On the way to EURO 2008

[xiotis]

are they not showing the game in Greece? According to the site it is not being shown..i hope this incorrect

[loup]

I think that Salpigidis has a role on the Ethniki

He and Stelios add pace to the squad and I can see Otto calling on him

He used Lakis in the past to keep defenders honest and may to the sam ethis time around

I think its between Goumas and Papasthopoulos, Antzas was TOO good at Turkey

Goumas is the safe pick, he played well in the one game he started and led to Lybe's goal vs Moldova

Of course Papsthopoulos is younger and quicker

Any chance of Spiropoulos or Tsiolis staying home?

[cyberfish]

We will know shortly, but it's fun speculating.

Looking at it methodically, by position, we have:

GK=3 (Nikopolidis, Chalkias, Tzorvas)

Fullbacks=4 (Seitaridis, Vintra, Torosidis, Spyropoulos). Emergency: Patsatzoglou

Stoppers=5 (Dellas, Kyriakos, Atzas, Papastathopoulos, Goumas) Emergency: Katsouranis

DM= 3 (Basinas, Katsouranis, Tziolis) Emergency: Atzas, Patsatzoglou, Torosidis

AM=2 (Karagounis, Giannakopoulos) Emergency: Lyberopoulos

SS= 3 (Samaras, Amanatidis, Lyberopoulos)

SF= 3 (Gekas, Haristeas, Salpigidis) Emergency: Lyberopoulos

It looks like a balanced team with decent depth in most positions except LB.

In this kind of a tournament I would not take 5 CBs. I don't think the depth of the position would be diminished if either Goumas or Papastathopoulos are dropped. I would keep Goumas based on experience, but I would not be upset if Papastathopoulos makes the team either.

I don't see Otto going to Euro with only 2 true DMs (I don't consider Patsatzoglou a EURO-caliber DM), nor do I think he'll go with less than 4 FBs (they are more prone to accumulating cards because of their position).

Actually based on ability and form, I would drop Patsatzoglou over both Goumas or Papastathopoulos. But I can see how Patsa's versitillity can be helpful over having five CBs.

I like Athinaios' idea of dropping one of the three GKs, but that would be a huge gamble. It's a position that can kill you if you run into a sting of bad luck. I would take 3 GKs and be thankful Athinaios is not coaching the NT (yet) :P

I don't see any other posibillity myself. It's between Goumas or Papastathopoulos. But Otto knows better than me what condition each player is, and who serves his plans better.

[aekrossoponti]

He and Stelios add pace to the squad and I can see Otto calling on him

Any chance of Spiropoulos or Tsiolis staying home?

if stelios adds PACE :o :o to the squad we are in real trouble...

spyropoulos is the only true leftback. it wouldnt really make sense not to take him unless we say that vyntra is better on the left than spyropoulos. lets not forget vyntra can play leftback and quite decent as well. but to drop spyropoulos would be ludicrous from otto i think...

tziolis seems to play a role in ottos thoughts. i dont see him be dropped. the question here is whether patsa is better than tziolis. given patsa latest deforme performances one could say: not really. tziolis is strong defensively and in the air. otto needs those type of players in case we have to defend a narrow lead over time. yes...flintstones football here we go again :D

[aekrossoponti]

I don't see any other posibillity myself. It's between Goumas or Papastathopoulos. But Otto knows better than me what condition each player is, and who serves his plans better.

i dont think goumas is at risk but its a possibility. otto values experience highly. given that antzas, dellas, and kiriakos all come from injuries it could really make sense to take 5 central defenders along.

i agree patsa should make the squad. not because i think so but because otto does. he is one of his favourites.

i think it could be between papastathopoulos and salpi. 6 strikers plus stelios seems alot. its just a bit frustrating that stelios seems such a wasted callup. i men i like the guy but his tank seems rather empty.

[OFI-mtl]

Here are my 23:

* starter game 1

Keepers: *Nikopolidis,Chalkias,Tsorvas ( Otto will carry 3 and must..1 injury and F'd up redcard than who goes in goal :unsure: )

Defenders: *Giourkas (not happy with his form or health he will be a wildcard),*Dellas (see Giourkas),*Kyriakos,*Torosidis,Spyropoulos,Vyntra,Papastathpoulos,Antzas

Mids: *Karagounis, *Basinas,*Katsouranis, Tziolis,Stelios (dont agree at all with this pick, I believe he is done..hope I am wrong)

Strikers: *Charisteas, *Gekas, *Amanatidis, Samaras, Lybe

Players left : Salpi Goumas Patsa

22.Patsa ( would have loved to see a ballsy move Ninis)

23.Goumas ( and Makos in this spot)

We do not need the extra striker Stelios can play the late game poacher as well as Lybe. Salpi showed in the Norway game vs a quality LB (Risse) that he will be overwhelmed physically.

This roster has depth and versatility Toro can move to RB IF Giourkas is off and Otto can insert Spyropoulos at LB. Patsa ( plays Mid as well) and Vyntra offer the same at RB and Vyntra has played some LB. Toro can even push up to RMid.

I believe Giourkas play will be very important because our 3 center mids will not be able to go all the way and will have to be spotted...is Tziolis ready for this stage..pushing Toro up and squeezing minutes out of Stelios and the hopefull EMERGENCE of Spyropoulos at LB will be huge.

GOOD LUCK and HEALTH TO THE BOYS

[as5664]

Well, a lot of you got your wish by having Papastathopoulos added to the EURO 08 squad. Honestly, I wish Otto would have selected Ninis, as an extra attacking mid, and left out a striker; do we really need 6 strikers?? But hey, on the upside, our defending options look good...happy I didn't see defenders like Goumas, Kapsis, or Anatolakis. Avraam Papadopoulos would have been a good selection too. Still, though, I would have liked to see Ninis on the squad.

[AEK-MTL]

I can understand why some of you guys wanted Otto to select Ninis but honestly, the kid hasn't played all season and after one game, he's earned his spot at the Euro? He scores a goal off a goalkeeping error and makes a few nice passes against a Cyprus B side. That doesn't make him Euro-calibre all of a sudden.

Don't get me wrong, I like the kid and I think he has huge potential but I just don't think he's ready for prime-time yet. Let him get some more games with the U'19 first. It's not like there's a rush. The NT will still be waiting for him when Euro 2008 is done and dusted and WC2010 qualifying rolls around.

Now I know some of you will say, why not take out Patsa, or Stelio, or Goumas and give Ninis a shot? Fact is, as talented as Ninis is, these guys contributed to our success during qualifying and they are experienced. Sure they're just bench players but I'll bet that this experience counts come half-time in a tight game when you need good leadership in the room.

[cyberfish]

I don't see how the player with the most goals can stay out of the squad. Salpigidis is a scorer. He has proven it by raking in the top-scorers list year after year.

Style, technique, stature are all important, but when choosing strikers, scoring ability is the highest priority imo. I don't see Salpigidis getting eliminated.

If I were to eliminate a forward, I would look at eliminating one of the SS.

But why carry five CBs? There is no rational reason for it. Teams go through entire seasons with 4 CBs.

CB is also a position that does not offer any tactical flexibility in a short tournament like this.

Carrying five CBs is insurance against extreme situations, but it does not help the coach to have an extra CB when he needs to turn a game, or to plug a hole in another position (say DM or FB) should extreme bad luck hits them.

To make it simple, a fifth CB would eliminate a player who could allow better flexibility in the formation (a little extra pace in certain games, a little more work on the wings, a little more pressing in midfield, an extra player in front of a FB in trouble, etc).

[DUDE]

I can understand why some of you guys wanted Otto to select Ninis but honestly, the kid hasn't played all season and after one game, he's earned his spot at the Euro? He scores a goal off a goalkeeping error and makes a few nice passes against a Cyprus B side. That doesn't make him Euro-calibre all of a sudden.

Don't get me wrong, I like the kid and I think he has huge potential but I just don't think he's ready for prime-time yet. Let him get some more games with the U'19 first. It's not like there's a rush. The NT will still be waiting for him when Euro 2008 is done and dusted and WC2010 qualifying rolls around.

Now I know some of you will say, why not take out Patsa, or Stelio, or Goumas and give Ninis a shot? Fact is, as talented as Ninis is, these guys contributed to our success during qualifying and they are experienced. Sure they're just bench players but I'll bet that this experience counts come half-time in a tight game when you need good leadership in the room.

I agree. My heart would want Ninis in, but my mind tells me that it's best for everyone (including him) if he doesn't go.

As for Salpi, I think by now everyone here knows that I agree with Cyberfish. Not only has he been raking in the goals year in year out (something that only Gekas and Lybe have done among the other forwards). Salpi has never really been used correctly by Otto except in the first half against Spain in Zagorakis' testimonial, and he was very good. He's a centre-forward. Samaras, Amanatidis, and Lybe aren't. If we're 1-0 up with 10 mins to go and we're under pressure, I'd much rather have Salpi come in up front than Samaras or Stelio because he'd work like a dog. If we're in extra-time and the opposition is tired I want Salpi running at them, etc. He's hard-working and quick and we know he can get goals when used correctly.

I'm also a big fan of Lybe, a BIG FAN! I actually believe he could be the difference between us going far in the tournament and going out in the first round. I know many of you will think I sound like a nut, but I love the dude, he's one of my favourite players. Forget his fantastic footballing abilities and high-work rate for a second, look at the brute facts of what he's offered... look at the impact he's had late in games against Kazakhstan, Moldova (twice), Norway away, Turkey away, etc. He's our super-sub. He's what Kanu was to Arsenal, what Solskjaer was to Man Utd, etc. So he has to be in imo, and also has to play a big role in the team. So let's say Otto picked his team and wanted to leave out one Salpi, Samaras, Stelios, Lybe, Goumas, Antzas, and whoever else we're discussing... and I had a veto, I'd stop him from leaving out Lybe. BUT, that means if Lybe is in, and Salpi is valuable like Cyberfish and I beleive, then makes sense to leave out one of the others.

Samaras has been in good form, and although I personally wouldn't use him unless a game was wrapped up or we were really desperate and looking to throw on 5 forwards for long balls in the last 10 mins, he's been in good form for Celtic so has probably earned his place.

Stelios had a good game the other day, and although I agree with Aek66 about his usage, the fact is he can play on the left if desperately needed, so he's in.

That leaves Goumas, Antzas, and Papastathopoulos. Antzas can play as a defensive midfielder if necessary, so that adds alot to his value. It's a tough decision, but I'd probably leave Goumas out I think (although I'm a fan of his too) but like Cyberfish says, do we really need that many centre-backs? Even if we play 5-3-2 (or 3-5-2), we know Seitaridis can play as a man-marking centre-back. So one of them has to go.

[Guest geok]

In theory, this is the best sequence of games for GR. This is how I'd prefer to play them. Sweden, Russia, Spain.

And, this is a good group for GR. All teams are dangerous in the tournament. We seem to do OK with Scandinavian teams, and we've beaten RU & SP.

As for the last 23, may I gamble a bit? I'd leave out one of the goalies! I don't think we really need 3--history shows that the 3rd one never plays.... but we might need all the others.

Athinaios, could you explain please why do you think this is the best sequence?

I can see what it is best to play Spain last but why Sweden first?

According to UEFA and FIFA regulations each team must include 3 goalkeepers, but I agree with your point, I'd do the same actually, leave one out! Unfortunately, we can't do that.

[Guest geok]

I agree. My heart would want Ninis in, but my mind tells me that it's best for everyone (including him) if he doesn't go.

As for Salpi, I think by now everyone here knows that I agree with Cyberfish. Not only has he been raking in the goals year in year out (something that only Gekas and Lybe have done among the other forwards). Salpi has never really been used correctly by Otto except in the first half against Spain in Zagorakis' testimonial, and he was very good. He's a centre-forward. Samaras, Amanatidis, and Lybe aren't. If we're 1-0 up with 10 mins to go and we're under pressure, I'd much rather have Salpi come in up front than Samaras or Stelio because he'd work like a dog. If we're in extra-time and the opposition is tired I want Salpi running at them, etc. He's hard-working and quick and we know he can get goals when used correctly.

I'm also a big fan of Lybe, a BIG FAN! I actually believe he could be the difference between us going far in the tournament and going out in the first round. I know many of you will think I sound like a nut, but I love the dude, he's one of my favourite players. Forget his fantastic footballing abilities and high-work rate for a second, look at the brute facts of what he's offered... look at the impact he's had late in games against Kazakhstan, Moldova (twice), Norway away, Turkey away, etc. He's our super-sub. He's what Kanu was to Arsenal, what Solskjaer was to Man Utd, etc. So he has to be in imo, and also has to play a big role in the team. So let's say Otto picked his team and wanted to leave out one Salpi, Samaras, Stelios, Lybe, Goumas, Antzas, and whoever else we're discussing... and I had a veto, I'd stop him from leaving out Lybe. BUT, that means if Lybe is in, and Salpi is valuable like Cyberfish and I beleive, then makes sense to leave out one of the others.

Samaras has been in good form, and although I personally wouldn't use him unless a game was wrapped up or we were really desperate and looking to throw on 5 forwards for long balls in the last 10 mins, he's been in good form for Celtic so has probably earned his place.

Stelios had a good game the other day, and although I agree with Aek66 about his usage, the fact is he can play on the left if desperately needed, so he's in.

That leaves Goumas, Antzas, and Papastathopoulos. Antzas can play as a defensive midfielder if necessary, so that adds alot to his value. It's a tough decision, but I'd probably leave Goumas out I think (although I'm a fan of his too) but like Cyberfish says, do we really need that many centre-backs? Even if we play 5-3-2 (or 3-5-2), we know Seitaridis can play as a man-marking centre-back. So one of them has to go.

I agree on DUDE on everything. The only remark to make about Lybe is that he does not seem very keen to run and this means also that his pressuring ability is limited. It seems more reasonable to me that he is to be used as a substitute in special circumstances (if we need a goal at the end of a game say).

Also something to add on Patsa. Although I have expressed in many occasions that I'd rather have him drop, I acknowledge that he has the ability to play at the middlefield (where we need numbers) and in special occasions in his less good position of left back. Also because Antzas can also play at CD and CM he is overall more useful than Goumas. Thus out of Patsa, Antzas and Goumas, I'd probably leave out Goumas

It appears to me that it is going to be a fight between Goumas and Papastathopoulos for the final spot. Whoever wins, I don't see Goumas having many more further appearances in the NT though.

We will see after the friendly against Hungary.

[Guest geok]

....and the goal was marginally offside too...

[aekrossoponti]

not sure what all this talk is with tziolis being the champion of high balls.

this isan explanation for tziolis inclusion which i heard. the point taken was that any other coach would drop tziolis because he has katsouranis and basinas who are clearly better and good backups in torosidis and patsa (if in form). the special thing about otto is that he loves his controlled offence which relies in part on closing down the middle. apparently tziolis is the kind of player that can help here, when we need to hold on to a narrow lead.

personally i think tziolis is nothing to write home about and fairly mediocre. i would leave him at home. but then again i dont decide.

[loup]

In theory I like Tsiolis - young, fairly strong, defensive midfielder, who is the next Zagoraki

In theory I like the idea of chocolate, beer, MacDonald's and cigarettes being the four major food groups

Unfortunately both are not true

I have NEVER seen Tsiolis play well

I have seen him play decent - most of the time

I have seen him play mediocre - some times

and a couple of times I 've seen him play poorly

but NEVER have I walked away from a game and said wow that Tsiolis is a special player

[dark_horse]

Otto will not bring any teenagers to EURO, they are not ready to play in the big game. Ninis, Papastathopoulos, and others will be playing in the U-21 side for the time being. Whoever Otto brings with him, we all gotta have faith and believe in him. I'm sure he knows what he is doing.

[aekrossoponti]

loup sums up my feelings about tziolis quite well. i know otto loves tall players and tziolis is 1,90m but apart from that i dont really know what tziolis could offer to the ethniki.

[cyberfish]

I agree with most of Loup's feelings about Tziolis, except I HAVE seen him play well.

I watched every Panathinaikos game this season, and Tziolis played almost 90% of the games. So I wil add some more to the Tziolis portrait:

I like him. I think he is a really excellent holding midfielder. He is mature, has adequate technique to do what he needs, he has above average football smarts, and rarely misses an assignment during a game (it happens, but not often).

He is also a different kind of DM than the other ones we have. He does not carry the ball, he does not dribble, and he does not get as involved in either the offensive or defensive play. At PAO this year he played a holding role in midfield. He pressed opponents very successfully and when he got the ball (many-many steals) he distributed quickly and accurately. He has good ball control and his upright style make him look slower than he is. He is best when the team presses high and tries to steal the ball in the opponent's half (had as many steals as Mattos this season, 48 according to SL official stats.

That's what he does well: He hustles opponents in midfield, he steals balls, he holds the ball well, and distributes quickly. Despite his height, I don't consider him good in the air in either box. He does win a lot of the hight balls in midfield where there is not as much traffic. He does have an above average forward pass.

But please, let's not deteriorate another perfectly good forum into "why is Tziolis playing". Tziolis has worked himself up in Otto's hierarchy and I don't see him getting cut. I actually see him starting most games.

Added: The only problem I see is that Tziolis had a huge season in terms of appearances and has covered endless meters in midfield. He looked tired down the stretch and I am not sure what condition he would be in this EURO.

[aekrossoponti]

cyberfish thanks for the insight although your view seems very different to loups. i don t follow tziolis closely, he just never made an impression on me. in any case i dont see him start in the euro or even getting significant minutes.

the lousy balla.gr states otto contemplates waiving dellas to please gagatsis:

http://www.balla.gr/default.asp?pid=95&la=1&catId=33

this can t have ANY substance to it.

[loup]

Cyber - good to hear from someone who has watched him more than I have, all I can comment on is what I've seen (a half dozen PAO games an year, and all Ethniki matches) of him

Aekrossopnti - no way Dellas is on his way out, Otto played him when he couldnt move , now he is playing better

aek 66 - I loved the way Leontiou was playing before he got mangled, he was a servicable LB and a decent prospect at LM I thought.

BTW - What ever happened to Darlas' bright future?

[dark_horse]

Darlas never was able to break into the ethniki, so Otto elects not to have him in there.

[cyberfish]

@ AEK66: Leontiou has been very unlucky. He missed the whole season with a knee injury, and it looks like he was heading out for more therapy last month, which seems to put his recovery behind (he will probably miss the preseason this year).

It was a shame because he looked great in the offseason friendlies last year, and he was improving on his most glaring weakness: strength.

I think he is a better in a role of a second DM. I don't think he can play the position alone, and I think he is way too slow to play wide either as winger or LB. His technique is excellent though, and he always looks to thread a forward pass so he would be good as a creative DM. Kind of like a slower Basinas, with a left foot and excellent dribbling ability (which tends to slow his game though).

@ Dark Horse: Darlas is the most horrible left back I have ever seen wearing Panathinaikos jersey. He can run down the left for sure, but he has no concept when to do it, how to do it, and what to do when he loses the ball (90% of the time). Worst yet for a defender, he can't mark in space. He mis-times his tackles most of the time that result in either looking like a fool, or in horrid fouls. He does not have the football intelligence that I see in every Otto call. I think it's safe to say he will never wear the blue jersey unless he turns his game around in a hurry.

[Guest geok]

cyberfish thanks for the insight although your view seems very different to loups. i don t follow tziolis closely, he just never made an impression on me. in any case i dont see him start in the euro or even getting significant minutes.

the lousy balla.gr states otto contemplates waiving dellas to please gagatsis:

http://www.balla.gr/default.asp?pid=95&la=1&catId=33

this can t have ANY substance to it.

Sorry but I can't agree with Balla.gr scenario.

Dellas is needed and Papastathopoulos cannot replace his position for all the EURO games. He can replace Dellas as a substitute during the game or for a potentially whole game if Dellas is unfit, but not for the whole EURO.

I think gagatsis is just a lucky epo president who won the lottery by employing Otto but I don't think that can impose such a big decision to Otto.

Besides Otto can only be influenced by Beate, don't forget that.

I am sorry to see bad Greek domestic press but I am not surprized and besides we all know that this team is not a success of Greece or the "Greek system" but it is a success of some greek footballers and a great coach. And most of the success comes from greek footballers who play abroad I should add.

[aekrossoponti]

100% agreed...

besides the euro was won by the "bunch of eternal losers" that couldn t win championships in greece because of the almighty thrylos dynasty. thats something to think about as well...

[cyberfish]

100% agreed...

besides the euro was won by the "bunch of eternal losers" that couldn t win championships in greece because of the almighty thrylos dynasty. thats something to think about as well...

True, I remember how some of the "best" players in their positions were left home (Zikos, Georgatos) in EURO 04. Personally, I learned from this experience a good lesson: that there is much more to a football team than just "football" talent, Xs and Os. Building a team is concerned first and foremost with group and game "chemistry".