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Greece V Cyprus: Oct. 7, 2016 World Cup Qualifier - Georgios Karaiskakis Stadium ( Piraeus )


HellasLEAF

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16 hours ago, Rockafeller Skank said:

Tzavellas has to be in the squad due to his ability to play both Left Back and Left Centerback. He also gives the whole "corrupt EPO only favors Oly/Aek/PAO/PAOK players" a cut. He is far more solid as cb than Oikonomu , our 4th in the row, so I totally want him in the squad. He doesn't have to start however.

 

Skibbe made his point by benching Holebas at the match against Gibraltar. His choice to have Tzavellas over Holebas cost us a goal scored against us, and maybe a few more chances created by Holebas himself. He will be a fool if he thinks that - benching Holebas for the good of the team - is actually a move that will have a good ending for the team. Tzavellas as a LB lead our NT to get scored from Gibraltar. Would be quite harder for such mistakes not to appear against teams like Cyprus and Bosnia. If he is a professional he will talk with Holebas and see this through.

 

Karelis isnt even playing at Genk right now, not sure why/what's happening. Gianniotas is a MUST on the squad. brings pace, has a footballer's brain and is totally in form.Plus he plays in the cypriot league and might know a couple of defenders well enough. Since Maniatis aint even allowed to train with Olympiakos, I'd give a try to siopis,  at least a call-up

 

 

 

What about Bouchalakis then?A call up should be essential.

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boucha needs at least one good season with oly before i'd consider him a starter.

i'm 80% sure that he'll accomplish that this season.

Samaris, Mantalos, Ninis, Fortounis are all in form and should start.

we only really need samaris as a dm really unless we're playing belgium

Tachtsidis is still way better than Petsos, Bouchalakis, Tziolis if you ask me. Maniatis should start if he's got a club cause he works great with Samaris and does a lot of endurance work for us

Fortounis Ninis Mantalos

               samaris

mayhaps

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1 hour ago, GrkCdn22 said:

I honestly think that you just like to debate me for the sake of debating. Everything I say, you argue. I think I completely shattered your ego by the number of times I've handedly and decidedly decimated you in our debates. You even admitted to another user that you are guilty of the strawman argument when you know you're wrong. And with me, you do nothing but clutch at straws.

Coming out of the World Cup, our LB position was a disaster. We even had to resort to going to Karabelas, if you recall. That's how great your boy Stafylidis was. He was considered a poor man's option as a replacement for the injured/exiled Holebas.

While he's been better, your strawman argument of saying that he has a higher ceiling than Tzavellas has no merit. Should we play our 12 year old superstars out there because they have amazing potential? We need to win games, and you put the best available in qualifiers and tournaments. 

Saying Stafylidis is a better player than Tzavellas is subjective, but I'm certain you're only considering club performances into consideration because you even went as far as to say that he plays for a better club in a better league, as if that has anything to do with him being a better player for Greece. That argument is nullified by the fact that a player like Salpingidis is one of the most successful Greek national team players over the past decade or so and never played a single minute for a team outside of Greece, and spent most of his career with Tzavellas' current team.

We have yet to see Stafylidis have a big game in a meaningful qualifier or tournament game, whereas we have seen Tzavellas come up big in both. Until then, I would much rather have Tzavellas in there. What a luxury it is to have a defender as your best set-piece taker, and how much nicer it is when he can make up for your midfield's overall lacklustre set-piece taking ability.

Yet another strawman argument when you say that Holebas, Stafylidis or Tachtsidis can take set-pieces. You purposely left the word out "effectively". Tachtsidis is just a waste of space, while Holebas has a wicked shot and can cross them nice, but he's very ineffective in a dead ball situation as we've seen time and again.

I don't know why you're bringing Karagounis into this, but with his set-piece taking ability slowly deteriorating, he was still the best we had. The only time he really didn't have it anymore was a few instances in the 2014 World Cup. Karagounis brought more than a few goals and solid chances in the Santos era because of his set-pieces.

Obviously Tzavellas isn't at the level of Tsiartas. I bet you think you're clever for thinking of that one. But he's currently the best we have, and with his recurring return to the NT fold under Skibbe, I think it's plain to see. We were sorely lacking an effective set-piece taker in the Euro 2016 qualifiers with Karagounis retired and Tzavellas out of the fold.

It's just too easy debating with you, aek66.

 

I think you re the one who s debating just for the sake of debating. A player who is that bad against a team like Gibraltar (poor offensively, poor defensively , personal mistake cost a goal being scored against us) sure will rise questions on the coach and his assistants. Of course that doesn't mean we delete a professional footballer just for 1 mistake. But we have in our mind that he is not as solid as he should be , in order to help us reach a top 2 finish. 

I don't rate Stafylidis as a top defender. I rate stafylidis as a good wingerback. I don't rate Tzavellas as a top Left Back anymore, he seemed off position against League 1 and Gibraltar League players. So I would rather have another guy at offence being able to use his pace and maybe dribbles against no-namer defenders and help that way, than a CenterBack who s not even following the match.

I might look harsh, but to be fair TZAVELLARAS was good vs Netherlands. If he keeps good appearances with Paok as well, a defender spot is reserved for him, also due to his ability to "play" 2 positions.

 

Also I don't see how the tam/league you play has nothing to do with it.

First Bigger competition means more tryhard, players all the time in form. Another thing is that whoever leaves Paok ex:Katsouranis,Tziolis,Salpiggidis, tend to have biiiiig troubles finding a new team. If that tells you nothing , that not even a Levadiakos,Panseraikos are not interested in these players, I don't know what will.

Edited by Rockafeller Skank
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7 hours ago, GrkCdn22 said:

I would take that statement seriously. Then I remembered that you have the word "Skank" in your username.

No, I don't just debate for the sake of debating. I made very relevant posts that added value to the discussions at hand. Tzavellas was being talked about, so I gave my input about Tzavellas. A 5 man defense formation was in question, so I gave my input about that (which you still haven't addressed). Mr. Care Bear came on over and does what he usually does, which is sarcastically bring up moments years ago from the player in question, as if it gives him any leverage in his argument but it actually makes him look all the more stupid when I pick him apart yet again, which will once again leave him speechless with no avenue to retort. 

Tzavellas didn't have his best game against Gibraltar, but you can also point to others, such as Karnezis who once again just watched a ball fly right into his net with no effort at all to save it. There were other instances that left him motionless and vulnerable to a goal if the shot was on target. 

As you mentioned, Tzavellas was pretty good against Netherlands and I think he's had some solid outings under Skibbe. And as for your argument that the team and league that a player plays for is relevant, I agree but only to an extent. If that were the main factor, would Rehaggel not have included Akis Zikos in his Euro 2004 squad simply because he was a starter for a Champions League finalist? Wouldn't Salpingidis have never been a mainstay with the national team and score crucial goals against some of the best teams in the world and/or in big time games?

Your argument about the players you listed not being able to find new teams is irrelevant and misplaced. In particular Salpi and Katsouranis, these guys were at the end of their careers when they couldn't find a new team. Salpi made a move to Panathinaikos from PAOK when he was younger which turned out just fine. He was a starter, won the Greek double and played in the Champions League, before going back to PAOK.

fair point on the fact that both Salpi and Katsou were old, it's something I was aware while posting it but Im pretty sure that's not just it. 

The whole Zikos thing is totally irrelavant as we are actually talking about only 1 player playing in a decent team who was not selected under Rehhangel, which means he either couldn't fit in an Otto scheme or there was personal confict between the two.

Noone disagrees that 2 εντεκάδες , one with only foreign based players(if we can find in every position) and one with GSL all stars (which would be nice to see in football but its impossible due to rivalry) would be a very ανισσόροπο match.

 

I just see 2 people having the will to fight with each other on the forum. It makes me think that the only reason you 2 log in is just to answer to each other. You are nothing superior if you are too much into him. You, like him, just wanna say the last word. If you remember correctly I was the one backing u up in the Samaras thread. Makes me feel kinda funny that you hadn't noticed the "Skank" in my name then, and only did now that you saw me sorta oppose you.

 

This is where my name comes from, if you have any questions about how the hell i ended up with such a ridiculous name: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMrIy9zm7QY 

 

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So, which one was Skank, one of the three golliwogs, the fat cowboy with the trembling glass, the guy who opened the door or that dancing girl in that apartment re? Didn't mind that song back in the day.

Laz you write songs this is your thing!

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Tzavellas is one of the most inform greek players going around atm. 

Tzavellas was man of the match in two games versus ajax, and played well in the last two games for the ethniki

Skibbe well start tzavellas. 

Stafylidis has a long way to go if he wants to start. 

Edited by PAOKSYD
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All coaches have their favourites, and German coaches value team before individual talent. Scibbe is no different.

Zikos' last international was with Cyprus, as a sub coming on in the 85' minute in Athens, in Nov 2001. I think, story has it that Rehhagel tried to get Zikos on the park earlier but Zikos refused. After that Katsouranis came into squad and rest was history. Interestingly, Greece lost to Cyprus 1-2 in that match.  

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to me it's

1. holebas

2. tzavellas

3. stafylidis

 

what about having kpaps manolas sokratis (as RB)

and put Torosidis as LB (he did this for us in his early NT days, can't recall how effective it was tho)

Not gunna be good for us offensively, but defensively which is what the focus at the back should be, we'd have other teams on lock down imo

Edited by georgelaz
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3 hours ago, kbxk508 said:

All coaches have their favourites, and German coaches value team before individual talent. Scibbe is no different.

Zikos' last international was with Cyprus, as a sub coming on in the 85' minute in Athens, in Nov 2001. I think, story has it that Rehhagel tried to get Zikos on the park earlier but Zikos refused. After that Katsouranis came into squad and rest was history. Interestingly, Greece lost to Cyprus 1-2 in that match.  

 

I dont see how the assumption that Zikos refused can be seen as a logical comment. Do we have any proof?

Also I agree, maybe the arrivalf a talent like Katsouranis, who proved a key player for the NT could be the reason of his drop.

Moreover the guy could have been an absolute douchebag praising himself for playing in Porto and stuff, since not many greeks were playing abroad then. Maybe he wanted to be the star and Otto punished him for that.

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20 hours ago, Rockafeller Skank said:

I dont see how the assumption that Zikos refused can be seen as a logical comment. Do we have any proof?

Δεύτερο στοιχείο: επεισόδιο στον πάγκο

"... Λάθος γιατί τότε έκλεισε η πόρτα της Εθνικής για τον Ζήκο και δεν έκλεισε ούτε αναίτια ούτε εξαιτίας κάποιου μυστικού γεγονότος. Δεύτερο φιλικό της Εθνικής με τον Ρεχάγκελ, κόντρα στην Κύπρο στο γήπεδο της Καισαριανής. Ο Ρεχάγκελ έχει κάνει τέσσερις αλλαγές και στο 85’ ζητάει απ’τον Ζήκο να μπει κι αυτός. Ο ποδοσφαιριστής αρνείται, επικαλείται το γεγονός πως ο αγώνας τελειώνει σε λίγο και οι δυο τους έχουν επεισόδιο στον πάγκο, πριν τελικά ο Ζήκος μπει ως αλλαγή και φορέσει το εθνόσημο για τελευταία φορά."

... Προς τιμήν του, ο Γερμανός όχι μόνο δεν μίλησε ποτέ δημόσια για το επεισόδιο με τον Ζήκο στα εννέα χρόνια που ακολούθησαν, αλλά πήγε να δει και τον Ζήκο από κοντά τη σεζόν 2003-04 όταν αγωνιζόταν στη Μονακό. Στην επιστροφή του είπε στον Γκαγκάτση “καλός είναι, αλλά εγώ θα καλέσω τον Κατσουράνη”.

http://www.contra.gr/Columns/Mythbusters/giati-o-rexagkel-den-adikhse-ton-zhko-to-2004.3387465.html

 

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On 15/9/2016 at 6:02 PM, georgelaz said:

to me it's

1. holebas

2. tzavellas

3. stafylidis

 

what about having kpaps manolas sokratis (as RB)

and put Torosidis as LB (he did this for us in his early NT days, can't recall how effective it was tho)

Not gunna be good for us offensively, but defensively which is what the focus at the back should be, we'd have other teams on lock down imo

 

no , lets not create a defence full of weak points just to make one improvement.

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4 hours ago, kbxk508 said:

Δεύτερο στοιχείο: επεισόδιο στον πάγκο

"... Λάθος γιατί τότε έκλεισε η πόρτα της Εθνικής για τον Ζήκο και δεν έκλεισε ούτε αναίτια ούτε εξαιτίας κάποιου μυστικού γεγονότος. Δεύτερο φιλικό της Εθνικής με τον Ρεχάγκελ, κόντρα στην Κύπρο στο γήπεδο της Καισαριανής. Ο Ρεχάγκελ έχει κάνει τέσσερις αλλαγές και στο 85’ ζητάει απ’τον Ζήκο να μπει κι αυτός. Ο ποδοσφαιριστής αρνείται, επικαλείται το γεγονός πως ο αγώνας τελειώνει σε λίγο και οι δυο τους έχουν επεισόδιο στον πάγκο, πριν τελικά ο Ζήκος μπει ως αλλαγή και φορέσει το εθνόσημο για τελευταία φορά."

... Προς τιμήν του, ο Γερμανός όχι μόνο δεν μίλησε ποτέ δημόσια για το επεισόδιο με τον Ζήκο στα εννέα χρόνια που ακολούθησαν, αλλά πήγε να δει και τον Ζήκο από κοντά τη σεζόν 2003-04 όταν αγωνιζόταν στη Μονακό. Στην επιστροφή του είπε στον Γκαγκάτση “καλός είναι, αλλά εγώ θα καλέσω τον Κατσουράνη”.

http://www.contra.gr/Columns/Mythbusters/giati-o-rexagkel-den-adikhse-ton-zhko-to-2004.3387465.html

 

 

thanks

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Aek66 you got dissed so hard your funeral should be arranged for the ongoing weekend.
 

Grkcdaghaslgha howver his name is, is correct. Set pieces are good if you have the talent and you lack any attacking creativity , as we do right now.

I won't give in any morei n this 1v1. You guys are strong men and you gotta fight fairly, tantra let the boys become men.

 

I came here for Vellios, and it has something to do with the attacking creativity I mentioned earlier. Gianniotas as well. Something tells me these two might be Πηλώνες of the National Team for the upcomming years. They are too young to take the whole NT on their shoulders, and vellios just can't start when we have Mitroglou. Karelis aint even playing for Belgium team so Im losing hope for him.

Vellios scored 3 in 3 matches. Regained confidence. 2 of the goals were absolute WTF moments. Maybe that creativity can be found with him and Gianniotas an excellent dribbler with sensational (I play FIFA so much I even use commentatory quotes) pace. He needs to work out on his crossing however.

I just hope they don't follow the "O ELLHNAS MESSI" path like Ninis,Fetfatzidis and Koutsianikoulis did, and just ruin their career before 25.

With Samaris out of plan I can't expect anyone else other than Tachtsidis being called, who has some sort of playtime in Italy - but nothing too serious. Someone Serie A fit is totally a better solution than Tziolis and Maniatis. That doesn't mean we need to delete , Maniatis at least , from the NT. Im sure a team will be found to pay his wages.

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To be fair Samaris had struggles with Gibraltar. I d like someone else tested with the "smaller teams" of the group like Cyprus and Estonia. I know they re a lot better than Gibraltar , at least Cyprus, but if 1 player missing makes us lose/draw Cyprus at home , what's the point of Even trying to Qualify? To get nuked in the groupstage ?

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grkcdn knows what he's talking about, communication style could be a bit more diplomatic with others, cause we're all brothers here but still i really like his commentary personally

I talking about this with my dad, this is why the jews in general are succesfful than greeks. us greeks have been fighting each other since the ancient times (spartans vs. athenians) whereas the jews always look out for each other.

we gotta have a stronger brotherhood guys and not throw each other under the bus.

Edited by georgelaz
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We need to uphold the Greek Adonis look in the squad so Samaras needs to come back in, and Tziol goes needs to get out as he holds this role especially now that Samaris has a fingernail injury.

Taxi needs to come back in too.

Edited by ausgreek
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12 hours ago, GrkCdn22 said:

 

Careful, Rockafeller. Remember tantra accused you of being a fake account of mine, and then later accused you of being a parody account?

I agree about Gianniotas and Vellios, and like you said, they can't be placed with a big burden just yet. But the potential is there and they have a place in the 23 man squad.

As for Samaris, I agree that he struggled. He's been struggling for a long time with the Ethniki. Tzavellas' struggles is the hot topic of the past few days but Samaris keeps getting praised and given slack when he's been one of our poorest performers of the past two years. I'm not a fan of Tachtsidis and I don't think he could get the job done, but Tziolis is no better. Maniatis has proven to be our best defensive midfield for quite some time. I say we should even consider putting KPaps beside Maniatis in a DM role. He's done it in the past with success. 

 

No I dont remember because I dont check evey bullshiet comment htere is on this forum. I only come here for the NT mostly.

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we are still with tzavellas getting a call up, but not being our starter. Holebas match against man u wasnt the only match he played well. he played against west ham as well. 2 totally solid teams. if skibbe denies him gametime because he bitched about being used as a LW it is gonna be catastrophic. He can step down if that means he can achieve his goal , which is to create a solid team that can try to qualify for the WC 2018.

Otto did it as well but otto had decent back ups. Stafylidis is good and has potential but not ready yet to take the burdain of the starter in my humble opinion.

Why have a solid defensively team and ruin it by creating a gap? 

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