED!!!! You're entitled to your own opinion.....BUT YOU ARE WRONG!Otto needs to go. I'd take any coach over him at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primetime Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 how is my opinion wrong. All I said is what do you want Otto to do wen most of the players of the NT dont event play on the first team on the domestic front and who else would coach GREECE to a tournament or even have a chance to qualify for one. Otto does need to go. I agree but who do you bring in to take over???? Santos, Bajevic, Lemonis, Georgos Donis, Nikolaidis,?????????? name me a manager that is qualified and willing to come and manage the NT???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akritis_1944 Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 how is my opinion wrong. All I said is what do you want Otto to do wen most of the players of the NT dont event play on the first team on the domestic front and who else would coach GREECE to a tournament or even have a chance to qualify for one. Otto does need to go. I agree but who do you bring in to take over???? Santos, Bajevic, Lemonis, Georgos Donis, Nikolaidis,?????????? name me a manager that is qualified and willing to come and manage the NT???? You made the point that the players don't play for their teams...the solution is obvious...you don't play them.Otto is responsible for the roster. He selects players without clubs (i.e. Tziolis, Seitaridis) and plays others in unfamilar positions. He is not fit for the role. I am not sure who is suitable for the role...but Poland, belgium and maybe even Croatia are looking for new managers at this moment. We got Otto 9 years ago and for the most part 2001-2004 it was master stroke decision....Post 2004 it's been disastrous. EPO needs to head-hunt a new manager, it is that simple! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
primetime Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Ok Then. WHO should EPO bring in to manage our team to qualifying for a tournament and that is willing to do so???????????????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genome Posted September 10, 2009 Share Posted September 10, 2009 Dick Advocaat if he's not going to Belgium that is :P ... There are managers enough to bring in, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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