[athinaios]

Today, the rumours about a court-ordered stoppage of the work for the new PAO stadium are no more. A high court has accepted the petition of 131 citizens and ordered the stoppage until the case is re-examined later in March.

Well, things are more complicated than that.... PAO owners say that the work will continue. The question remains the ..shopping center! Hmmmm. It's a total mess.

[MadBoy13]

Oi 132 filoi ton kormoranon!

1.

[cyberfish]

Thanks MadBoy for posting this list of idiots. They are the "clueless generation" of Greece; people who's brain reaches as far as denying and destroying progress in the name of nothing. Their arguments about protecting the ecology and the economy of Athens or Votanikos would be laughable if they didn't have serious consequences for so many people. Only 4 of the 131 live in Votanikos.

I read an article somewhere (sorry I don't have a link) that argued that Tsipras and his posy filed the lawsuit because they wanted the attention and because denial for everythg is their main ideology. They did so because the didn't believe that the court would stop the work!

Now that their bluff was called and the court stopped the project they are reeling. Hense the constant drivel and attempt to muddy the waters with interviews expressing their support for the stadium. Synaspismos and the "131" have been running around the media like wet puppies talking about their opposition only to the shopping mall. They are used to a media that reduces everything down to oversimplified and often misleading arguments. Their behavior indicates that they are afraid. They are afraid that they did something stupid and their credibility and future is now at stake.

Here is the latest Kaklamanis interview that clears things up: http://www.sport-fm.gr/article/162092

For the friends who can't read Greek well, here is the lowdown version of what the Mayor of Athens said:

Tsipras says now that he supports building the stadium, but when the city of Athens voted initially to buy the land where the stadium was to be erected, Tsipras' club (Synaspismos) voted "NO".

The "131" say they are in support of the stadium, but when the contract between PAE and the stadium was signed, they filed an injunction.

How the Mall is connected with the stadium: It was based on an older law (1997) that allowed the city to develop city plots by exchanging land for coverage ratio. If the city can'tafford (or wantes) to pay for the land, they can give it to a developer in exchange for extra land. In this case, Vovos bought the land (where the mall is to be built) and additional land around it and gave it to the city of Athens to own.

What's in it for Vovos? He gets to build twice as much as ordinary laws would allow. What's in it for the city? They get more land for free. What's in it for the city? Development, investment, jobs, prosperity. The city also gets to upgrade one of the most horrible areas of Athens (literary a dump).

What's in it for Panathinaikos? They get the land for free (for 40 years) and they pay for the stadium only in an upgraded area.

If this were a forest or a green park, I could see people objecting to the project. But Votanikos is such a dump that it's hard to take people seriously when they invoke "environmental" concerns to base their objections.

In a nutshell, if the mall is not built, then the stadium can't be built. It's simple as that, and if anyone (Tsipras and the 131) implying otherwise they are lying.

If the mall can't be built, the deal with Vovos is void. If Vovos does not get his building then the city does not get the land from Vovos.

Tsipras and the 131 are misleading the masses when they say "the stadium can be built".

They probably elude to the fact that someone (the city or the PAE) can go now and buy the land outright and then they can own and build the stadium as they please. Sure, this can happen, but it can take years for the final supreme court decision to be issued (they still write things by hand in Greek courts, so it takes up to a year!), and then it could take more years for the new paper work to be filed, and then I am sure these 131 will file another lawsuit for some other reason.

I also read somewhere that these 131 are the same ones who objected to the old proposal to build the PAO arena at Goudi. Can someone confirm this?

[athinaios]

I'm also very sensitive to destroying something in order to give gifts to private interests (even if it's a club I support). However, Votanikos is a dump, and the PAO new home & the other improvements to the landscape, plus the shopping center will be a great improvement for the area and the residents there.

Geesh.

The problem I have is that when PAO moved out of Leoforos in the early 1980s, it was obvious that the old home needed to be replaced. Leoforos, (historic and all)didn't have enough space around it to be improved or that a new stadium to be built. They should have started their efforts back in the 1980s... buy the land, start the process.

Anyway, if it's possible they should buy the frikin land outright. Forget about getting it for free.. I know this will add more time to the completion, but can anyone tell us if the current snag can be resolved soon. I don't want to be discussing the same case a year from now... :angry:

[cyberfish]

Sad news about the stadium. After all the excitement I can't believe that we are now closer to forgetting about building the stadium.

http://www.sport.gr/default.asp?pid=4&aid=33706

Apparently there are objections that were accepted by the court's initial review about the mall AND about the stadium. No details have been published but it doesn't look good.

Congratulations to the "131 citizens". Thanks to their narrow mind Elaionas has been saved will continue to be a shanty town in the heart of Athens for another generation. Congratulations to Tsipras too. He managed to undermine his little political career with his idiotic blind ideology.

[cyberfish]

I found a better link with more details:

http://www.gazzetta.gr/content/view/26871/2/

The way I understand it, Vovos bought most of the land from the Bank of Greece and donated part of it to the city of Athens to build a stadium for Panathinaikos. Panathinaikos was then going to lease the stadium for (I think) 50 years. Why was Vovos so magnanimous? Because the law gave him thus the right to build twice as much a structure as the zoning law allows for the area.

I gather, from the little I am fed from the newspapers, that the court ruled that the law was passed specifically to accommodate one individual and (probably rightly) is planning to declare the law unconstitutional.

So why doesn't the city (well, really the taxpayers) buy the land itself? That's easy. Because they either don't have that kind of money, or they would not want to spent it for this project.

According to this article, the city can declare "eminent domain" and then Vovos would be forced to give it up for some sort of token amount. This obviously would take years to be sorted out with court after court case and appeals parading until the end of our little life.

Of course, the question that comes to my mind is, why not Panathinaikos (PAE and KAE) and the city jointly buy the land and get the project going? Or, if Panathinaikos can't be part of the sale, why not donate the money to the city to allow them to by the land in exchange for more favorable lease terms?

Truth is, I have not seen the court arguments and it is conceivable that there are way too many problems than anyone would want to deal with.

[athinaios]

Typical Greek mess. From the beginning it was messy. There's a big group of rich owners who should have bought the land out right. Build a SOCCER stadium for the soccer team. No leases, partners, this and that, and whatever. Complicated arrangements and deals aren't for the Greek reality... too many things can get snagged.

OAKA is not a proper football stadium. Without excusing our dreadful performances over the years, I have to say that AEK and PAO not having a proper home (

[cyberfish]

A glimmer of hope in the news today. Initial reports indicate that the supreme court has decided that the construction project law is constitutional!

We'll wait for the final decision in June, but these leaked reports from the upper courts seem to always be accurate.

http://www.sport-fm.gr/article/172368

This is a page full of food for thought :)

Ten Cate trying to lure Pizzaro to Pao. Pizzaro is on loan to Bremen from Chelsea.

Antoniou watched Lewandowski in Poland after visiting England/Germany/Italy. I will fall off my chair if we complete our transfers early this year.

Also, Antoniou is negotiating the sale of Vintra and Mantzios

[cyberfish]

http://www.gazzetta.gr/content/view/33978/2/

More leaked court information indicates that building the mall will be deemed unconstitutional. Which means problems for the stadium.

The way I understand this complex issue, Vovos bought the land where the stadium is to be built and donated it to the city of Athens. In exchange, Vovos got permission to build twice as much mall as is normally permitted. This was possible through a law that allows such thing. This law was disputed and this latest report indicates the supreme court found the law unconstitutional.

If Vovos can't build the mall he wants he will ask for his land donation back. Consequently there are two options for the stadium:

1 - Pay Vovos to buy the land. Problem with this option is that Vovos can ask for an arm and a leg now that the city plans are in the open. It's one thing to buy land in an slump like he did, and another to buy land in an area you know the city is about to build the biggest athletic center.

2 - The city of Athens confiscates the land under some law that allows it (ie. eminent domain or similar such law) and compensates Vovos. The problem with this option is that unless Vovos is happy with the compensation he will sue the city for sure, leading the project into years of oblivion in court rooms.

Option one is the one that could untangle the project and allow it to start fairly soon. But who is going to pay all that money when our share holders are busy working the media for personal gain, and can't even reach the goal of selling 80m shares?

I am beginning to think that I won't be able to see a new PAO stadium in my lifetime, or I'll see it when I will be very old. More reason to make sure when it starts that good handicap accessibillity is in place :LOL:

[athinaios]

This is so screwed up! I don't understand why PAO--the football club or its owners--didn't go out and buy the godam land, get the permission and build the freaking stadium!!!!!

Then lease space to any developer, shops, etc... Not the other way around!!!!

Having a proper home gives a boost to the team and increases fan participation. Building a new home, in my opinion, should have been a higher priority than ANY player transfers. Buy a home first, then buy players. ....and we've seen how they spent the money on players the last TEN years!!! :angry:

[cyberfish]

Apparently it's way too expensive to buy the land. That is, if the owner wants to sell it.

Stadium income alone would not be enough to get a return on such a huge investment for the land. The mall would make the whole thing work by bringing in the cash for the big investors, and the taxes for the city.

The newspapers that talk about the supreme court decision (stadium ok - mall not ok) as if it's good news, don't know what they are talking about. The lawsuit never challenged the stadium. The 32 filed an injunction against the mall. All work stopped because both mall, stadium, and Ap. Nikolaidis are interconnected.

I don't think it's as easy as "buying the land" or even claiming "eminent domain". If they buy the land from Vovos and build the stadium they probably will lose money without the mall. If they claim eminent domain and confiscate the land, same thing happens, plus Vovos will sue them until next century.

PAE boasting they can start building the stadium now and pressing the city to give them "guarantee" is just empty talk. The city can't guarantee anything because any citizen can take them to court as we saw.

The only way this thing could move forward would be for Vovos to agree to build a smaller mall. He probably would do that but it has to make financial sense.

[athinaios]

But why Vovos was able to buy the land and PAO couldn't?? That was my point.

Of course I realize that there's got to be other revenue from commercial development.... Which makes the whole matter crazier.... Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't that area in Votanikos really awful? A new development and nice additions would benefit the city and the residents. :unsure:

I see your points about this new ruling. :(

[cyberfish]

I don't know why the PAE didn't buy the land Athinaie. I suspect we didn't have the money or someone bought it before hand and would not sell. The papers don't give much info and it has been a challenge piecing the events together. I gather this three-way deal was too good for everyone, so everyone jumped on it. The city upgraded a slump and increased revenues, PAO got a stadium and income with minimum investment, and Vovos got his mega money-making venue. It's not a bad deal capitalistically speaking. To me, asking the city (the taxpayers) to pay for the land or the stadium is ludicrous. Having been at Votanikos, I fail to understand how the city would be hurt by building a mall even a very large one. The place is an embarrassment to the country.

In any case, your point about what's good for the city should have prevailed here, but there is a small group of people who, blinded by ideology, would oppose any progress. It's a Greek thing. "We'll gouge out our own eyes just to prove we are right". A huge embarrassing area would be upgraded, but some object to the size of the mall. I read they even claimed environmental reasons (cormorants) which is laughable.

[cyberfish]

There you go:

http://www.sport-fm.gr/article/177182

Vovos will ask for 280m Euro for the land and the buildings he had to demolish.

EraSport reports that the city of Athens could pay Vovos the money (hope to agree on a lesser amount), with the idea that the investment will be returned once the stadium is built and PAE PAO begins paying their lease.

If Vovos and Athens come to an agreement on the amount, the stadium could be built fairly quickly.

[athinaios]

yep, I read this today.. :angry:

Cyber, you got it right... and all those idiots who call themselves "journalists" didn't see it when few days ago were saying that the new PAO home's construction was imminent.

How can PAO or the city go ahead when Vovos asks for $280 in damages (correctly, in my opinion) or when he can take back the land because the other side hasn't met its obligations!!! :blink:

It's a total mess....

Think all these years we've been talking about a new stadium... where to build it, and then....

I'm disgusted. :tdown:

[cyberfish]

The only real possibility for the stadium to be built is if Athens and Vovos come to a quick agreement on the value of the land. Any attempt to build anything without Vovos' consent will be met with decades of lawsuits.

I can see the city buying the land for a price that Vovos calls (probably about 150-180 million), Pao builds the stadium, and Vovos builds the mall that's allowed.

However, I did read somewhere that the decision from the courts will put some limits to the size of the stadium as well. We'll know more when they publish the arguments.

I am not sure what the complications would be from changing the original deal though. The entire project hinged on legislation passed specifically to accommodate the complex relationships between the parties and to bypass zoning limitations. I suspect it's not as simple as ignoring parts of the existing legislation and modifying others without lengthy arguments at the Parliamentary level. I hope I am wrong.

The only consolation is that Tsipras (the leader of the pseudo-leftist party, Synaspismos) has been feeling the pressure that threatens to derail his short political career. He has been going out of his way to appear as if he is in favor of the stadium.

Man, I hope this stadium has good handicap access when it's finally built because most of us will be rolling to the games in our wheelchairs :LOL:

[athinaios]

I have to say that either by accident or intention, only gavroi have been completely accommodated and quickly got their new home. This has resulted into extra points every season. [in addition to the courts, refs, and other factors]

PAO and AEK have been in a disadvantage all these years.

Maybe we should have gone to Elliniko instead... :whistle: :blink:

[Omonoia9]

So what is the latest on this? I read somewhere it's supposed to be open by Fall 2010 and a naming rights deal has been struck with Marfin

[Crazy]

So what is the latest on this? I read somewhere it's supposed to be open by Fall 2010 and a naming rights deal has been struck with Marfin

Last week they got the licence that it makes it final that the stadium can be built but today Mr.Vovos company came out with this statement:

“