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On 10/9/2016 at 11:03 PM, aek66 said:

if we had 100% right on our side, shoot down with a missile or intercepting aircraft a turkish plane(s). now, we make NATO and the EU get involved. why won't they do it? because they aren't sure they have 100% right on our side. top greek jurists and military figures have said so.

I think what Greece fears is that if we were to shoot down a Turkish plane, that this could be the catalyst for a "discussion" or series of meetings on what exactly are the rights.  We all know that Turkey has a bee in their ass about the Lausanne Treaty.  There is nothing Turkey would like more than to "discuss" this and get it revised.  And make no mistakes, if such a discussion was to take place, I don't really see the world powers favoring Greece over Turkey.  If anything, they would favour Turkey just to put an end to the issue, and let little Greece cry as much as she likes.

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9 hours ago, ThrylosG7 said:

This is why we are treated with disdain and as an after thought  - if we had smarter , more charismatic and decisive politicians who were interested in getting results that favoured Greece instead of just hanging around the traps we would be taken more seriously. 

I agree, but how can the situation improve when in Greece you have families with lots of influence and history in politics getting into Parliament or other highly influential positions.  Can you imagine if in Australia, John Howard or Paul Keating put their son or daughter forward as a candidate ?  The ridicule!  Oh, the ridicule would be huge.  But in Greece, not only is there no ridicule from the media but the population overall don't really see a problem.  And it is a problem.  It always has been and always will be.  Greece invented democracy but I dare say it also invented nepotism.

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On 13/10/2016 at 9:31 PM, Reaper said:

 Greece is very good at losing friends but not very good at making friends. Israel and Russia were both in the market for good friends in the med the last 10 years. 

 

I think in the big picture we are just small potatoes. Besides history, good food, beaches and holidays, what can we offer the powerful nations looking to serve their own interests? I mean it with zero irony or poniria. If anyone cares to enlighten me I would be appreciative.

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Dont forget the old saying ("oti bori na arpaxone")

Gold--- oil ---natural gas---real estate---shipping gateway--maritime —

Defense cooperation/military presence,  agricultural production.

There is actually many different things.

 

 

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I stumbled on this resource some time ago, and have been following this thread since. Now i have decided to register and add my few words.
Pure strategically - your islands are perfect place for bases to improve presence in MED, not even saying about markets to sell weaponry and so on.
And Russia desperately needs allies, true allies, even if they appear weak for now. After all, Russia dont have allies as of right now (China, for example, never was or will be an ally, and living close to thier border, i know what im talking about) only "temporary" partners.
But this will not  happen untill Greece and Turkey are NATO allies, and Russia will continue to maneuver around Erdogan, however disgusting it may be for me, or anyone else.

 

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16 minutes ago, ThrylosG7 said:

In fact taking the matter to an international court should have been done a long time ago...

I think this would be similar to the case with China regarding the South China Sea islands.  Turkey wouldn't attend and would consider any verdict as irrelevant.  Still, it would give Greece a little moral ground for the future.  But that would mean actually having the balls to do it.  Which is to say, I don't see this happening anytime soon.

23 minutes ago, ThrylosG7 said:

Dont be so quick to paint Putin as a Philhellene - owning a house in Greece and visiting Mt Athos doesnt make him Lord Byron by any stretch. Firstly - regarding Mt Athos - There is a massive power struggle in the Orthodox Church between the Russian Orthodox Church , and the Church of Constantinople . regarding Mt Athos each church looks after its own sections - and Russia has poured millions into upgrading their monasteries - Russia as always is playing its own game behind the scenes.

As for Russia being an ally, man, they can't even treat their own people properly.  The things done to the citizens of Russia by their own governments/leaders are nothing short of horrific.  There is a reason why Russia doesn't have any allies.  I can't even imagine a world where Russia developed the nuclear bomb before the U.S.  It would have looked like something out George Orwell's 1984.  Hairy East German armpits anyone ?

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29 minutes ago, Bananas said:

done to the citizens of Russia by their own governments/leaders

You are mistaking today Russia with Stalin's USSR - a common thing under ex communist countries, with some extreme hatred and paranoia from certain of them (wont deny that they have reasons for this on USSR though)

 

32 minutes ago, ThrylosG7 said:

has quite a lot of support in Russia

He has FULL support in Russia, even despite that almost everyone knows about his corruption stuff (like musician-billionaire friend of his, or castle-like house), it just can't overshadow the things he has done, especially having too fresh memories of Yeltsin time.

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15 minutes ago, grkjet said:

Western Thrace should hold a referendum based on the "large" muslim community

Isnt that just a stupid bluff? I just can not believe in this kind of fairy tales, then again,  i dont know anything about peoples mood there. And i dont like the feeling of vague hint on Crimea referendum in this statement of his...

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Guys, why shouldn't the Muslim community in Thrace or anywhere else not "import" imams? Is there a Muslim religious academy in Greece that trains imams? Greek Americans in the US bring in priests from GR even though I think there's a theological school in the US.

Please don't tell me that Turkey doesn't allow Xtian seminary nor the importation of priests... (which is true) as an excuse. Either you accept the principle of individual rights, including free worship, or not. Turkey is not an enlightened country and it's treading back to authoritarian and religious rule.

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12 hours ago, Reaper said:

Personally - I would have gone to the Hague ASAP. I don't believe the Greek excuses. The treaties concerning the inhabited islands are clear. There is no court in the world that would grant Turkey the right to fly military jets over inhabited Greek islands or suggest that Turkey has a right to go to war with Greece for expanding its air and sea borders to 12 miles - even in far off places like Corfu and Crete.  

I'm not anywhere close to having a clue about international law, but I was under the impression that sovereign states are not bound to any international court's ruling unless they voluntarily chose to do so, making all these proceedings pretty much just a way for one country to publicly shame another opposing country. These courts do not have any power to for example stop Turkey from flying its jets anywhere (legally or otherwise).

Is that more or less accurate? Turkey will just ignore the rulings like all other countries do, unless they agree to cede their sovereignty to the court? Which no country really does if they know they are in the wrong. If I am wrong I would appreciate any clarification(s) if you feel like sharing.

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A thought experiment.

Could it be that Turkey actually wants Greece to shoot down a Turkish jet out of the sky ?  Could it be that all this provocation is aimed at getting Greece to perform a "violent" act and make Greece look like (a) the bad guy and (b) give Turkey a reason to actually then initiate further military action.

As it is, Turkey can initiate military action.  After all, who is there to stop them ?  Where was the world community during the invasion of Cyprus ?  But to do so without provocation (that they could manipulate) they would have to pay a heavy diplomatic (and economic?) price.

Instead, just keep provoking those Greeks in the hope that one of them just loses his s%$#! and presses the "self-destruct" button.

You see, if I was the President of Turkey and I actually wanted to somehow take land or islands from Greece, and this happened, I would just smile and say "Thank you very much.  Now I have ALL the excuse I need to get the military involved".

I am not saying this is the reality.  But what I am saying is, how do we know this is not the reality ?  Just thinking out loud.

N.B.  Not really versed in matters military.

Edited by Bananas
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2 hours ago, Reaper said:

However your thought experiment is not actually a thought experiment. It is current Greek policy not to shoot down the Turkish bombers - because there might be 'war..'

Well, let's say in this hypothetical that you are now the PM of Greece, and you have intelligence that definitely proves Turkey wants you to provoke a war, so they can go for these gray zones.  Let's say for the sake of the hypothetical the intelligence is beyond dispute.  Then what ?  Do you take the risk Turkey will back down ?

I suppose a big part of this comes down to the capabilities of the military of both Greece and Turkey, which is an area I know little about.  Maybe the Greek military has diminished in strength relative to the Turkish military in the last decade or two ?

Maybe ?  Maybe ?

The point I'm trying to make is that maybe it's possible we're not privy to critical information, which might explain Greece's reluctance to take the risk.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents.  Maybe less.

Edited by Bananas
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1 minute ago, grkjet said:

Turkey's military is no doubt bigger in terms of man power, and if I remember they have more fighter jets, but Greece's military is no slouch. In terms of pure military equipment, given its GDP and population size, Greece has maintained a pretty large military. 

In an armed conflict I think Greece would put up a big fight, I'm not sure it would overcome the turks but I think Greece is no slouch. On the contrary, if Turkey and Greece went to war there is no doubt in my mind that it would spawn another world war. The geo-political locations of both countries would have far too many consequences on surrounding countries. The Balkan region would have to react to Turkish invasion because let's not be naive and think that Turkey wouldn't want to further it's rule to neighboring countries.

Yes, agree 100% if Turkey tried for a "total" war so to speak.  But what if they instead just took all the islands close to Turkey and fortified the bejesus out of them, and did this all so quickly Greece couldn't react ?  Again my knowledge is not great.  Again another hypothetical.  I'm sure if we're talking about it, the Greek military has been over it 10,000 times.

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4 minutes ago, Reaper said:

I just can't even imagine the hypothetical. For example I can imagine many things - but having studied Turkey for as long as I can remember - I just can't imagine Turkey wanting to go to war with Greece over grey zones. I can't imagine Russia invading Poland either. Just can't do it. 

I have to agree.  The risk Greece is afraid of, is a big risk for Turkey also.  Things can escalate, and can be difficult to predict.

 

5 minutes ago, Reaper said:

Finally I would invite Turkish officials and Kurdish officials to official peace talks in Salonika.

Ha ha, now that made me laugh.

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25 minutes ago, Reaper said:

host NATO nukes

US will not buy this, and with that move you will have hostile Russia, i dont know what you could do but u cant take two directions at once, you have somehow take a stand for yourself and not look to serve anyone be it France, US or Russia alike

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9 minutes ago, aek66 said:

i realize this is a greek board and some posters fantasize of 2 evzones taking out a turkish brigade, but the reality is not good. turkey has developed it's own frigate class and it's own MBT (main battle tank). turkish units are also gaining combat experience/equipment against the kurds and syrians. the disparity in military power grows at levels not seen since the 1800s. when greece acquired the averof, the turks were stuck in the loser naval position for 35 years. it's not like that anymore.

I read something recently that Turkey is trying to develop its own, I think it was avionics, as well as some other stuff I can't remember.  Regardless, the nature of the article was that Turkey is trying to become more self-sufficient in terms of providing their own weaponry.

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3 minutes ago, ThrylosG7 said:

I read an article last year that Greece has enough "reserve" to fight an intense conflict  for 2 weeks - thats bullets, shells , missiles  etc...meaning a small conflict for for no more than a month - then your relying on other nations sending you supplies if you cant get your production lines up and  promptly as we dont produce them ourselves continuously ... Really in peace time  apparently 4- 6 weeks is what it should be ..which if there is a conflict - it gives you ample time to get production lines and logistics synchronized. 

What ?  2 weeks ?  That's an awfully low number.  And we've seen during the economic crisis how keen other countries are to come to our aid.

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1 minute ago, ThrylosG7 said:

And Iran

I don't see why the U.S. would even consider giving Greece nukes.  They know we have this "relationship" with our Russian "brothers", the whole Orthodox thing.  Much easier to just arm the Turks.  Just makes sense is all.

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5 minutes ago, ThrylosG7 said:

Oh they will send us ammunitions if we need them dont worry - and put it on out tab The idea though is that when you purchase these things you get to assemble them of build them under licence in your country - you just hope that the set up and the logistics dont take you that long. Some missiles we are not allowed to make so we have already bought them in bulk and stored them like say Patriots or the S300's - other things though like making bullets, rifles , grenades for example the machines are not constantly producing 

That's really really surprising.  I would've thought given our love affair with Turkey we'd be a bit more prepared than that.  I wonder if it's similar for Turkey ie. only a few weeks supply of basic ammunition.

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Just now, Reaper said:

They would not have enough weaponry either and would start importing arms very soon after a hypothetical war began. Seeing as you like hypotheticals - a more interesting one would be what the Kurds would do if Turkey found itself in a war with another nation.

You touch on one of Turkey's key concerns.  The fact that it's not only Greece that has problems with them, but other nations also.  If anything serious were to happen between Greece and Turkey, Turkey would be looking over their shoulder with one eye on the Kurds.

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