On the way to EURO 2008

[DUDE]

As a Greek, I don't consider myself even remotely comparable to Bulgarians, Albanians, Croats and southern Italians.  For the most part, all of these aformentioned ethinc groups -- apart from themselves harboring hatred for us -- are generally looked upon by the west with ambivilence, if not outright admiration in some instances. 

No my friend, their prejudice is directed exclusively at us.  Not so much Americans, but British and Canadians, which I assume Dale Johnson is by his use of the word "football" rather than "soccer."  Why do they hate us?  It's very simple....they can't dominate us.  We have what can only be described as Elliniko tharos.  We are not submissive people.  We come to their countries and force them to assimilate to our culture, rather than vice versa.  We are aggressive and proudly refuse to be pushed around.  And when we succeed where they can't, they simply cannot accept it.  The British have won 0 European championships They praise the premier league, but conveniently overlook that practically 75% is comprised of foreign players.  They criticized us left and right during and before the Olympics, but in the end they ate their words.  Lets see if the Olymics in Beijing or London (whose opening ceremony I'm guessing will be centered around some gay Elton John theme)will rival that of Athens in 04. 

If you ask me, I prefer their scorn rather than praise.  Lets take it as a compliment.

to western europeans we definitley are comparable. Greeks and Balkan/Mediteranean peoples are pretty similar in contrast to Western Europeans....

The bias I am talking about is of seeing us all as crude and uncivilized....

And again I feel like generally when its done by Western Europeans its art or culture, and when its done by Greeks or other Balkans its considered crude....food and wine being great examples there, Italian food is almost all peasant food, but its elite same with wines... Ex an identical Greek wine has a bad reputation, and sort of like the food and wines etc Italians got defensive football labeled as an art......we got shunned.....for the exact same thing. just like all their village food and wine is art and elegant, but crude when its from Greeks (even when its virtually exact same things)....

Whatever this isnt an ethnic arguement, my point is weve been categorized with a people they always seem to have a disdain for in terms of region......

But you are probably right, its definitly amplified because we WON it...

But why when Senegal makes a big run every body is yay Senegal, or look at USA can play football, but when Greece wins its a fluke (as opposed to a sign like LOOK, Greece is a solid european footballing nation) I mean even our u-19 is a European finalist !!! hello europe Greece is on the footballing map and we do deserve to be there.

Whatever happens, I hope its a kick in the teeth to all these people who wont drop the hate... I hope the leontaria make us proud again, and shouldnt have to prove that theyre good enough to be there because they really have repeatedly....

I have to say I agree with as5664, we are nothing like the other Balkan countries or the Turks. Not cuturally, not in terms of appearance, not linguistically, etc. In fact we are much more like Italians, Portuguese or Spaniards. Having said that I also belive that Greek culture is unique in many respects.

Anyway, I can see these sorts of convos degenerating into politics so let's all drop it guys. I will say though that it is clear that Greek acheivements in football haven't received the praise they deserve. We need to put in another great run (at least semi finals) at this tournament to demand that respect.

Personally I think we'll go out in the group stage :( But let's all hope that the boys prove us wrong.

[Hellene]

I must say i agree with all the comments posted...regarding ellines compared to other european and balkan people and cultures...history, ethnicity, culture and religion are some of my keen past times (when i have a chance to read)..

Hellenes, greeks or ellines are unique in that we have the longest continuity of indo european language on the continent...we actual colonised and hellenised most of present day turkey and southern italy, not to mention parts of france, black sea etc..

everything the english, germans, and americans preach, teach and practice to this day is greek from democracy, to thought, to science, maths, ethics, morals....they were all known as barbarians until contact was made with greeks/hellenes...barbarians is thought to have derived from the greeks calling the non greeks "bar bar" because thats all they could say until we actually took them into our lyceums and academies...

anyway we could be here until the cows come home....roman empire was built on greek fundamentals and government, elite and educated of rome spoke only greek....actually anyone that sought education in rome had to have a greek teacher...

what does this all mean? lets be proud of our culture, language and history to dictate our future....zhto to ethnos, zhto h patrida, o laos kai h istoria mas...

ADE RE PALIKARIA......MOLON LABE!!!

[plato-ny]

Who will win Euro 2008?

Final bus slogans for all teams

[drakos13]

I have to say I agree with as5664, we are nothing like the other Balkan countries or the Turks. Not cuturally, not in terms of appearance, not linguistically, etc. In fact we are much more like Italians, Portuguese or Spaniards. Having said that I also belive that Greek culture is unique in many respects.

Anyway, I can see these sorts of convos degenerating into politics so let's all drop it guys. I will say though that it is clear that Greek acheivements in football haven't received the praise they deserve. We need to put in another great run (at least semi finals) at this tournament to demand that respect.

Personally I think we'll go out in the group stage  :( But let's all hope that the boys prove us wrong.

No we are actually quite similar. We have far more in common with Southern Albanians and Aegean Turks etc and other neighboring peoples than we do Portuguese who we have almost nothing in common with - I mean it makes sense, were from the same region which was all mixed back in the middle ages anyways. Culturally, in CONTRAST to western european cultures, we are similar. We are a Balkan people- who would have guessed by our geography and common history that wed have common things with other people in the region man.....Its not that just these regions influenced us, but also these regions were very Greek influenced themselves too..

My point was just that we were categorized with these others and they generally dont like us.....Im saying this just from my experiences and what I see, and also the way our diaspora communities in Europe are different but also very similar to each other.

And yes we are very similar to each other, of course Greece is very unique, but not everything culturally in Greece is unique to Greece, a lot is just unique to the region.

DUDE - we are nothing like Balkan countries or the Turks is something you want to beleive maybe....reality is another story sorry file....we have plenty in common with all our neighbors, and yes Turkey (Aegean/Western part) more so than the others. I mean 1.5 million Greeks came from that region, the 2 biggest empires that ruled over us in the last 2000 years are based out of that region - how are we not going to be at all similar???

Anywyas Its got nothing to do with football lets move on..

[manifest777]

:box:

Who cares what people think of us... Let's make a difference on the pitch. We won the Euro basket twice, we won the Euro Football competition on our second participation (we are fast learners), we won medals in the Olympics. For a small country we are able to do fantastic things and we have HEART. Let's show the same values to our detractors, let them see their own foolishness. We should DO and not talk like they do. Watch England, they talk, talk and did not qualify... Otto tought our players a great lesson.: Do not fear any one, believe in our strenghs whatever they are ! And look what we achieved on our second attempt in Euro competition. People tend to see you the way you see yourself...So let's win our first match against Sweden and we will have all the cards in our hand to pass the group stage. Our players are what they are, but playing with HEART together like they did in 2004 they can transcent their weeknesses and achieve their dreams whatever they are.

GO GREECE !! :gr:

[mangas21]

i have made this point before...that rehangel's greatest accomplishment was to simply change the mentality of the team...remember: its NOT who is the best team..its who is best ON THAT DAY....

for the longest time all you ever heard was "we lost but we played well".......well if u lost you did not play well....PERIOD....Greece has fielded much more individually talented players in the past....but look at the results they ussed to get.....now its "one for all, and all for one" or "we first, me second", or "sum of the whole is more than the individual parts"...or any other cheesy way you want to say it....but it remains true...that once every greek player walked onto that field BELIEVING they can win, that they are as good as anyone else, then they not only impose their will and strengths on the other team, but the opposition now must take them more sriously becasue THEY THEMSELVES TAKE THEIR GAME MORE SERIOUSLY....

this has been proven time and time again in psyco-analytic studies and sports performance forums..there is a physical change that takes place in teh body that results from outside stimuli...in fact a study was done to explai why the home teams seem to win much more often than when they are way, and part of the findings suggests increases in metabolic rates, adrelanin and testaserone levels....

i digress...but the point is the greek team now does not feel inferior on the pitch...and THAT is the main differnece...add playing through out europe, better training methods, etc...and what you have is the recipe for success....it still must be implemented of course, but getting the most out of your own talent is itslef a talent....and when others see tht you take yourself and your game seriously, then they must adjust THEIR focus to meet your energy level, tactics, and execution..

this is all very very subtle stuff....and it explains, why Greece was dismissed in 04 so easily, despite their positive showings....

now what does that mean for this tournament? i have no clue....jajajajajajaj...

i am afraid to say that i would not be surprised if they failed to qualify for the next round....but similarly, I would not be surprised if they made the final four either....

winning it again is virtually impossible since it would be unprecedented and has not been done by even the "well established big teams".....

but my prediction: prior to the start of the tournament:

advance first stage: 60%

second stage: 40%

third stage: 25%

if they get through to the final eight, then the odds of advsancing to the final four go up a little......

i bleed blue and white, but i am also realistic....if we wnt to be considered a powerhouse footballing nation and prove that 2004 was not a fluke, then a final four showing is a must......

cant wait for this friggin' thing to begin !!!!!!

[Euro2004]

Drakos: The Greeks I know and I, and the ones I associate with and visit every year on holiday are nothing like the other peoples in the Balkans or in Turkey. Yes we have certain shared aspects like some foods, but so do the Brits and the Indians like Curry. Does that make them the same? And I also disagree that we're viewed upon in the same way as other Balkan nations. The British media does not portray us in the same light as the Turks or Croats for example. The nature of globalization means that everyone influences everyone, and as people we all do (or should) share fundamental human values, but calling us the same in really strecthing it.

However I also disagree with as5664. Many in the West dislike us not because we are uncontrollable, the issue is political imo. However this is comkpletely independent of football. In the UK, American footballers do not get the respect they deserve, does that mean that the Brits hate the Americans too? They don't rate us because we've generally done nothing in international football (except for Euro 2004) and apart from Giannakopoulos our players haven't really taken Europe by storm.

Consider this:

Machlas was a phenomenal goalscorer, but when he got his big move to Ajax it didn't work out.

Donis was brilliant for PAO but in the Premiership he flopped. Then he moved to Huddersfield (!) and was labelled as the worst player for them, EVER! :blink:

Zagorakis is a legend for us, but he was nothing better than "good" while at Leceister.

Samaras was a huge signing for Man City and he was terrible.

Dabizas was fantastic in his first couple of years, but then he deteriorated into the worst defender in the league.

Kapsis was great at Euro 2004 but flopped at Bordeaux.

Seitaridis was probably the best right back in Europe in 2004 and instead of proving himself, he became a distinctly average.

Chalkias and Skopelitis were arguably the worst signings ever in the Premiership.

Vryzas was technically gifted but not a goalscorer.

Kyrgiakos had a great first year at Rangers and a woeful second and his contract was not extended.

Karagounis was always a good player but he spent most of his time at Inter on the bench, as did Choutos.

Tavlaridis was released by Arsenal, he went on to do quite well at Lille before taking a step down to St. Ettiene and is an average European defender at best.

And the list goes on...

These are the reasons Greek football isn't rated. We need another good run at the Euro, semi-finals at least, and we need our exports to do well. If Papastathopoulos, Torosidis and whoever else is espected to move on this year do not perform then the stereotype will be reinforced. We NEED a good Euro run!

[drakos13]

Drakos:  The Greeks I know and I, and the ones I associate with and visit every year on holiday are nothing like the other peoples in the Balkans or in Turkey. Yes we have certain shared aspects like some foods, but so do the Brits and the Indians like Curry. Does that make them the same? And I also disagree that we're viewed upon in the same way as other Balkan nations. The British media does not portray us in the same light as the Turks or Croats for example. The nature of globalization means that everyone influences everyone, and as people we all do (or should) share fundamental human values, but calling us the same in really strecthing it.

thats a very silly comparison man Brits and Indians because they eat curry. Do the brits and indians have similar music, dances, expressions, or even in some cases looks? do they share words, are they neighbors under the same ruling powers for the last 2300 years?

Nobody is saying the same. If we were the same, we obviously wouldnt have our own nations now wouldnt we - similar, YES. I beleive certain regions share particular similarities with each other, and tend to get categorized/confused with other neighboring nations by the average Joe or average Fritz or average Jose in Spain.....

Im not saying that we are the same thing, I am saying we are simliar peoples. Every people has substantial similarities with its neighbor in europe. Its just a fact and effect of such large and spread diversity in europe throughout the ages....

And if you think about it from a German or Brits eyes, we are, of course we are very similar, there have been the same 3 empires ruling over both of us since time (Alexander, Roman(aka Byzantine) , and Ottoman) and think about it MAKES SENSE. Greece and west/Anatolia since forever have been similar regions. Its many similar histories, not only folklore traditions and costumes, music, words, landscapes, dances, foods, even stupid superstitions like the kako mati - thats going to get us put in the same category when its contrasted with Western European nations. I mean how does that not make sense? People are their own and whoever they want to be but countries that have been under the same spheres of influence and native to the same reigons are going to have similarities...

I know we have enough differences along with our similarities.... but your average West European isnt very well informed of Eastern Europe/Balkans and uses the few things they see and know about these people are very similar from their eyes, so were 'categorized' the same by others.....

[mangas21]

paidia, den pan na g*****oun oli.....

besides where do mostly all their women go for vacation and to have a good time? B)

[drakos13]

well that would be Greece, Turkey and Croatia and Souther Italy :LOL:

[mangas21]

exactly.....

ali doulia den ehome na akoume tis m*****es olonon....a'sto dialo apo tho.......

on the soccer field....beat us, we respect it....if not shut the fck up and stop acitng like little bitches....

[Euro2004]

thats a very silly comparison man Brits and Indians because they eat curry. Do the brits and indians have similar music, dances, expressions, or even in some cases looks? do they share words, are they neighbors under the same ruling powers for the last 2300 years?

Nobody is saying the same. If we were the same, we obviously wouldnt have our own nations now wouldnt we - similar, YES. I beleive certain regions share particular similarities with each other, and tend to get categorized/confused with other neighboring nations by the average Joe or average Fritz or average Jose in Spain.....

Im not saying that we are the same thing, I am saying we are simliar peoples. Every people has substantial similarities with its neighbor in europe. Its just a fact and effect of such large and spread diversity in europe throughout the ages....

And if you think about it from a German or Brits eyes, we are, of course we are very similar, there have been the same 3 empires ruling over both of us since time (Alexander, Roman(aka Byzantine) , and Ottoman) and think about it MAKES SENSE. Greece and west/Anatolia since forever have been similar regions. Its many similar histories, not only folklore traditions and costumes, music, words, landscapes, dances, foods, even stupid superstitions like the kako mati - thats going to get us put in the same category when its contrasted with Western European nations. I mean how does that not make sense? People are their own and whoever they want to be but countries that have been under the same spheres of influence and native to the same reigons are going to have similarities...

I know we have enough differences along with our similarities.... but your average West European isnt very well informed of Eastern Europe/Balkans and uses the few things they see and know about these people are very similar from their eyes, so were 'categorized' the same by others.....

The "curry" was merely one example... India and Britain are linked in many ways. Indian restaurants are the most successful in the UK and Chicken Tikka Masala is an Anglo-Indian invention.

And yes, music has also become quite intertwined in some cases. There are Anglo-Indian artists that combine English lyrics and beats with Indian rhythms such as Raghav, Bhangra, Punjabi MC, Jay Sean, etc.

This song by Raghav went to No.1 in the UK charts as did many of his other songs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKaBgI3U9Io...feature=related

And yes their history is also intertwined through the British Empire, which also links them in sports, i.e. cricket. The Brits were highly involved in India from the Seventeenth Century until the 20th and even now they have key links. So if India and Britain is a silly link, so is Greece and Croatia or Greece and Turkey. Under the Ottomans each community was seperate so although there were influences such as the ones mentioned they are not so similar that they are perceived in the same boat, as the Indians and Brits are not. The Cold War was also a major factor in shaping cultures and Greece was in the West while the rest of the Balkans fell under the Soviet realm. That further diverged the cultures. And the average Joe in the UK or Germany certainly doesn't associate Greece with Croatia, Albania, Serbia, Turkey, etc.

So we are not underrated because they undermine us as they do our neighbours. In fact, the British media rarely undermines Croatia, Turkey, Albania, etc, so claiming they treat us the same is ridiculous. We are underrated because our football performance warrants us being considered rubbish I'm afraid. We have been inept in many cases other than in Euro 2004 and some sporadic examples of good CL showings by our clubs. If we want to gain respect we have to earn it. The only way to earn it is by performing consistently!

[mangas21]

If we want to gain respect we have to earn it. The only way to earn it is by performing consistently!

absolutely.....we cant have it both ways.....one euro win (albeit a remarkable achievement) does not make a powerhouse foorballing nation......but remember, although you can create physical/economic/territorial quasi-intergration through various degrees of legislation, you can NEVER legislate people's attitudes and pre-dispositions.....

so, although i agree with the statement highlighted above 100%, no amount of good results will serve to change the biases and prejudices of a certain percentage closed minded, stubborn, small intelects.........and you know that is not such a bad thing either actually..........BUT the distinction should be love of one's own culture, NOT hatred or disdain of another's.......its a fine line that many cant see or dont care to.......

[NikosVazelas]

Drakos: The Greeks I know and I, and the ones I associate with and visit every year on holiday are nothing like the other peoples in the Balkans or in Turkey. Yes we have certain shared aspects like some foods, but so do the Brits and the Indians like Curry. Does that make them the same? And I also disagree that we're viewed upon in the same way as other Balkan nations. The British media does not portray us in the same light as the Turks or Croats for example. The nature of globalization means that everyone influences everyone, and as people we all do (or should) share fundamental human values, but calling us the same in really strecthing it.

However I also disagree with as5664. Many in the West dislike us not because we are uncontrollable, the issue is political imo. However this is comkpletely independent of football. In the UK, American footballers do not get the respect they deserve, does that mean that the Brits hate the Americans too? They don't rate us because we've generally done nothing in international football (except for Euro 2004) and apart from Giannakopoulos our players haven't really taken Europe by storm.

Consider this:

Machlas was a phenomenal goalscorer, but when he got his big move to Ajax it didn't work out.

Donis was brilliant for PAO but in the Premiership he flopped. Then he moved to Huddersfield (!) and was labelled as the worst player for them, EVER! :blink:

Zagorakis is a legend for us, but he was nothing better than "good" while at Leceister.

Samaras was a huge signing for Man City and he was terrible.

Dabizas was fantastic in his first couple of years, but then he deteriorated into the worst defender in the league.

Kapsis was great at Euro 2004 but flopped at Bordeaux.

Seitaridis was probably the best right back in Europe in 2004 and instead of proving himself, he became a distinctly average.

Chalkias and Skopelitis were arguably the worst signings ever in the Premiership.

Vryzas was technically gifted but not a goalscorer.

Kyrgiakos had a great first year at Rangers and a woeful second and his contract was not extended.

Karagounis was always a good player but he spent most of his time at Inter on the bench, as did Choutos.

Tavlaridis was released by Arsenal, he went on to do quite well at Lille before taking a step down to St. Ettiene and is an average European defender at best.

And the list goes on...

These are the reasons Greek football isn't rated. We need another good run at the Euro, semi-finals at least, and we need our exports to do well. If Papastathopoulos, Torosidis and whoever else is espected to move on this year do not perform then the stereotype will be reinforced. We NEED a good Euro run!

Yes but what about Gekas winning the golden boot in germany last year. 27 years old.

Charisteas has bounced around alot but everywhere he has played he has scored goals.

Amanitidis is one of the highest rated AM in germany. 26 years old

Kyrgiakos is the best Defender in Germany hands down. He is also 27.

Stelios had three great seasons with bolton but the same thing with him has happened with many of the players u mentioned above. They left greece TOOOOOOOOOOO late.

Giourkas has had a fw bad seasons but all this is due to his poor decision to go to russia to play the year following the euro, after Porto and lets not forget he missed 3 months with a serious injury this season. he is still 27.

Lets not forget Elefteropoulos who is playign regular football in Italy as a keeper, THE COUNTRY MOST KNOWN FOR RAISING QUALITY keepers.

Fyssas had 2 good years in scotland but he also left greece too late.

Basinas, who also left at age 30, played regular football for a mediocre football organization.

Katsouranis is prob one of the best DM in portugal and is a key member for a Benfica side.

You mention Samaras but he signed at Man city at 20 years old. he scored 9 goals in his first 17 appearances. He is young and inconsistent but he is still 23. At celtic he scored 6 goals playing a handful of minutes and can be a great striker if he stays in shape and GETS THE HUNGER FOR SCORING.

Kara also left at 28 instead of 24 or 25 and played for Inter and Benfica. not Salzburg or Genk. No offence to fans of those teams.

The truth is, Greece took forever in letting players transfer out of greece. if u take into consideration thaqt Donis was the first player to leave greece for the premiership at age 31 in 1996, needless to say we are far behind.

But the future looks promising. Players like Ninis and papastathopoulos are targets for many big name clubs in england and abroad.

It takes one of these signings to flourish in a higher level to make greek prospects something to be taken more seriously by scouts and teams.

If Ninis goes out and does great in the next 4 or 5 years and is transfered for something like 8 or 9 million, watch more and more greek prospects being signed at younger ages and having the chances to make a career abroad.

OBVIOUSLY IT DOESNT HELP WHEN THE BIGGEST TEAM TROPHY WISE IN GREECE HAS A SHOWN A DISGUSTING RECORD OF PRODUCING YOUNG GREEK TALENT. INSTEAD OF LETTING PLAYERS PLAY FROM SOME HORIO IN GREECE, THEY GO OUT ANS SIGN OTHER COUNTRIES XORIANOI AND IN NO WAY HELP THE PRGORESS OF OUR GREEK ACADEMIES.

[Euro2004]

error

[Euro2004]

Yes but what about Gekas winning the golden boot in germany last year. 27 years old.

He did very well, but this year he didn't play enough. For him to prove he's a top European striker he has to win the topscorer award next year and the year after (or at least get close). Kevin Philips & James Beattie also had good seasons in the Premiership, where are they now? To be a top striker you have to score 20 plus goals every year.

Charisteas has bounced around alot but everywhere he has played he has scored goals.

Has he? He's never scored more than 9 goals in a season. He's goal tally is on a par with that of goal-scoring defenders.

Amanitidis is one of the highest rated AM in germany. 26 years old

No, he's one of the most respected and loved for his work-rate and passion. But he's certainly not considered one of the best attacking-midfielders/strikers in the league. He's not considered to be in the same league as Ribery (Bayern), Diego (Weder), Barnetta (Leverkusen), etc.

Kyrgiakos is the best Defender in Germany hands down. He is also 27.

I too rate him highly, but saying he's the best defender in Germany is a big statement. He's available on a free transfer now, why aren't Bayern or Weder fighting over him? If it was Lucio or Demichelis for example that were available for free there'd be a riot to capture their services. Kyrgiakos is world-class when he is on form, but when he's not he's poor.

Stelios had three great seasons with bolton but the same thing with him has happened with many of the players u mentioned above. They left greece TOOOOOOOOOOO late.

I agree. I'm not saying we don't produce talent, but whatever the reason they don't perform abroad. Torosidis should have left Greece a year ago. Papastathopoulos must leave now. Basinas should have left 7 years ago, etc. Because staying in Greece stunts their development. However this is a different issue. The fact remains that our players don't perform abroad. Stelios is an exception.

Giourkas has had a fw bad seasons but all this is due to his poor decision to go to russia to play the year following the euro, after Porto and lets not forget he missed 3 months with a serious injury this season. he is still 27.

Porto fans will tell you they were disappointed with his performances there. THEN he went to Russia kai katastrefike. Again, it's irrelevant as to why he flopped, the fact is he did. After all we are talking about the perception of greek footbal here.

Lets not forget Elefteropoulos who is playign regular football in Italy as a keeper, THE COUNTRY MOST KNOWN FOR RAISING QUALITY keepers.

Manninger has the no.1 spot at Sienna not Ele. But even if he did establish himself as no.1, Sienna is hardly the sought of club that will make Europe sit up and notice Greek talent.

Fyssas had 2 good years in scotland but he also left greece too late.

Scottish league is a step down from Greece.

Katsouranis is prob one of the best DM in portugal and is a key member for a Benfica side.

Yes, he's a good player.

You mention Samaras but he signed at Man city at 20 years old. he scored 9 goals in his first 17 appearances. He is young and inconsistent but he is still 23. At celtic he scored 6 goals playing a handful of minutes and can be a great striker if he stays in shape and GETS THE HUNGER FOR SCORING.

Who cares how old he was? He was billed as Greece's hottest talent and cost

[drakos13]

thats a very silly comparison man Brits and Indians because they eat curry. Do the brits and indians have similar music, dances, expressions, or even in some cases looks? do they share words, are they neighbors under the same ruling powers for the last 2300 years?

Nobody is saying the same. If we were the same, we obviously wouldnt have our own nations now wouldnt we - similar, YES. I beleive certain regions share particular similarities with each other, and tend to get categorized/confused with other neighboring nations by the average Joe or average Fritz or average Jose in Spain.....

Im not saying that we are the same thing, I am saying we are simliar peoples. Every people has substantial similarities with its neighbor in europe. Its just a fact and effect of such large and spread diversity in europe throughout the ages....

And if you think about it from a German or Brits eyes,  we are, of course we are very  similar, there have been the same 3 empires ruling over both of us since time (Alexander, Roman(aka Byzantine) , and Ottoman) and think about it MAKES SENSE.  Greece and west/Anatolia since forever have been similar regions. Its many similar histories, not only folklore traditions and costumes, music, words, landscapes, dances, foods, even stupid superstitions like the kako mati - thats going to get us put in the same category when its contrasted with Western European nations.  I mean how does that not make sense? People are their own and whoever they want to be but countries that have been under the same spheres of influence and native to the same reigons are going to have similarities...

I know we have enough differences along with our similarities.... but your average West European isnt very well informed of Eastern Europe/Balkans and uses the few things they see and know about these people are very similar from their eyes, so were 'categorized' the same by others.....

The "curry" was merely one example... India and Britain are linked in many ways. Indian restaurants are the most successful in the UK and Chicken Tikka Masala is an Anglo-Indian invention.

And yes, music has also become quite intertwined in some cases. There are Anglo-Indian artists that combine English lyrics and beats with Indian rhythms such as Raghav, Bhangra, Punjabi MC, Jay Sean, etc.

This song by Raghav went to No.1 in the UK charts as did many of his other songs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKaBgI3U9Io...feature=related

And yes their history is also intertwined through the British Empire, which also links them in sports, i.e. cricket. The Brits were highly involved in India from the Seventeenth Century until the 20th and even now they have key links. So if India and Britain is a silly link, so is Greece and Croatia or Greece and Turkey. Under the Ottomans each community was seperate so although there were influences such as the ones mentioned they are not so similar that they are perceived in the same boat, as the Indians and Brits are not. The Cold War was also a major factor in shaping cultures and Greece was in the West while the rest of the Balkans fell under the Soviet realm. That further diverged the cultures. And the average Joe in the UK or Germany certainly doesn't associate Greece with Croatia, Albania, Serbia, Turkey, etc.

So we are not underrated because they undermine us as they do our neighbours. In fact, the British media rarely undermines Croatia, Turkey, Albania, etc, so claiming they treat us the same is ridiculous. We are underrated because our football performance warrants us being considered rubbish I'm afraid. We have been inept in many cases other than in Euro 2004 and some sporadic examples of good CL showings by our clubs. If we want to gain respect we have to earn it. The only way to earn it is by performing consistently!

Greeks and Turks (Anatolians) are incredibly closer in history than Brits and Indans. You know that too. Im not talking of globalized aspects todays world, like that in England a Indian pop singer won Super Idol, or Curry is a big favourite for English couples to go out and eat in downtown Chelsea- thats really totally different......Im talking about the many ethnic national traditions, that are considered and treated as uniquley ethnic in our countries are shared due to history, and that puts us in the same BROADER category.... Fact is we do have tons of similarities, from lifestyle, expressions, folklore, music, phrases, superstitions and customs family life, food/dining habbits, in Aegean Turkey they look like us, - hell even ships and architecture, mustaches and even as football fans were often compared for fanaticsm... The average joe in Europe does tend to categorize us together....... I say it because Ive had to listen much milder versions of how they categorize us together..... anyways, this is for another forum or discussion. If anybody wants to continue this, I suggest opening up in the Non Sports forums a topic, and Ill continue to your repsonse there if you like ----- for the rest on this lets just keep to football/football media......

As for football and media.....

the Brits i know they dont like us or our neighbors, and I assume they dont like Greece for that and take it out on us. Too many ignorant things said about Greece from them to convince me otherwise. Im guessing they dont like us because they never seem to like anybody from our region, and seeing how were so categorized with other peoples they tend not to like... I assume it carrys over.

Maybe your right about our football...though I definitly think were getting some sort of special treatment and nastiness towards us...

I mean Croatia has only 1 claim to fame and theyre "on the footballing map" and respected and not harassed..... they actually have the worst club football out of all respectable footballing nation (national teams).....Turkey too, made the single handed least impressive 3rd place run in WC history beating and tieing the worst opponents imaginable for a world cup... we are always in CL, we sometimes make runs, we make it tough for opponents----- we even outplay the jolly old English in Old Trafford and still no respect....then we go on 15 game winning streaks, win the European Cup, score tons of goals in Qualifying (more than any other team, and more points) and still not a hint of respect.....theres got to be something up rather than "were rubbish" because Im not buying it. Weve escalated a full two level.....since Rehagel.....all of a sudden we are competing and beating teams like Czech, Denmark, France, Portugal, Turkey, Norway, Spain, Ukraine, and still nothing?

[mangas21]

getting to the top is easier than staying on top...this tournament will go along way towards continuing to build whatever credibility we all seem to think is not coming our way....

we cant win here..if we get out of our group, then it was expected becuase everyone seems to think its an easy group....if we dont, well then its the same old Greece...its a no win situation....until we beat italy, germany, spain, france (again), holland, we wont get the respect...thats why in my eyes anything less than a final four showing wont help our credibility in the court of public soccer opinion....

[as5664]

Drakos: The Greeks I know and I, and the ones I associate with and visit every year on holiday are nothing like the other peoples in the Balkans or in Turkey. Yes we have certain shared aspects like some foods, but so do the Brits and the Indians like Curry. Does that make them the same? And I also disagree that we're viewed upon in the same way as other Balkan nations. The British media does not portray us in the same light as the Turks or Croats for example. The nature of globalization means that everyone influences everyone, and as people we all do (or should) share fundamental human values, but calling us the same in really strecthing it.

However I also disagree with as5664. Many in the West dislike us not because we are uncontrollable, the issue is political imo. However this is comkpletely independent of football. In the UK, American footballers do not get the respect they deserve, does that mean that the Brits hate the Americans too? They don't rate us because we've generally done nothing in international football (except for Euro 2004) and apart from Giannakopoulos our players haven't really taken Europe by storm.

Consider this:

Machlas was a phenomenal goalscorer, but when he got his big move to Ajax it didn't work out.

Donis was brilliant for PAO but in the Premiership he flopped. Then he moved to Huddersfield (!) and was labelled as the worst player for them, EVER! :blink:

Zagorakis is a legend for us, but he was nothing better than "good" while at Leceister.

Samaras was a huge signing for Man City and he was terrible.

Dabizas was fantastic in his first couple of years, but then he deteriorated into the worst defender in the league.

Kapsis was great at Euro 2004 but flopped at Bordeaux.

Seitaridis was probably the best right back in Europe in 2004 and instead of proving himself, he became a distinctly average.

Chalkias and Skopelitis were arguably the worst signings ever in the Premiership.

Vryzas was technically gifted but not a goalscorer.

Kyrgiakos had a great first year at Rangers and a woeful second and his contract was not extended.

Karagounis was always a good player but he spent most of his time at Inter on the bench, as did Choutos.

Tavlaridis was released by Arsenal, he went on to do quite well at Lille before taking a step down to St. Ettiene and is an average European defender at best.

And the list goes on...

These are the reasons Greek football isn't rated. We need another good run at the Euro, semi-finals at least, and we need our exports to do well. If Papastathopoulos, Torosidis and whoever else is espected to move on this year do not perform then the stereotype will be reinforced. We NEED a good Euro run!

Look, no matter what, we ( a nation of 10.5 million) won a MAJOR competition against the toughest opponents in the world -- setting a number of records in the process -- all while beating one of those highly rated teams with succesful exports twice in their own backyard.

The fact that our exports have given "mediocre" perfomances (the problem being lack of playing time, IMO, and not with their abilities) should in fact underscore the success in 2004 and emphasize our potential. No one ever said we were the best in Europe, but many of these commentators insist on making us the worst who rely on cheap tactics and freakish luck.

Regardless of what the English have to say, however, it takes more than "crude defensive tactics" to win a Euro. Yes, we played defensively in many instances. But so have many other teams, and under better circumstances and against easier opposition. Look at Turkey, the Brits praised them endlessly over their third place run during the WC. And they continue to praise them to this day. Did they have to play France, Spain, Portugal, Czech Republic? No, they beat China, lost to Brazil, tied with Costa Rica, and advanced based on a single goal deficit. Then they took fantastic 1-0 wins against Senegal and Japan :o The same goes for Denmark. Since 92, they have done nothing, yet they receive the most praise--definitely more than us.

I'm not saying we deserve undue admiration, nor that we are beyond criticism. But I do feel that much of the criticism leveled against us is often unfair. Like I said, it's not just soccer. Look at the Olympics, our hosting of the champions league, our legal system and their drunkard visitors.

Even if we don't have a good Euro run, what have the English done??? We have nothing to prove to them or anyone else. Such a wealthy soccer nation, and not one Euro. Same with Spain (past 4 decades) and Portugal. If we had their money and soccer infrastructure, we would be the unrivaled # 1 in Europe.

[as5664]

Oops, I didn't realize Drakos13 made a similar argument above.... :rolleyes:

[Euro2004]

Drakos:  The Greeks I know and I, and the ones I associate with and visit every year on holiday are nothing like the other peoples in the Balkans or in Turkey. Yes we have certain shared aspects like some foods, but so do the Brits and the Indians like Curry. Does that make them the same? And I also disagree that we're viewed upon in the same way as other Balkan nations. The British media does not portray us in the same light as the Turks or Croats for example. The nature of globalization means that everyone influences everyone, and as people we all do (or should) share fundamental human values, but calling us the same in really strecthing it.

However I also disagree with as5664. Many in the West dislike us not because we are uncontrollable, the issue is political imo. However this is comkpletely independent of football. In the UK, American footballers do not get the respect they deserve, does that mean that the Brits hate the Americans too? They don't rate us because we've generally done nothing in international football (except for Euro 2004) and apart from Giannakopoulos our players haven't really taken Europe by storm. 

Consider this:

Machlas was a phenomenal goalscorer, but when he got his big move to Ajax it didn't work out.

Donis was brilliant for PAO but in the Premiership he flopped. Then he moved to Huddersfield (!) and was labelled as the worst player for them, EVER!  :blink:

Zagorakis is a legend for us, but he was nothing better than "good" while at Leceister.

Samaras was a huge signing for Man City and he was terrible.

Dabizas was fantastic in his first couple of years, but then he deteriorated into the worst defender in the league.

Kapsis was great at Euro 2004 but flopped at Bordeaux.

Seitaridis was probably the best right back in Europe in 2004 and instead of proving himself, he became a distinctly average.

Chalkias and Skopelitis were arguably the worst signings ever in the Premiership.

Vryzas was technically gifted but not a goalscorer.

Kyrgiakos had a great first year at Rangers and a woeful second and his contract was not extended.

Karagounis was always a good player but he spent most of his time at Inter on the bench, as did Choutos.

Tavlaridis was released by Arsenal, he went on to do quite well at Lille before taking a step down to St. Ettiene and is an average European defender at best.

And the list goes on...

These are the reasons Greek football isn't rated. We need another good run at the Euro, semi-finals at least, and we need our exports to do well. If Papastathopoulos, Torosidis and whoever else is espected to move on this year do not perform then the stereotype will be reinforced. We NEED a good Euro run!

Look, no matter what, we ( a nation of 10.5 million) won a MAJOR competition against the toughest opponents in the world -- setting a number of records in the process -- all while beating one of those highly rated teams with succesful exports twice in their own backyard.

The fact that our exports have given "mediocre" perfomances (the problem being lack of playing time, IMO, and not with their abilities) should in fact underscore the success in 2004 and emphasize our potential. No one ever said we were the best in Europe, but many of these commentators insist on making us the worst who rely on cheap tactics and freakish luck.

Regardless of what the English have to say, however, it takes more than "crude defensive tactics" to win a Euro. Yes, we played defensively in many instances. But so have many other teams, and under better circumstances and against easier opposition. Look at Turkey, the Brits praised them endlessly over their third place run during the WC. And they continue to praise them to this day. Did they have to play France, Spain, Portugal, Czech Republic? No, they beat China, lost to Brazil, tied with Costa Rica, and advanced based on a single goal deficit. Then they took fantastic 1-0 wins against Senegal and Japan :o The same goes for Denmark. Since 92, they have done nothing, yet they receive the most praise--definitely more than us.

I'm not saying we deserve undue admiration, nor that we are beyond criticism. But I do feel that much of the criticism leveled against us is often unfair. Like I said, it's not just soccer. Look at the Olympics, our hosting of the champions league, our legal system and their drunkard visitors.

Even if we don't have a good Euro run, what have the English done??? We have nothing to prove to them or anyone else. Such a wealthy soccer nation, and not one Euro. Same with Spain (past 4 decades) and Portugal. If we had their money and soccer infrastructure, we would be the unrivaled # 1 in Europe.

This merely reinforces my point and undermines Drakos'. If we were all catergorised under the same banner in the Balkans and with Turkey then the English media would undermine all our acheivements. Instead they do not undermine Turkey or Croatia or whoever else in that region. This means that Drakos' claim that: the British (and Western) media undermines Greek football because they dislike the Balkans and Western Anatolia has no basis.

I am basically saying that we have more in common with Italians than we do with Croatians or Turks. Drakos may not think so but anyone that's been to, or mixes with people from those countries will probably agree with me. The Balkan nations have more in common with other Eastern European countries, like Russia, Latvia, Lithuania, etc. While the Turks and Greeks may share some similarites, so do the Indians and Brits. The similarities we have are similarities that we also have with the mediterranean countries and he exagerates them. So as you say our football is undermined while our neighbours' isn't. In my opinion it is clear that Drakos' argument doesn't hold weight, sorry Drakos. So what's the reason?

It could be, as you say that there is an ethnic or political jealousy of the Greeks because we are uncontrollable.

Or could be because, as i say, that our football is undermined because we haven't earned their respect yet. I'm sure they love to undermine us, but if we start producing players that perform abroad and we put it good performances at major tournaments then we might start to force them to give us respect.

So we need a semi-final spot at the least to start changing those prejudices.

[drakos13]

another funny Euro dedicated ad from Nova.....

[Guest geok]

The evidence gathered from the last 2 friendlies is that Greece will most likely play 3 games only in EURO2008.

I am most dissapointed by Samaras. I have never seen a camel playing football.

Gekas is out of form. Salpi fights but just that. Another abysmal performance by Charisteas.

Giourkas doubtful for a starting 11, rather have toro and spyropoulos on the wings

You can imagine what the performance is like if you best player is Nikopolidis.

:tdown:

[cyberfish]

Keep the faith geok, the real games will be much different than the last two friendlies. The psychology of a real event is so much different than rehearsals.

Besides, there is no need to be stressed out. We already won the big one, and if we don't win it this time around won't be the end of the world.

I come from three decades of seeing blue in big tournaments once per decade. Seeing our NT making it to two EURO finals in one decade is already heavenly for me.

[manifest777]

:whistle: Well let's hope they get their act together and fight with heart for their first game against Sweden. They still have 9 days to prepare. I've always been disappointed watching NT in friendlies. This game was no exception. They played too soft (ok worrying about injuries) and the positioning of the players was terrible. The middfield lost so many balls and the strickers were just...absent. Anyway, it's just a friendly and it's good that each player gets some playing time according to his form. I thought Spyropoulos, Torosidis, Antzas played well; I'm very disappointed by Gekas and Charisteas, they do not bring any impact. Salpy is fast, fighting, but lacks efficiency. Just hope they will be ready for their first game. :gr: