Jump to content
Phantis Forums

Brexit


Should Britain Leave EU?  

28 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Britain Leave EU?


This poll is closed to new votes


Recommended Posts

It's really hilarious for people who don't live in the UK to take this overly romantic view of a racist xenophobe.

Unfortunately people seem to confuse reality with Reality TV. They think it's the same thing.

 

To all those to seem to have difficulty telling apart their ass from their elbow.

BBC: Reality Check: Have Leave campaigners changed their tune?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Unfortunately people seem to confuse reality with Reality TV. They think it's the same thing.

 

 

Hey, are you knocking Drumpf? He's going to make America great again....

 

 

[click on the title in the video if this link doesn't work; HBO is blocking this video from being played on other websites, but it's OK on Youtube]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm going against most of the sentiments here but my personal opinion is that Nigel Farage is a borderline racist. There's enough proof out there that he is. He's also lowlife who doesn't care about Greece or the people of Greece.

He might criticise the EU but it's to serve his ideology. So Britain is out of the EU, what now manga? Apparently it's not his problem.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The vast majority of Brits who voted Brexit are driven by anti immigration

 

 

The vast majority of Greeks who want Grexit are either left wing extremists who have a predictable anti West slant to everything (see KKE/Syriza)

 

Or Greeks who believe that if we could just go back to the old days of doing things our own way...no one would notice...pensions at 48...jobs for life..no taxes...entire villages on invalid pensions...life is good..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again the reality is if you are in the UK the picture is different.

Manufacturing is almost dead in this country, and even the brexit economist Minford is on record as saying it is likely to die. Leave the EU , and the financial institutions lose their right to passporting. 


The UK will be fine you say? Something like 15% of the total tax take is based on The City (not including auxiliaries such as accountants and lawyers), estimates think the accountants and lawyers contribute around 15%.  If the UK leaves 30% of a budget (already in deficit) is at risk. 
Outside of the EU borrowing costs are likely to go up, the sovereign debt is already astronomical, so more money will be lost here. It's not inconceivable the UK will lose over 20% of its government's revenues. Government spending is something like 40 - 45% of GDP. Lose 20% of that and you just lost 9% of GDP. All this in a climate where the electorate wants a budget deficit to be wiped out, further austerity or tax rises will be required.


Farage came to no ones recsue. He is nothing more than demagogue who has this bunch of followers from the diaspora who have no understanding of the UK domestic situation. 
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The vast majority of Brits who voted Brexit are driven by anti immigration

 

 

The vast majority of Greeks who want Grexit are either left wing extremists who have a predictable anti West slant to everything (see KKE/Syriza)

 

Or Greeks who believe that if we could just go back to the old days of doing things our own way...no one would notice...pensions at 48...jobs for life..no taxes...entire villages on invalid pensions...life is good..

 

I thought it was right wing extremists that are typically and sometimes aggressively anti immigration.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm going against most of the sentiments here but my personal opinion is that Nigel Farage is a borderline racist. There's enough proof out there that he is. He's also lowlife who doesn't care about Greece or the people of Greece.

He might criticise the EU but it's to serve his ideology. So Britain is out of the EU, what now manga? Apparently it's not his problem.

 

You are possibly right about Farage.  But too many people assume that if one voted for Brexit, that they are Farage supporters and this is not the case.  Some voted due to their own racist tendencies and Farage merely did what every politician would do ie. gather some easy votes where he could.  But many voted for Brexit because they don't believe in the EU project.  I myself think the EU project is an utter failure and have no faith that it can be fixed and for this reason would have voted for Brexit.

 

The EU in its current form is a terrible thing both economically and socially.  I find it hard to believe that 52% of the people are anti immigration.  I think it has more to do with the way the EU governs *cough* for the people.  It's a clumsy organisation that lumbers from one problem to the next with no real plan on how to get Europe functioning in the post GFC environment.  Just look at the way the EU is behaving now that the referendum is over.  Instead of respecting democracy they are looking for ways to hurt England economically.  If anything, this will vindicate why many people voted for Brexit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/683739/EU-referendum-German-French-European-superstate-Brexit

 

the technocrats want to complete their vision of the Utopian EU by getting rid of the nation state.... get ready for some turbulent times

 

The scary thing is that for the EU to have any chance of functioning properly, it needs more power ie. political integration, which can only be gathered by the countries in the EU giving up more of their powers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Again you have no idea about the UK, so you shouldn't open your mouth. Each post cements your ignorance on the UK.

How many other rags was that found in? none.

The BBC as the other terrestrial broadcasters remained neutral. In fact depending on your political persuasion they are often called right wing or left wing.  Even the bloody Telegraph 

To call them left wing means you are either a moron, or unaware, or both!  I'm sure the left wing BBC you have dreamed up wouldn't have allowed Boris Johnson to interject and ignore Dimbleby with such flagrance. Oh wait you probably didn't even watch that, and are commentating from somewhere else in the world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It doesn't much matter whether you respect the way the global financial world works or not. The fact of the matter is that the cost of borrowing and doing business is going to be higher for the UK under such circumstances. In plain English, ordinary folks are going to be asked to contribute millions (or maybe billions) to this surcharge (through the taxes they are paying), when it didn't need to happen (or maybe should I say it's not going to accomplish what was promised. It was never going to.) Their taxes will now go to paying off higher interest rates instead of building schools and fixing roads.

 

Maybe you don't understand the meaning of the word 'power', that's why you use it so loosely. Mr.(dickhead) Farage is a political figure that influences public opinion with his bullcrap. Do you need more?

 

You may do what ever pleases you. If you get tired of cheering, try that ding-a-ling. That will surely please you (I'm talking from personal experience).

No I don't respect a global financial system that makes money out of thin air and lends it to governments with interest that is never created, its just one big debt cycle designed to keep nations in debt, its pretty much why every country is in debt, in plain English the UK contributes far more in

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 Those articles are worthless, it's like me quoting something from the official remain campaign which would be similarly worthless. If you want to debate this properly leave rubbish from the Express out of the argument. 

How is the UK going to improve out of the EU/EEA if it goes that way?

Also on the question of sovereignty, any comments on the House of Lords or the Monarch? 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I see you reduced your argument to the sort of limited vocabulary typically reserved for the Huffington Post and anarcho-communists who do nothing more than eek out cries of populist, natavist, xenophobic, misogynist, atavistic, fascist, and racist to any moron who believes in... democracy!

 

Over the course of thousands of years, we have come as a species to use single words when we try to describe a series of properties and attributes that might encompass the politico-socialogical tendencies of a person or group of people. We use the word 'racist' when referring to a description of a person instead of the much prolonged 'a person who believes that one's own racial group is superior or that a particular racial group is inferior to the others.'

I know you have a grasp of this concept, as exhibited by your use of words like 'anarcho-communists' and 'democracy.' Of course having a grasp of the word concept and understanding the meaning of the word are two different things.

You and the rest of the Nigel Farage fan club in these forums throw around the word 'democracy' like you understand what it actually means. You make references to Mussolini without actually knowing anything about history and how his implementation of  'democracy' brought him to power. Go back read how Hitler came to power through the ranks of the 'democratic' process.

Do you think that fascists rulers drop from the sky? Read your history, read the history of your people. Read the history of demagogues that started wars and destroyed peoples all in the name of patriotism.

Of course, for you and the rest of the fascist cheering members in these forums, history doesn't much matter, as long as gays and black people continue to be oppressed and enslaved. Oh, and did I forget women? Do they also belong barefoot in the kitchen?

Of course, once in a while you utter hollow words like 'freedom', 'democracy' without actually understanding what they mean.

Please. Go educate yourselves before you start a conversation in a public forum. Don't start talking about your rights, your guns and your dicks. Talk about your values as human beings, your ethics and moral obligations towards generations to come.

Edited by JimAdams
Link to comment
Share on other sites

European Parliament - directly elected

European Commission - executive branch, voted by the Parliament, just like most executives are in each member country, hence indirectly elected

European Council - Heads of State or Government, elected by their people (Monarchs are excluded; if they're head of a given state, it's the head of government that is the member)

A friend sent me this - not sure what is going on with the text. 

Edited by King_Katsouranis
  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1) Secret ballot of elected MEPs. This happens everywhere, like the no confidence vote yesterday.
2) Re Draghi, Mark Carney wasn't elected neither was Janet Yellen or any other central banker.
3) European council i.e. the 28 member states elected Tusk. Those representatives of the council elected by their own people.

FFS clutching at straws

Edited by King_Katsouranis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, people should have self-determination, and there's lots freedom in a state of nature as they say. (Except when there aren't good choices available...)

 

But, then people discover that larger societies and cooperation come with benefits. Of course, the devil is in the details as they say, but Britain was getting a great deal out of its membership in the EU. I understand that not everybody benefits equally, but on the whole it's been a positive for GB.

 

There was lots of misinformation about the Brexit. Those leaders who campaigned for it are now mumbling a different tune as to the huge benefits that Brits immediately (or long-term) would enjoy after the exit. One issue was immigration and free travel within the union, but illegal immigration wasn't GB's own problem; all the members had that. Also, GB wasn't a signatory of the Schengen Agreement (free, no passport travel among members). Plus, GB had own currency, etc.

 

Many Brits didn't fully understand the details of what the EU membership entailed. I'm not saying they didn't have the right to say they want out, but I also think the vote was based on misinformation and on many levels of dissatisfaction with own economic status, against globalization, against the economic elites, immigration and fear of refugees, the struggling middle, lower classes, etc.

 

As for important revisions, many constitutions require big majorities, on the theory that 50% +1 vote is a slim margin that can change from day to day.  In the US, 2/3 Congress (both chambers: House-Senate) must vote 2/3 to amend the constitution, plus 3/4 of states needed.............

 

This Brexit triggered lots of discussion about Greece.  I know we had a long and heated discussion last year on the topic, but let me reiterate my view that Greece outside the EU would be far worse. The country has demonstrated incompetence at every turn, and when the going was good it was not because Greece was isolated and left to its own devices.  Before you start cursing at me, just think of the systems and projects Greece has undertaken without foreign direction......   A few things come to my mind... tourism, the Olympics, the (gasp) Super League, elections, pollution, etc, etc....

 

I'm not in favor of foreign tutelage for Greece, because foreigners want to protect and advance their own interests. But, sometimes, irresponsible people need a good structure and supervision to recover. Greece needs to be more European to solve its problems. The terms are very harsh now, I think excessive, but if Greece is to change for the better, it's through the EU. Hopefully, there will be a "haircut" of the debt but Greece by-and-large is still steeped in corruption and inefficiency while blaming others for its mismanagement.

 

On a side note, there are lots of media talking about ..20 years since the death of Andreas. Well, he was in a unique position to do great things for his country but did great harm by setting Greece on a disastrous path 30 years in the making.

 

It could be said that Greeks themselves were always so fractious and warring that were not able to cooperate ever since the 1821 Revolution, they looked to the superpowers for leadership. Yes, the first Greek parties were... The British, French, Russian... It's like when the Greek teams were hiring foreign refs for their football games for the derbies.... No?

 

If the European leadership reads the Brexit as a warning sign that the middle classes should be the main beneficiaries of economic policies, Europe will emerge stronger. It may also benefit Greece in that the national debt should not be paid at the expense of killing the debtor. But, no matter what, Greece has to change its practices and they way it does business, and I believe it can be best done within the EU, and under supervision. I know this injures national pride, but...

_____

and now something fun:

 

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's the problem. We shouldn't have secret votes and unelected officials in administrative agencies which have been created and unconstitutionally given authority, authority taken from the proper bodies that are subject to democratic checks and balances (i.e., presentment). People are losing their voice, their natural rights. Look around you. We are surveilled without warrant. Look at how entrenched and unaccountable our national governments have become, let alone the EU.

The Brexit vote is a vote against political usurpation. It's a vote for auto-determination.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you and Jim appear to express the opinion that the British shouldn't even have voted on something they may never get a more appropriate chance to ever decide upon again and that all those people, the majority of the British public, are effectively akin to Nazi supporters voting Hitler into office. Is this accurate?

 I already told you they are elected. Tell me how they are unelected, you put your faith in the EC members in your own general elections, and MEPs through the European elections. The Democratic checks and balances exist. A vote has to have 2/3 support, or at least 65% of the population. In most matters the UK has a veto. So the fact is its hardly undemocratic. Loads of political parties around the world hold leadership elections .

I have no problem with this country of idiots voting. However, either side were not running an honest campaign on their numbers or points. Importantly, the leave campaign had no plan, for this reason the vote is pretty much a pointless sample of the average Brit out of London's racist values. The vote wasn't legally binding it was a consultative vote, so if its close it can feasibly ignored. Also when the margin is so close it doesn't necessarily indicate the country should take a strong Brexit stance. There are already doubts Article 50 won't be triggered, and that it being triggered can be subject to a high court challenge. It's a real mess at this point. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

At the end of the day, we can go back and forth on how democratic the EU is.  Maybe it's more democratic than we think (and probably more democratic than they'd like) but we'd be missing the point, which is that in reality it doesn't function democratically due to the unbalanced amount of influence Germany has over the EU.  Even France is now bullied by Germany these days.

 

As for having elected officials represent Greece (or any other country), what is the point ?  The discussions are not "democratic".  It's the EU (Germany) bossing the situation.  The EU has not covered itself in glory in the last few years and it's no surprise that many ordinary people look upon it with trepidation.

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

 

Many Brits didn't fully understand the details of what the EU membership entailed. I'm not saying they didn't have the right to say they want out, but I also think the vote was based on misinformation and on many levels of dissatisfaction with own economic status, against globalization, against the economic elites, immigration and fear of refugees, the struggling middle, lower classes, etc.

Is that not also the case for those that voted to stay in? Wasn't the bulk of media coverage in favour of staying in? Wasn't every single political party (besides UKIP) trying to persuade the public to vote remain? Yet you say that many Brits who voted out did so through a lack of understanding, which is exactly the same case nearly all political 'journalists' and the impartial(EU funded) BBC are making. 

The UK government even used taxpayers money to post to every house in the UK a leaflet detailing all the wonderful benefits of remaining, is it not patronising to suggest that those that voted out did so through ignorance or a lack of understanding? This is the media narrative we're hearing now in the UK, surprised to read that here also. 

Misinformation occurred on both sides, however the remain side had the bulk of the coverage.

  • Like it 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...