Next Day for Greece

[Bananas]

Right now, I'd love to see all their *************.  I'll cool down soon ... I think.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Moderator: I know you don't mean it literally but it in these times we shouldn't make statements that can be misconstrued as threats.

[athinaios]

Here's the new memorandum.

• in English
• in Greek

And, for frequent updates, you can check The Guardian.

 

 

Since we're talking about the next, do you find anything good in these required/imposed reforms?

 

One thing is obvious, that when others dictate how to run your own country, and you accept it, it means that serious national independence has been lost. So, please enough of the rhetoric like, "we didn't sell the country", "kept our head high", etc.

 

Another sure thing: Tsipras will have a hard time governing (IF he makes it), because he campaigned against what he has agreed to today. Syriza may unravel. It'll be, let's say extremely unusual, to have legislation passed with other parties' votes while the majority of Syriza deputies vote against it. That can't last long. Tsipras will have to reshuffle his government and fire Lafazanis (energy minister who had been pushing the ..Russia solution) and Konstantopoulou (parliament president). Both have been loud voices against Tsipras's managing the euro talks and any possible deal under current terms.

 

The next day already looks very bad.....

[js1000]

I don't think so Akritis, but I'm only speculating.  I can only go by what I'm thinking, and right now, I feel betrayed by Tsipras.  If I was a voter in Greece, I would have voted for Syriza, as an alternative to the duds of yesteryear of course.  But right now, I wouldn't vote for him.  After today, he's done nothing different to what ND or PASOK would have done.

 

Having said that, who the hell knows.  Maybe in 2, 3 or 5 years from now we might turn around and say that having the EU control the Greek economy helped fix it.  Or Greece may be worse off.  I really don't know.  I'm pretty sure the IMF and EU don't know since their 1st bail out turned into a 2nd, and now a 3rd.  Will there be a 4th ?

 

F*** PASOK.  F*** Papandreou.  F*** the Junta.  F*** ND.  F*** Karamanlides.  F*** Tsipras.  F*** them all.

 

Can you tell I'm a little angry ? :)

 

P.S.  F*** Schauble and Merkel too.

Of course there'll be a 4th, the debt is un payable(regardless of any poxy 'reforms') and the goal is to loot all of Greece's revenue generating assets and turn the people into serfs. The fact Tsiparas has no desire to exit meant the EU held all the aces in the negotiations, the last thing they'll do is let Greece leave and miss out on their looting frenzy. The US certainly doesn't want Greece to exit either in case it has more influence from Moscow, did Tsiparas bottle it or did they let him know any exit might result in friendly neighbours being given the green light to annex a little land, either way Greece is being carved up amongst private creditors. 

[Brklyngrk]

It's crazy, 2 weeks ago, he held a referendum bc the terms were too cruel.  After his referendum, destroyed the economy further, he accepted a much harsher proposal.  If there is any saving grace, Greece will finally put in reforms necessary to attract outside investment and make the private sector that much more competitive. 

[Bananas]

Of course there'll be a 4th, the debt is un payable(regardless of any poxy 'reforms') and the goal is to loot all of Greece's revenue generating assets and turn the people into serfs. The fact Tsiparas has no desire to exit meant the EU held all the aces in the negotiations, the last thing they'll do is let Greece leave and miss out on their looting frenzy. The US certainly doesn't want Greece to exit either in case it has more influence from Moscow, did Tsiparas bottle it or did they let him know any exit might result in friendly neighbours being given the green light to annex a little land, either way Greece is being carved up amongst private creditors. 

 

I've often wondered if threats of "turning a blind eye to Turkish aggression" have been casually offered.  But, it's only speculation.  Who can say really.  Maybe that's why Tsipras pushed Varoufakis to the side.  Varoufakis is not the type to take threats lightly and is more than happy to tell the media some of what is told behind closed doors.

[Bananas]

Right now, I'd love to see all their *************.  I'll cool down soon ... I think.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Moderator: I know you don't mean it literally but it in these times we shouldn't make statements that can be misconstrued as threats.

 

You would have been better off deleting the entire post.  It looks like I cursed with all the ********** in there now, but in fact I didn't.  And there was no threat in there!  

 

Having said that the comment was 100% out of line.

[Bananas]

Well aek66, if it's that cut and dried ie. we are too afraid to leave the Euro, at what point do we begin to think that maybe going to the dpx was the better alternative ?  After 10 years of 25% unemployment, 15 years, 20 years ?  Never ?  Is there a cut off ?

[Bananas]

I just don't see any pros in sticking with the Euro. Even if Greece had zero debt, it's economy would be better off without an overvalued currency that affects your competitiveness.

The sticking point is the changeover, which would be harsh at best, chaotic at worst. But as you say, the serious money has already been shuffled safely away. There isn't all that much to devalue is there ? Now that Greece went to a gun fight with a water pistol, it's all moot.

I'm not a trained economist but isn't it obvious that our exports would grow dramatically as a result ? As for imports, we import too much anyway so having a weaker currency would just mean less "frivolous" spending and only buying essentials. The common consensus (how this was arrived at who knows, maybe throwing darts at a board), seems to be that a dpx would settle at about a 40% less than the Euro. Is this the end of the world ?

What Greece should have done is said we want to leave the Euro, but need to stage and manage it over say a 3 year period or something like that. As far as the media is concerned, you could make it palatable to Merkel to make it seems like it's Greece's fault, which is all she cares about. In fact it would be an early Xmas present for her since a lot of her voters would love a Grexit.

[athinaios]

This is where the money will come from for the "next day" in Greece:

http://www.huffingtonpost.gr/2015/07/14/story-grafima-grexit-bank_n_7792066.html?utm_hp_ref=greece

 

One thing that has been missed by most Greeks, including some of our friends here, is that any agreement with bailout money means that some other EU countries (taxpayers) are asked to chip in. Private or other international lenders will NOT lend to Greece, because of the country being untrustworthy.

 

We can talk about the immorality of the interest and terms, but if you put yourself in such situation there's no national independence left.

 

The Greek gov under Tsipras played the tough guy (or a game of chicken), but miscalcuated. They believed the Europeans would never let Greece leave as this would unravel the EU.. They didn't understand that in the minds of euro leaders (who matter at this point) Greece was not a good club member and better be kicked out.  You can not go negotiating with bravado in this reality.....

[js1000]

This is where the money will come from for the "next day" in Greece:

http://www.huffingtonpost.gr/2015/07/14/story-grafima-grexit-bank_n_7792066.html?utm_hp_ref=greece

 

One thing that has been missed by most Greeks, including some of our friends here, is that any agreement with bailout money means that some other EU countries (taxpayers) are asked to chip in. Private or other international lenders will NOT lend to Greece, because of the country being untrustworthy.

 

We can talk about the immorality of the interest and terms, but if you put yourself in such situation there's no national independence left.

 

The Greek gov under Tsipras played the tough guy (or a game of chicken), but miscalcuated. They believed the Europeans would never let Greece leave as this would unravel the EU.. They didn't understand that in the minds of euro leaders (who matter at this point) Greece was not a good club member and better be kicked out.  You can not go negotiating with bravado in this reality.....

The Eurocrats have no intention of letting Greece leave, if we are so bad and unreliable then why haven't they kicked us out already? The reason is they want to retain control of Greece and loot more of her assets, more bailout=more debt=more control=and more ridiculous demands. The US also doesn't want Greece to leave with the possibility of Moscow having more influence over Greece, they want Greece firmly in the EU and members of NATO. As long as you're members of these clubs you play by their rules. If the EU decides to 'sanction Russia' then Greece has to also, if NATO want to use Greece for any exercise then they use Greece, they got no intention of relinquishing such control.  

[athinaios]

Apparently we see things quite differently. Merkel and some others wanted to kick Greece out that's why they humiliated Tsipras and made even worst offers than in previous months. Like telling someone it's time to leave, hoping they'd leave. But, Tsipras didn't. 

 

You, and many of our compatriots, have to get off the self-delusion bandwagon: we're so great, we have so many assets, we are so important, everyone wants to control us because.. whatever, blah, blah.  You know how many countries (and their people) make such claims? A dime a dozen.

 

The reality has been, since 1821, that Greece has heavily relied upon others to accomplish important milestones that had lasting consequences*. The exception was the Balkan wars in 1912-13. It's been a long history of bad governments & self-governance. Mistakes upon mistakes, only to have people say something like, "they hate us and that's why they want to control us." 

 

 

 

*and now it appears that reorganizing and modernizing the Greek state is, again, in the hands of foreigners :gr:

[js1000]

Apparently we see things quite differently. Merkel and some others wanted to kick Greece out that's why they humiliated Tsipras and made even worst offers than in previous months. Like telling someone it's time to leave, hoping they'd leave. But, Tsipras didn't. 

 

You, and many of our compatriots, have to get off the self-delusion bandwagon: we're so great, we have so many assets, we are so important, everyone wants to control us because.. whatever, blah, blah.  You know how many countries (and their people) make such claims? A dime a dozen.

 

The reality has been, since 1821, that Greece has heavily relied upon others to accomplish important milestones that had lasting consequences*. The exception was the Balkan wars in 1912-13. It's been a long history of bad governments & self-governance. Mistakes upon mistakes, only to have people say something like, "they hate us and that's why they want to control us." 

 

 

 

*and now it appears that reorganizing and modernizing the Greek state is, again, in the hands of foreigners :gr:

i never said anything about 'Greece being so great' the fact is why haven't they kicked us out already? If they wanted to they would of regardless of what Tsiparas/Greeks wanted, every country has assets, just like Greece has, which is why the vultures are circling to get their hands on them, just like the fire sales to privateers happening in Ukraine right now, they've been doing this to African nations for years and impoverished the people there as a result, now they're doing the same to Greece, we've heard the narrative before, Africans are too stupid to run their own affairs, we(west/banks/IMF/etc) give them money in exchange for assets, be it food growing land be it mines be it oil.

 

And yes reorganising and modernising(really impoverishing) Greece is in the hands of foreigners, and to what ends? their benefit or ours? 

 

Seems like you're an apologist for the very people who are carving up Greece for their own ends. 

[athinaios]

Seems like you're an apologist for the very people who are carving up Greece for their own ends. 

 

Darn, I have to admit, the money is good, and since Greece has no money right now, I sold my soul to the dark forces that want to destroy Greece. :lol:   -_-

 

I wonder how much longer will it take for my patrons to destroy Greece? They're at it since 1821....  My advice to them is, don't destroy it, own it. And, if history is a guide, Greeks will help you do it, gaddamit.

[gyros]

JS right now Greece is on the ROPES....Why not go along with the program, reform and get organized....Have a back up plan next time....And 5 years from now if things are not getting better, and if we feel that the Germans are indeed taking over the country....We can than call in the army....Nationalise everything, introduce our new currency with all the German built infrastructure....And tell them to go stick it.....We can't do anything ATM, we need to regroup!!!

 

Unfortunately some people just can't figure out that bribery, tax corruption, pensions at 50, claiming fake subsidies, took us down.  Not the tax rate Starbucks pays.

[Bananas]

Organise who? Greeks? Kazantzakis said it best. You need to tip everyone living in Greece into the sea and start again. Anyone with any type of sense of the common good is usually run out of town.  

 

When the Junta collapsed, Papadreou formally invited every far leftist that had been expelled from Greece back to Greece and gave them cushy jobs and early pensions. These people built the Greece they wanted to see. 

 

Reaper you go on and on about the leftists.  If you were to remove all the leftists from the country, what would the population of Greece be ?

[Bananas]

 

The reality has been, since 1821, that Greece has heavily relied upon others to accomplish important milestones that had lasting consequences*. The exception was the Balkan wars in 1912-13. It's been a long history of bad governments & self-governance. Mistakes upon mistakes, only to have people say something like, "they hate us and that's why they want to control us." 

 

 

So true.  Especially the part about the bad governments.  Unfortunately, Greece has never really had someone that went into government just to try and help the country, apart from a select few.  I can't think of anyone in recent times.

 

Having said that, the EU is now trying to control Greece.  We are this ping pong ball that's now stuck between Germany and France.  The Germans believe they can cut us loose (please do!), and the EU will be all right.  Based on their past predictions from the 1st bail out onwards, I wouldn't put too much stock in their predictions.  The French and Italians are deathly afraid of us being booted from the Euro, hence why they were so against Schauble's 5 year Grexit plan.  And to top it off, Hollande is saying the Greeks weren't humiliated at all.

 

In the meantime, the Greeks have eaten well, danced, sung, partied and are passing on the bill to their children.  Shameful behaviour all round from everyone.

 

As for the "European Project", well, we all know who is the boss now!

[Bananas]

Reaper, I agree with you about the number of "leftists".  I also agree with you that their reasoning (in this day and age) is juvenile at best, down right stupid at worst.

 

But I just don't buy the idea that they have run the country into the ground.  I put most of the blame on governments of the past who didn't have the guts to make appropriate reforms.  The reforms never had to super radical.  No government really does that.  It's just a series of usually small incremental changes and tweaks year after year.  In Greece's case, there has been very little or none, which has gotten us to this point.

 

Fixing the taxation system alone is 10 year project I believe.  Maybe the kids who start University today will have graduated in 10 years from now to help with the mammoth project of reforming Greece. :)

[athinaios]

So, what's the next day going to be like? Don't you think that the traditional big-party blocks (left-right, whatever) may be transformed given the circumstances? Traditionally, 2 big parties got 80% of the vote, but can't do this anymore. Or, will they do again in the near future?  Both left and right had the chance to govern. Both have had their own problems and both didn't manage to solve Greece's problems.

 

By the way, it can be argued that if you take the rhetoric and the ideology (that only few party loyalists fully understand), all parties have used the state (and expanded it) to favor their own clientelle. Same fundamental policies, protecting special interests, inefficiency, and over-burdening the free market. I'm not saying that capitalism shouldn't be regulated, but there is a difference between oversight/regulation and strangulation. It's like capitalism was introduced to Greece but it wasn't understood!

 

Likewise with the other liberal principles of democracy and individual liberty that came out of the Enlightenment. [it's not to be confused with neo-liberalism or neo-conservatism]. These include separation of church-state, individual conscience & choice, etc.  In some ways, Greece is still trying to figure out its place.

[Bananas]

The next day will be like the last.  All talk no action.  Everyone looking towards everyone else to do something, with no one doing anything.  I am keen to be proven wrong.

 

I see no meaningful changes and a 4th bailout in 3 years.  I see XA getting 10% of the vote at the next election.

[Irlandos]

The next day will be like the last.  All talk no action.  Everyone looking towards everyone else to do something, with no one doing anything.  I am keen to be proven wrong.

 

I see no meaningful changes and a 4th bailout in 3 years.  I see XA getting 10% of the vote at the next election.

 

I agree with everything except your last statement: XA - which will take up the mantle of the anti-EU sentiment - will get > 15% in the next election.

[Bananas]

Heck, I'd vote for the Benny Hill party if their policy was a controlled Grexit.

[Bananas]

Posted from Varoufakis blog http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/14/on-the-euro-summits-statement-on-greece-first-thoughts/

 

In the next hours and days, I shall be sitting in Parliament to assess the legislation that is part of the recent Euro Summit agreement on Greece. I am also looking forward to hearing in person from my comrades, Alexis Tsipras and Euclid Tsakalotos, who have been through so much over the past few days. Till then, I shall reserve judgment regarding the legislation before us. Meanwhile, here are some first, impressionistic thoughts stirred up by the Euro Summit?s Statement.

• A New Versailles Treaty is haunting Europe ? I used that expression back in the Spring of 2010 to describe the first Greek ?bailout? that was being prepared at that time. If that allegory was pertinent then it is, sadly, all too germane now.
• Never before has the European Union made a decision that undermines so fundamentally the project of European Integration. Europe?s leaders, in treating Alexis Tsipras and our government the way they did, dealt a decisive blow against the European project.
• The project of European integration has, indeed, been fatally wounded over the past few days. And as Paul Krugman rightly says, whatever you think of Syriza, or Greece, it wasn?t the Greeks or Syriza who killed off the dream of a democratic, united Europe.
• Back in 1971 Nick Kaldor, the noted Cambridge economist, had warned that forging monetary union before a political union was possible would lead not only to a failed monetary union but also to the deconstruction of the European political project. Later on, in 1999, German-British sociologist Ralf Dahrendorf also warned that economic and monetary union would split rather than unite Europe. All these years I hoped that they were wrong. Now, the powers that be in Brussels, in Berlin and in Frankfurt have conspired to prove them right.
• The Euro Summit statement of yesterday morning reads like a document committing to paper Greece?s Terms of Surrender. It is meant as a statement confirming that Greece acquiesces to becoming a vassal of the Eurogroup.
• The Euro Summit statement of yesterday morning has nothing to do with economics, nor with any concern for the type of reform agenda capable of lifting Greece out of its mire. It is purely and simply a manifestation of the politics of humiliation in action. Even if one loathes our government one must see that the Eurogroup?s list of demands represents a major departure from decency and reason.
• The Euro Summit statement of yesterday morning signalled a complete annulment of national sovereignty, without putting in its place a supra-national, pan-European, sovereign body politic. Europeans, even those who give not a damn for Greece, ought to beware.
• Much energy is expended by the media on whether the Terms of Surrender will pass through Greek Parliament, and in particular on whether MPs like myself will toe the line and vote in favour of the relevant legislation. I do not think this is the most interesting of questions. The crucial question is: Does the Greek economy stand any chance of recovery under these terms? This is the question that will preoccupy me during the Parliamentary sessions that follow in the next hours and days. The greatest worry is that even a complete surrender on our part would lead to a deepening of the never-ending crisis.
• The recent Euro Summit is indeed nothing short of the culmination of a coup. In 1967 it was the tanks that foreign powers used to end Greek democracy. In my interview with Philip Adams, on ABC Radio National?s LNL, I claimed that in 2015 another coup was staged by foreign powers using, instead of tanks, Greece?s banks. Perhaps the main economic difference is that, whereas in 1967 Greece?s public property was not targeted, in 2015 the powers behind the coup demanded the handing over of all remaining public assets, so that they would be put into the servicing of our un-payble, unsustainable debt.

[JimAdams]

Posted from Varoufakis blog http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/14/on-the-euro-summits-statement-on-greece-first-thoughts/

Other than accusations from Varoufakis, I don't read any sort of proposed solution to Greece's debt problems.

[gyros]

I will say that it's good to see Tsipras giving reality to those Drachma morons who think you can just change currency overnight and all will be well.

[Bananas]

All those anti-drachma morons will see the error of their ways when Greece needs a 4th bailout.  Maybe Krugman didn't win a Nobel Prize.  It must've been a Moron Prize.