Serbia-Greece

[mangas21]

euro wahts up buddy? thanks for asking...been real busy at work but thats for another day - ouzo and some mezzedakia maybe -.........

well we agree on most of our statements here...poor performance - yes, but as u know more than most, if asking a team to "gell" and look tight on the first attempt to play a different style is asking way too much...yes, give santos time to put things together, but - i like waht he's doing, new faces, wholesale changes, evaluating what he has and how it fits into HIS vision of what will make greece competitive and successful....

about your second comment - you know if u got back and read my posts, i was a supporter of otto for MOST - not all - most of his tactics..why ? because we were successful....i never acknowledged "ugly football" and all that nonsense...its about the "W" thats all anyone remembers....my complaint has always been NOT that greece should try and emulate Spain or Brazil....it was about ottos slections (haristeas/wrong guys on the wing/lack of abiltiy to adjust to game situatuaions see sweden.etc) and within that complaint, resided my desire to see an offensive "capability", not necessarily an offensive style....if you go back and read my stuff - (if u have insomnia do it - it will put you right to sleep) you will see that i always argued with those who said before euro 2008 that we had more "firepower"....i always said without a good set of mids that can push box tp box, even the best strikers are useless because they have no support.....

my main complaint was always that otto killed the mangia for the team and their ability to "flip AN offensive" switch either because - and i dont know the answer maybe you do since you know alot more about the game having played it - either becuase he demanded they stayback, or the players were not confident doing it or they did not know to change midstream, etc etc idont know...

but to play for the tie all teh time, sit back like sitting ducks absorbing fearless offensive pressure and hope to counter and win 1-0, was really shown not to be an effective blueprint especially when the rest of the world figured it out....and to ottos credit, he still managed results, albeit modest ones, with wrong player out of position, no offensive creativity, playing 10 guys back and avraaam on the team (had to throw that in)...but that blueprint wont get you to semi finals, or finals. you have to be able to score, if for no other reason keep the other team honest and keep their players back.

so, u c, i realized when otto was gone, even before then, he would be missed....i said a long time ago...but, the fact is his time was up...i always envisioned greece as a poor mans italy....the 04 team was that....you could argue that team had an offensive capability even with the defense first mentality...HOW? well, when you need a goal, you go and get one...good teams can do that....ottos regime we very rarely could do that...rarely...so i just want a team that can go and get a goal when they need it...thats not necessarily playing offensive soccer, its more smart, good off the ball movment, opportunistic attacks of the open spaces, etc. etc. etc. thats what i always wished they could do....

u can argue that today, becuase we weer playing more offensive, we got a goal first and then serbia had to play catch up.....well, that where u need to go u 3-0 becuase the other team is now pushing more guys forward....thats where we failed miserably today...we went into defensive mode with guy s that are not as good defensively, and a team that was not unified defensively...

but i am willing to sit back and see how santos approaches things...but so far he used this friendly to do precisely what friendly is meant to do...

but for me defense wins....every sport rewards and appreciate it..its harder to do well and must be successful 99.9999 percent of the time...santo just has to figure out how to balance tight D with a more opportunistic offense that can keep the other team honest and not allow them to push forward all the time with no fear of getting scored on....

sorry u asked, huh? jajajajajajaja...any lets see what happens. im sure we will all have something to say about it....

[Euro2004]

That was a brillant entry manga!

[zenon]

Your being too negative Euro in my opinion.

It was the first game under the new manager there are bound to be teething problems. All things considered they played well away from home against one of the best teams in Europe.

I would hate to think that the Ott period would be regarded as the golden age of Greek football.

Winning 2004 was fantastic but the style of play and the negative attitude I would be glad to see the back of.

The Golden age of Greek football will be the next world cup when they beat Brazil 4-3 in the final!!!!!

[Euro2004]

Zenon Serbia didn't get out of the group stages at the World Cup, they are not one of the best teams in Europe. Aside from the result i can't see the positives. We were completely outplayed. They hit the woodwork twice and should have had a penalty, not to mention all the other chances they had. I'm willing to give Santos a crack at the whip but let's not pretend we displayed, or are even capable of displaying, top quality attacking football. We need to be a defensive team with attacking capabilities when necessary. Like i've said before, and following his post Manga21 is with me on this, i wasn't against Otto's formations and tactics as such, it was the squad selection that limited us. I was hoping we'd remain solid and defensive but with new blood coming in.

As for Rehaggel's achievements:

- We won Euro 2004

- We acquired the highest number of points ever in a European qualifying campaign for Euro 2008 (Won 10, drew 1, lost 1)

- We qualified for our first World Cup in 16 years.

- We won our first ever game at a World Cup.

- We climbed from something like 80th in the world to top 10 (i think?) in FIFA rankings at one stage and consistently hovered in top 15.

These are unbelievable achievements! No manager will ever surpass that, EVER! It was simply the end of his cycle. It was time to move on, but let's not undermine the guy. He was and will always be a national wonder.

[Irlandos]

In the 70 years prior to King Otto we qualified for the finals of 2 major tournaments: Euro 1980, WC 1994 :tdown:

In the 10 or so years with King Otto we qualified for the finals of 3 major tournaments: Euro 2004, Euro 2008, WC 2010. :)

We went from having 11 individuals not having the foggiest idea what their teammates were doing to a TEAM :o

Plus, we were European CHAMPIONS between 2004 and 2008 :tup:

Not to mention that the King accomplished this without a single player of Bebis or Domazos or Hatzipanagis ball-handling skills, a single striker of the calibre of Mavros, Nestoridis or even Sideris and with no all-around ballplayers that could compare to Papaioannou or Koudas!!!

[gcp]

Here we go again with the "king" Otto malarkey! What is it with you guys cherry picking Otto's few bright spots of an otherwise terrible NT performance? Zagorakis and the rest of the team won 2004 not Otto, he was just raking in the millions. Why do you not remember him highfiving the Swede while he's team was losing from his sheer ineptness? Why don't you remember the abysmal performances game after game and the tesara from the Turks inside Greece for god's sake, and the wins by the skin of their teeth? Why don't you remember that he quit and stayed in SA while his team returned to Greece with their heads down to their ahamna?

Give Santos a chance would ya? And quite mentioning Ottos name, are you out to piss me off all over again?

[gcp]

I didn't watch the game guys so my questions maybe lightweight but I'm a bit perplexed with the events. How can we expect different results if the lineup was the usual cast of characters, plus no Mitroglou in front of the opposing goals, is he not as good as everyone makes him out to be? I also read that Ninis was subed, did he not perform, again? Trying to make sense of it all.....

Zenon, apto stoma sou kai stou theou t'afti!! Nothing would make me happier than for Ellas to beat Brazil in the 2014 WC final 'cause I plan to be there with my Brazilian wife's family in toe and would love to be able to verbaly bitch-slap them for once, since all these years I've taken it up the shorts from them :tdown:

[mangas21]

thnx euro...irlando, very well said.....

look no coach is perfect....and otto had his fleas...but u can intellectualize it all you want, you cant argue with the results the team accomplished under his guidance....now, did he do some politically incorrect things, yes...but it does not negate what he accomplished.....in my opinion, his greatest achievement was to teach a bunch of "greeks" to put themselves second and the the team first....and by allowing them, the nation, the powers that be in greek football, etetc. to LIVE and TASTE a significant tournament victory and a few other successes, that experience of winning and of success as a team should pay dividends for all other teams to follow.....

nothing breads success like success.......the greek player M U S T walk onto the field confident and without fear of any opponent....otto failed here i think because by his own tactics he was always allowing the other team to dictate the pace and rythym of the game....all that santos has to do is allow for tactics and strategy that allows the greek team to dictate the pace of the game, to allow the team IMPOSE THEIR WILL ON THE GAME. How? be more opportunistic and aggressive moving forward - this will keep less of the opposition pushing forward thereby keeping them honest....if the opponent does not fear your offense, they will get waaaaaaaaay to comfy sending more people forward, waering out your defense and increasing their opportunities.....

[Euro2004]

Kyrgiakos has joined Amanatidis in retiring from international football!! :o :tdown:

[mangas21]

amanatidis? who cares....? thats like when basinas made an announcement in the greek paers "if i am asked, i wont play on teh NT"........lol......thats like me saying "if president obama calls me i wont pick up the phone because i dont like his health care policy"

i thought you have to actually have an international career to in order to retire from it' amanatidis has not sniffed the jock strap of an international invitation in ages.....what make him thin he would even be asked?

now kyriagos will be missed....

[Euro2004]

Don't forget that Amatidis was a key part of our squad before he got injured (he was in the team that played away in Switzerland, and he had a good game). He just returned from injury and was clearly hoping to be in the squad against Serbia (and he probably should have been).

[mangas21]

u really think he has a place on the squad? at whose expense? he didnt overly impress when he was in there....at least i dont recall anything noteworthy......but gain, with more supoort maybe he is more useful? apparently he got a the vibe that he has no shot....

[Euro2004]

Well Amantidis was impressive at times at left-forward in a 4-3-3. He worked very hard and defensively was very good for a forward. He wasn't "stand-out" too often but he always gave us at least a 7 out of 10 and let's not forget his winner in Turkey. So the question isn't so much whether he was a match-winner but rather who do we have that's better than him as a left forward in a 4-3-3. Even as an out-right striker i'd prefer Salpi, Samaras, Gekas... then?

So depending on the formation i do think he still has a place in the squad

[Genome]

Kyrgiakos? Damn!

[js1000]

Kyrgiakos? Damn!

they'll both be missed, i hope no one else follows...

[mangas21]

under santos, i see a team with alot of holes in it....most latin based coaches are not wired in the way that stresses cohesion, discipline, etc.....

if anything, the south american latin based style that was employed by urarguay, defensive with offensive punch, might be the best we can hope for....

for me, torisidis and beleive it or not samaras need to play big big roles in the new scheme that santos wants to employ....also we need nini to play box to box.....

its ironic in that we need to get more offensive minded younger guys to play more "two way" soccer.....where as before we were jumping up and down for "two way" but in the offensive direction

[Euro2004]

I agree with what you say except for I don't think Santos is typically Latin in his managerial approach. He has been Greek football for a long time and knows his stuff. I also don't think we have the style of players needed for a Latin American "defensive with offensive punch" approach. Out natural style is just too different. I also don't think Ninis is powerful enough to play box to box. He should either be on the right or behind the front man. If Salpi is going to keep playing up front id rather see Ninis on the right. I def agree about the "holes" though but let's just give the guy a chance and see how will go.

Following Ketsbaia's horrible treatment in Greece I have a feeling that he would love to spoil the party and Georgia will be highly motivated. I'd like to see how Santos' tactics adapt to a team giving their all to spoil the party, particularly because it's the sort of team that Otto's Greece would always easily beat

[mangas21]

hey euro, u think santos greece can play the same way as otto's greece?

also, do u think otto demanded that guys stay back? or did the players stay back on their own?

i ask this because the sweden game is a great illustration of a team having no answer to a tactical challenge....does otto say "dont cross this line, period" or does he give them latitude to attack and they just never had the confidence to do it? even after teh half the team had no answer..how much is player, how much is coach?

i never could discern just how much was ottos's demand vs. the players inability to "shift on the fly"......

re: ninis, do u mean he is "light on the ball"? or he needs to hit the weight room....? either way his skills are useless without support....

without attacking mids that go box to box, we wont generate much offense..

great point about georgia - those teams, the latvias of the world, etc. we handle pretty easily....

[Euro2004]

Hi mate. It's abit early to be talking about Santos' Greece but based on what we saw against Serbia i feel that that team is incapable of defending in like Otto's Greece did. Alot of people criticised Greece's performance against Argentina but Santos' Greece would have copped 6 against them.

i never could discern just how much was ottos's demand vs. the players inability to "shift on the fly"

I remember you made this point a while back and i was always fascinated by it because it's such a valid point to consider. Personally I think the 2 are intertwined. Before Otto we were abysmal, he came in and dropped many of our best players to create a new defensive Greece and it worked. Since then the players seemed to believe in Otto's system. I liken it to a people that witness a miracle and then adopt a religion :) So i think it's a bit of both. The Sweden game was abysmal, but on the other hand in Turkey we were defensive with blistering counter-attacks and Otto said that the actual system in those games was the same. That proves that the players have alot to answer for. I also believe that many of the players have started to rest on their laurels.

Seitaridis, Katsouranis, Haristeas, Dellas, and Fyssas all took a new mental approach to the game post-euro 2004: "we'll always be heroes now, let's chill!". Then you have players like Karagounis and Stelios who still worked hard but lost that killer instinct in my opinion, while many of the new-boys were a bit lazy: Samaras and Tziolis in particular. So post-Euro 2004 the whole mentality changed, and that is the players' fault as well as Otto's.

re: ninis, do u mean he is "light on the ball"? or he needs to hit the weight room....? either way his skills are useless without support....

without attacking mids that go box to box, we wont generate much offense

He's naturally too small to play box to box imo. With the exception of Xavi who is a phenomenon i can't think of another small midfielder that is box to box, and even Xavi is more of a defensive play-maker (like Pirlo or Scholes these days) than he is box-to-box. Box to box midfielders tend to be big, strong and have drive. Vieira in his day, Yaya Toure, Essien, Ballack, Gerrard, etc. Ninis is built more like a small attacking midfielder/winger: Iniesta, Nasri, Deco, Joe Cole, etc. They have a build and style more similar to Ninis'. A box-to-box midfielder has to have attacking, defensive, and physical capabilities. The only natural box to box midfielder that we have therefore is Katsouranis, but his lazy attitude and fall in fitness means he is ineffective now as a box to box midfielder. That's why i'd rather have Torosidis in midfield next to him. He's proved for Olympiakos he can play box-to-box. Ninis is better suited behind the front man or right wing in my opinion

[mangas21]

hmmmm....i'm gonna use the "see a miracle, adopt a religion" analogy next time im in court....thats was very poignant !!!

i would love to sit santos down and hear him elaborate on what he will do to allow greece to make the next up in the international arena. Is it a matter of just adding another player up front with a different formation? More to the point, i would like to hear what he saw as deficiencies tactically/selection wise/prep etc from otto, and why he believes his changes will produce better results....we know ottos opinion: greece players strengths are defensive - rugged, tough, physical play with smart counters....the 04 team was his personification 100% of his vision based on his assessments of greek talent....i think he was always waiting for that team to emerge over and over, and though we saw glimpses here and there it was ultimately a case of the rest of the world adapting to what otto was doing, his inability to counter as well as he could have, and the host of reasons you pointed out in your previous post.

your example about the sweden / turkey was a good one.And even more recent, consider s korea and nigeria...ok, a man down helped, but those were two diffrent teams.... How can a team look so good and yet so bad? It goes to the heart of what i have always viewed as one of the most interesting topics in sports (it actually transcends sports but is relevant here) That is the qualitative vs. quantitative debate. There are so many example I can think of in my athletic experience (pro basketball in europe three years after college) and to a lesser level baseball, where the most successful athletes were not the ones with the best quantitative or measurable skills. For example gys like wayne gretsky (not teh fasest skater or stick handler) or Larry bird (slow white guy who coouldnt jump over a phone book) were tops in their sports because they had the "soft skills" down - qualitative excellence...seeing the game before it happened...and, then DICTATING THE PACE AND FLOW OF THE GAME based on this advantage.

i think in greece case, and soccer in general, of course speed, dribbling, jumping help your cause...but how many guys do we know that were fast (ardizoglou/donis) just off the the top of my head who crapped out....? in soccer, and i qualify this by saying i never played anything close to organized soccer (i should have) so my perspective is limited by that - but i think in soccer being two steps ahead, knowing where is the ball is going can make up for being a half step slower, or one dribble lesser....attacking the open spaces, off the ball tactics, etc - i think those things can be taught even at this level. U cant teach speed or athletic ability - but u can create better fitness, smarter collective team play, AND DEMAND 100% effort everytime u step onto the field...i think your point is a great one about lazyness factor - look all teams take it easy here and there and judging from greece previous results i would say that effort has a lot to do with why they were inconsistent....

santos's biggest challenge in my estimation is to coach greece to impose their will on the games - force the otehr team to adapt to the things we are good at, and strike some fear in the other team by his "more offensive focus"......

otto taught the guys whats its like to be winners....huge, very huge....no substitue for that....now santos has to re-train the mentality to play a different style and to adopt another religion while still maintaining the cohesiveness that is absolutely critical in international competition...

thanks for indulging me, the caffeine has worn off...time for another cup...

[Clover22]

hmmmm....i'm gonna use the "see a miracle, adopt a religion" analogy next time im in court....thats was very poignant !!!

i would love to sit santos down and hear him elaborate on what he will do to allow greece to make the next up in the international arena. Is it a matter of just adding another player up front with a different formation? More to the point, i would like to hear what he saw as deficiencies tactically/selection wise/prep etc from otto, and why he believes his changes will produce better results....we know ottos opinion: greece players strengths are defensive - rugged, tough, physical play with smart counters....the 04 team was his personification 100% of his vision based on his assessments of greek talent....i think he was always waiting for that team to emerge over and over, and though we saw glimpses here and there it was ultimately a case of the rest of the world adapting to what otto was doing, his inability to counter as well as he could have, and the host of reasons you pointed out in your previous post.

your example about the sweden / turkey was a good one.And even more recent, consider s korea and nigeria...ok, a man down helped, but those were two diffrent teams.... How can a team look so good and yet so bad? It goes to the heart of what i have always viewed as one of the most interesting topics in sports (it actually transcends sports but is relevant here) That is the qualitative vs. quantitative debate. There are so many example I can think of in my athletic experience (pro basketball in europe three years after college) and to a lesser level baseball, where the most successful athletes were not the ones with the best quantitative or measurable skills. For example gys like wayne gretsky (not teh fasest skater or stick handler) or Larry bird (slow white guy who coouldnt jump over a phone book) were tops in their sports because they had the "soft skills" down - qualitative excellence...seeing the game before it happened...and, then DICTATING THE PACE AND FLOW OF THE GAME based on this advantage.

i think in greece case, and soccer in general, of course speed, dribbling, jumping help your cause...but how many guys do we know that were fast (ardizoglou/donis) just off the the top of my head who crapped out....? in soccer, and i qualify this by saying i never played anything close to organized soccer (i should have) so my perspective is limited by that - but i think in soccer being two steps ahead, knowing where is the ball is going can make up for being a half step slower, or one dribble lesser....attacking the open spaces, off the ball tactics, etc - i think those things can be taught even at this level. U cant teach speed or athletic ability - but u can create better fitness, smarter collective team play, AND DEMAND 100% effort everytime u step onto the field...i think your point is a great one about lazyness factor - look all teams take it easy here and there and judging from greece previous results i would say that effort has a lot to do with why they were inconsistent....

santos's biggest challenge in my estimation is to coach greece to impose their will on the games - force the otehr team to adapt to the things we are good at, and strike some fear in the other team by his "more offensive focus"......

otto taught the guys whats its like to be winners....huge, very huge....no substitue for that....now santos has to re-train the mentality to play a different style and to adopt another religion while still maintaining the cohesiveness that is absolutely critical in international competition...

thanks for indulging me, the caffeine has worn off...time for another cup...

Definitely sounds like you drink too much coffee.

[Euro2004]

Thanks for that post manga :) I never thought I'd read a post discussing quantitative vs qualitative issues in football :tup: You also played pro-basketball? That's so cool! Living in the UK basketball isn't huge here so have only played a handful of times. Once i collected the ball out wide and threw it backwards over my head. It was a 3-point swish (if that's the correct terminology :unsure: ) and i thought, "ahh, this sport isn't so hard!!" :P I got into the school team and played for about a month until the training days started clashing with our football (soccer) training days so I quit. But we were beating all the other English schools with ease and we starting thinking we were like the US's dream team!... Then in an exchange programme our school invited Greek school teams and Lithuanian school teams to come and play us in a variety of sports. Both basketball teams beat us by more than 100 points :LOL:

Back to Greece, everything you say is correct but one thing that disappointed me post-2006 was the lack of passion on display. We were very unlucky not to qualify for the 2006 World Cup, particularly as we had a difficult group. However after that we just didn't play with any passion at major tournaments. It's almost as if they thought, "we've made it here, job done". That's the biggest thing that needs to change. We need to re-discover the winning mentality. To do that we need to bring in new faces if we can't motivate the old-guard. However like i've said earlier, personally i wouldn't change Otto's defensive formations, i would just bring in the right players for the positions. As you say, players that are competant in attacking.

Personally i think in recent years the players that potentially have a grasp "qualitative excellence" haven't utilised it with the correct amount of will and passion, in the meantime we've lacked quantitative ability. So the challenge now is bring in more players with quantitative ability, while accepting that overall we'll always rely more of qualitative excellence. So the key is to combine that with passion, self-belief and an unquenchable thirst for success. We have lacked that in recent years. Tactically speaking though Otto's formations were spot on.

Please forgive me if i'm not making sense. i've been working for 24 hours straight without much sleep prior to that. I'm like a zombie right now

[mangas21]

u making plenty of sense....and given the 24 hours, plenty of dollars and sense/cents...jajaj..

anyway, yeah i have story like that - being 1st generation greeks, we naturally huddled together with other similarly circumstanced greek families, ostensibly near the church...it had a k-9 school with all the first gen kids of theses families...and our athletic director (which back then was a reluctant diner-dad with a whistle around his neck), endeavored to get sports going, soccer being the preferred choice of course. Bunch of us took to hoops and baseball, but we were woefully inept from a pedigree point of view given our status. Lots of quantative, but no qualitative soft skills....

so we get into a basketball goya league and, 5th grade as our launching pad, we start playing other greek teams on what was, looking back, a buffoonery level. But we were havin fun... So this AD decides we need to play better teams to get better...logical, no? so he schedules us with a bunch of testosterone filled, facial hair sprouting 5th grader from the a school near the hood, Gate of Heaven. Champions for the past seven years.... Well, its not hard to guess the ending of the story and the game, but we lost 88-2. And our 2 points came frm a hook shot from the corner by the shortest guy on the squad and, it grazed the hanging lights lights which changed the trajectory just enough for it to go in....... :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

athletically we were competitive, but we had no clue what we were doing......i just wish i ran into those punks later on for some sweet payback, :box: :box: :gr: :gr: but it was not to be....

[Euro2004]

:LOL: :LOL: Ahhh man, that had me in tears! What a funny story!

At least you guys were a level below though. Have you ever been solely responsible for costing your team against poorer opposition? When I was at Crystal Palace's youth team we went on a tour of Scotland. First game, Dundee. We lost 4-3 but i scored a hatrick and was man of the match so i was pleased with my performance. Next game Glasgow Rangers we won 2-1 and I scored the winner. Next game we have Dumbarton, if we win we qualify. Should be straight forward right? Well, at this game Parma and PANATHINAIKOS(!) had scouts attending so i thought, this is my chance to shine and move to Italy or Greece! Dreaming as kids do. Anyway, we went 1-0 down after 1 minute! We dominated possession from then on but i missed 3 one on ones (hitting the bar on every occasion!) I then dived in the box to win a pen, it was such an amazing dive even i was convinced it was a penalty! The defender even apologised to me! I basically drew the contact, made myself go wobbly and fell, Karagounis style! No penalty given though! It was so convincing i felt robbed! :LOL: Then our keeper got injured, i went in goal because we were out of subs. We scored twice in 2 mins and with 10 mins to go we were qualifying. Then the bad day became catastrophic! They had a shot from 25 yards that took an awkward bounce and nutmegged me!!! :o Rumour has it that one of our players (who was Cypriot) walked up to the PAO scout and said jokingly, "poli m#$%!s autos e?" and the PAO scout nodded :LOL:

That's why i frequently defend Charisteas. I know what it's like to be at fault despite giving everything, after all it's not his fault he's crap! :LOL:

[mangas21]

dood, even if it was MY HOOK shot, it cant top that story.....ueffff.....jajajajajaja

when you've been there, lived it in some way, shape or form, u acquire a sensibility that gives you more insights as to what's going on...

let me tell ya thats impressive my friend, but know you know what otto means when he says "in soccer you never know".........when the ball does not want to go in, it does not want to go in.......i've used this excuse for myself waaaaaaay more times than i care to admit....jajajajaj

and regarding haristeas, i respect that guy alot...he is what he is, but u can never say he does not bust his assssss every minute he is on the field....u cant knock a guys skills/quants....but u can knock a lack of effort...no excuse for that....