athinaios

I think we agree that the debt has to be reduced (haircut) if Greece has a chance of economic growth. However, as I often say, let me pay off the entire Greek debt. Poof. It's gone. Now, how many of you think that without any meaningful reforms, Greece will accumulate another huge debt..... This is the crux of the matter. In my estimate, the corruption is so deep that only an outside force could make Greece reform its political & economic system. We all agree that governments have been irresponsible and corrupt. But how about the people? Almost everyone has milked the system one way or another. OK, I also agree, if a system is so corrupt, it's a total mess you can't escape it...

In the video clip above, Stephen Haseler (the third guest) makes the most sense to me. Europe has to write off about $50 billion of Greek debt right away--more if Greece behaves-- so the Greek economy has a chance to repay past lenders and grow at the same time. This is provided they want to keep Greece in the eurozone. Secondly, the stupid austerity (indeed, conservative) economic policies by those currently in charge of the European finances, and IMF, must stop. In order to get out of a slump austerity isn't the way. But, the way out has to be prudent, that is economic policies that create jobs and commercial activities, and other measures that help stability in society. A smart rescue plan, in my opinion, would be based on: "haircut" of debt; demands from meaningful state reforms in Greece; repayment tied to economic growth (both parties would have an interest in growing the Greek economy, and the more growth the more repayments of debt). My sense is that the lenders want to punish Greece which has cheated, lied, and wasted tons of borrowed money in the past. Of course, there's no trust in Greek governments. Some of the suggestions of Greece were, give us money now and at some point in the future we'll fix the ills of our system. The reply is, no. There's no mutual trust. Sometimes it helps to examine an issue from someone else's point of view. Let's say it was Turkey (or Fyrom) in Greece's position, and Greece was like Iceland or Holland, etc. What do you think Greeks would be saying today regarding Turkey's mismanagement?.... PS. Yes, the Euros don't like SYRIZA. They say, look, your Greek governments signed loans, under rather great terms, and now Syriza/Chipras get elected basically saying they won't recognize the country's obligations. If you weren't Greek, could you be agreeing?

Although it's nice to bring such players to Greece, that brings excitement to the fans, I'm old enough to know that these moves are hit-or-miss. Most of these transfers turned bad. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited about the club trying to raise the level and be more competitive. Yet, I want to see how big name players apply themselves and what contributions bring to the team, instead of cashing in their fame and collect $$ while they're semi-retired. Now, especially given the condition of the Greek economy, the horrible state of the league, the lesser status of Greek teams in Europe (and their chances of success there), it raises a question as to why a great player might want to come to a Greek club. Gilberto, Rivaldo, and a few others at the end of their careers, when they couldn't play for other big euro clubs came and did great. Others, like Sisse and Berg come because they had been on a slump and want to get a chance to climb out. They also do well. But, most of the big names have been failures. Hoping for the better outcome.... Good luck to Essien. By the way, is that the new PAO jersey by Puma. I want one! It's different and interesting!

My goodness, this is utterly ridiculous. Not only it's too technical for most people to understand, but it's not clear of what the voters are asked. It shows amateurs--and that's the Greek government--playing with fire in my opinion. Wow. Rather irresponsible too to do it at this point. Also, since there are ongoing negotiations (in the last couple days, the US and Europe said there are other options available) and possible developments, plus other factors (ie. missing the payment to the IMF tomorrow and the implications of it), this is a terrible referendum. It'll backfire on the government, and because this move was without good planning, it's reckless... Already the law of unintended consequences is playing out.... tsk. PM Chipras seems unwilling to do what he was elected (and campaigned on) to do, that is negotiate better terms or declare bankruptcy and leave the euro and the European union. By the way, elections were the referendum 5 months ago. What's happening today, should have happened shortly after those elections (I'm not talking about the referendum), instead of squandering 5 months of "negotiations." On the other hand, the "troika" may have asked for some reasonable measures (reforming Greek law, taxes, transparency, etc), but its stupid severe austerity policies have made things much worse. They share a big part of this mess today.

This is a good article from The New York Times: The State of the Case Against FIFA http://nyti.ms/1LGsrsQ

The greatly devalued drachma will make Greek products much more competitive (cheaper), but this assumes Greece will have lots to export. However anything it'll import will be extremely expensive, which includes all everyday items Greeks are accustomed to having. Same with imported food stuffs. If the country produces enough food stuffs to feed itself, no problem. If... Now, they'd have to pay for imports with hard currency, because no one would accept a worthless currency for payment outside the country. Where do you get it? From exports and from tourism. Red Sherriff makes great points (above) about the tourist economy. Be careful what you wish for. There are many poor countries whose tourism industry is foreign-based. In other words, foreign investors come in and handle most of it. Yes, they employ locals thus creating jobs. Good. But, there are many poor countries who have great tourist destinations, some luxurious places for tourists to stay. Yet, why do you think the countries remain poor?.... What makes a country or a person poor? It's not a simple answer. It depends on the quality of life. And, in western societies it's largely maintaining/enhancing the welfare state--the services and the social safety net, education, health care, etc. Poor countries can't provide this safety net, which on the other hand is expected/demanded in western countries. Also, economic opportunity should be available to everyone not the investors; this doesn't mean the government has to employ everyone, but surely doesn't mean being employed in low-skill jobs at starvation wages. For all the rhetoric from Syriza and others about national independence, what became clear to them is that if Greece left the euro, there were NO good options, because there are systemic problems in Greece that would basically waste the one-time fix (going back to the drachma) for the reasons I just explained. Since NO political party is willing to do the tough decisions to correct the systemic problems, they actually prefer that those tough measures are dictated by the "troika." What the "memorandum" means is, you want our money, here are the conditions. You don't have to take this money, by the way. But, if you declare bankruptcy, don't come to us for help either. ... PS. I'm not suggesting that the troika's package deal is ideal or even correct.

It's disgusting with these "international organizations" who have been corrupt to the bone. Same with the Olympic Committee, etc. I'm happy that the US feds are doing something about it. Blatter, seems really sleazy to me, but the corruption is so deep that he'll be re-elected this Friday. I hope that UEFA takes a stand. The next World Cup was bought with bribes by a oil-rich country that has no history of football nor an infrastructure. UEFA members don't like that they have to make major changes in their leagues to field national teams to participate. I'm old enough to remember the talk about corruption and the bribes needed to secure the 1996 Olympic games, which Greece lost to Atlanta. All these big organizations are not really accountable to anyone. They're international mafia organizations. I hope they clean FIFA, who, by the way, made $1 billion while Brazil lost money after hosting the world cup last year.

Yes, we knew that Berg can win us a game, but Ninis' performance was impressive. I hope he's finding his groove. I still have a nagging question: Why PAO can win the domestic games against the better teams (more points than anyone in the top finishers) and still lose the title? Anyway, it's nice to see that in the playoffs, PAO is always the team that wins it. (am I wrong?)

Good points on both sides of the argument. However, let's assume Greece leaves the euro, and without discussing the effects of this action, this still is going to be one-time fix. Therefore, if there are systemic problems, soon the same problems will appear again. In other words, if I had a magic wand and waived off all of Greece's debt (not a single euro owned to lenders) tomorrow, I ask you, what do you think would happen in a couple years? Let's be honest...

Welcome. One of my favorite teams plays in your city :tup:

Great game, 3 points. In the next 5 games, 3 are at Leoforos, so things got started fine for PAO. But, the team got lucky, because Tripoli had several good chances in the first half and had they scored first, things could have been different. If any good offer comes, PAO will sell everyone other than Berg right now. The club still owes big money to past players, and there hasn't been an influx of money as far as I know. Gavroi spend more than the rest of the league combined. Of course, they've been getting the CL money, so I pays for them to be perpetual title holders in Greece. By the way, I blame Tzigger for allowing this to happen. He was the worst club owner by far in our history.

Oly is one of top spending teams in Europe! Actually there was an article recently that showed how the euro titles usually go to the top 1-3 spenders!! There are exceptions, but the rule stands. It's the same in soccer too.

Everyone who has lived or visited Greece for a long while can see a few things. Inefficiency and corruption, plus cheating on taxes (other the pensioners and salaried people who can't hide their income). This has to be fixed. I am familiar with the waste of tons of money Greece spends to maintain missions, trade offices, consulates & embassies. Overstuffed, costly, and with a bad attitude. And they get paid very good money as compared to those in Greece. But, even many of the latter report to "work" everyday and don't really work. The bottom line is this: if you want more money from lenders, there will be conditions, especially when you lied and misrepresented the facts in the past to get loans. I wouldn't lend my money to anyone who continues to have a lifestyle full of abuses and irresponsibility. I know that there's lots of discussion (here and in Greece) about the difference among the various political parties, but all are in agreement as to how to use the state as an extension of their patronage.

Oly has probably the highest budget among the top Euro teams. PAO is not a very strong team any longer. I'm afraid that we'll lose the domestic title this year. We need a better coach and a higher budget to compete at the top of euro league. We've struggled against small teams, and gavroi are getting stronger.

The problem is not repatriating those Turks. They can buy them out. A few wealthy Greek Cypriots would spend this money if it meant unification. These people are being used as leverage. A possible solution would be a federated state, but not like in the past when the two communities were separated economically, and politically. The northern Turkish Cypriots will not accept any deal that marginalizes them. Anyway, the biggest obstacle to reunification is Erdogan. He's a nationalist leader who has grandiose visions, like he's trying to emulate Putin. He is dangerous. I don't see him "giving up a piece of Turkey" as long as he's Turkey's leader. So, even if the Turkish-Cypriots would like a solution, he has to agree, and I don't see this happening now. The only chance would be if Europe was to offer a carrot to Turkey, though I don't see this happening either.

Yeah? How much income does he have though? That figure you cite may be houses, business holdings, etc. This wealth isn't necessarily liquefiable (turned into cash) on a whim. No businessman would sell assets & personal property to fund a club. Those who spend for their club have extra cash to burn. Rare species. Greek football has been plagued by "people of ill-repute" (like Psomiades, Beos, etc) who actually took money from their clubs, good political influence, and bankrupted their clubs. Loukas Barlos (funny, I don't know why I remember this) spend his fortune for his beloved AEK.

For me, unless the take titles away and even do what they did in Italy (dropped teams to lower divisions), if there's proven corruption or fixed games, there will be no true justice.

Energy independence is usually desired by most nations. In the US, fracking and traditional but more efficient oil usage has turned the US from a big importer to an exporter of oil. Greek govs would gladly exploit oil or natural gas if it means having serious income. But, not all oil extraction costs the same. Saudis get it very cheaply (probably you dig a meter and oil pops out), but Russia spends some $80 per barrel produced. What Greece should massively exploit is solar and wind energy as it has plenty of both.

The sports venues reflect the society at large. Corruption, inefficiency, hooliganism, and a few bosses controlling everything. What pains me is that they've been killing a football/soccer. I hope there's catharsis.... and the return of true fans to the stands to watch good teams and whereas games are played on the field not behind closed doors. Do you think Greece has too many soccer clubs? I mean, for the current situation of a bad economy, etc. Also, the gap between the big Greek teams and the rest is probably getting bigger. So, the smaller teams can't compete successfully. The same thing is happening in Europe over all. The top euro teams have budgets that allow them to buy players at $100 million (!!) while most other euro teams have budgets that don't exceed a few millions. Money may not be everything, but the wealthy teams seem to win year after year.

Russia doesn't have money. It banned Euro imports in order to conserve $$ (fewer western goods, less money needed to buy them). Russia cannot help Greece, because its economy is bad and getting worse, not only because of the western sanctions/embargo but primarily because the price of oil dropped 50% in one year. It costs Russia more to produce a barrel of oil (on average) that it sells in the open market! Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, makes money if the price is above $25-30/barrel. Russia depends on natural gas and oil for some 65% of its exports. It's still not a wealthy country. Per capita income is about $3,500/year, though this is misleading, because most of the wealth is heavily concentrated at the top elites. Aggression fueled by ultra-nationalism is Putin's best trump card.

It's not "my way" it's how I see reality. I may be wrong. There are no good realistic choices for Greece right now in my opinion. If I were the King of Europe my ..memorandum would be different, yet, I would still ask for conditions if I were to lend money to a someone who has been irresponsible and untrustworthy in the past. (OK, the various Greek governments were irresponsible, falsifying the books, stealing EC subsidies, and violating international agreements) Isn't true that when you declare bankruptcy, lenders stop giving you money? How are you going to buy the stuff you need? If you produce what you need, then you're good to go. But, Greece cannot even feed itself. How about energy needs? No one will accept drachmas, and no one will give credit to a bankrupt country for many years to come. Everything you import is going to be very, very expensive after you leave the euro, because the drachma will be greatly a devalued currency. Then people should ask themselves what goods & services they need to have a decent life.... But, they have to find a way to pay for what they need. As it's been the case since Greece joined the EC, it has been using/spending more than it's producing. This fundamental inballance remains and no solution under any scenario can solve this problem ...not until the country finds a way to live within its own means! Your exports are going to be cheap too, so you can sell lots since your products will become cheaper too. That's the positive aspect of going back to the drachma. Greece in the 1950s and 60s was a very poor country. Seriously poor, underdeveloped, suffering from political instability (the Civil War was militarily over but otherwise still going on). Many (if not most) streets in the capitol region were dirt roads, and many Greeks who had ..refrigerators often put them in the living room as a display item. The rural country was literally in the dark. Greek cinema depicted life of the time accurately--not necessarily the stories, but the background against which the movies were based. To say the "economy was developing at a record pace" maybe be true but deceptive..... if the starting point is so low, you can grow at 6-7% (GDP per year as Greece was doing then) and even though it sounds impressive it's doesn't make it an affluent country. [ie. let's say you're poor in the US today, earning $5,000 year. Next year you earn $6,000, an increase of 20%!!!. Are you not poor any longer?] The Greek economy in the 2 decades after WW2 got a boost from the Marshall plan, modernization (farm machinery, foreign investment in factories, etc), so the argument "rapid growth" is valid but.... When I said Greeks would not want to go back to those days (50s-60s), I didn't mean they wouldn't want the rate of economic growth of that period now, but I meant the conditions of poverty, the lack of goods & services. And, yes, no one would like the political extremism of the times. You also say that crisis like this one will hit Greece again in several decades from now. Well, let's say I feel generous today and paid all Greece's debt. Not a cent the country owes to anyone. How long before huge debts accumulate again? Unless, you argue that the enormous debts Greece accumulated since the revolution were not the result of domestic fiscal irresponsibility....

So, leaving the Euro and stop making payments equals declaring bankruptcy. This means no one would lend you money, that is hard currency. Or, loan sharks would ask for prohibitive rates, like 40%. This is what Greece was being offered in the open market when it went asking, before the ..troika came in. The troika came in because Greece couldn't finance itself by other means. These lenders put conditions before they gave Greece money. We can debate the wisdom of the conditions. But, whether Greece needed a bailout isn't much for debate. Now, let's say you don't like the conditions (memorandum/mnimonio) and you leave the euro. Question: where are you going to find the money to: buy food stuff buy oil/petrol buy other necessities the economy, consumers, the country needs to operate as a modern country (cars, military, machinery, medical techno & drugs, etc, etc) If you produce enough, at least enough food to sustain the population, then you may not need anything else. But Greece isn't producing the food stuffs it used to. It even imports potatos. If you consume more than you produce, if you require goods that can only be bought with hard currency, what do you do? (assuming no other country would be accepting drachmas....) This is the problem. OK> you don't have to buy a modest car that now costs the equivalent of $50-75K, but do you make enough to feed yourself? You may go back to the conditions of the 1950s and 1960s... (See old Greek cinema for clues). But expectations and demands are much different nowadays. Even the tourists that Greece want to attract (the more afluent), expect modern ammenities, which customer-service infrastructure requires lots of hard currency This is the reason SYRIZA--with all the pre-election talk, like "there's money", leave the "mnimonio" and whatever else they promised--cannot do anything else but negotiate only some small details of the bailout conditions and not the bailout itself. This is the reality.

The problem with bankruptcy is that once you do it, no more credit, no more loans. The good is that you don't have the huge debt payments to make. And, your products are now far more competitive. However, can you think of another HUGE problem for Greece if it goes that route?....

OK> The team doesn't have huge incentive other than end up in second place and win the playoffs. But, PAO played too many games and dropped points like this one. Also, it's very stupid for the league to ban fans. If they're serious about violence, they can find the perps. Ban those for life. Such bans empower the vandals and penalize the good fans who want to enjoy their team. It hurts the sport too. How many little boys don't get attached to this sport because it's too risky to go (taken by parent) to soccer games? Those in charge of Greek football have been killing the game.

Haha, nice pix/gif Reaper! No, I don't think Greece has any chance of qualification, unless others are thrown out or serious points taken away. Also, I really don't believe we can get more points than the other 3rd finishers. Is only one team out of 9 groups that's left out? The best would be to keep improving and not finish at the bottom of the group. Actually, this may be a good time for Markarian to introduce/develop new talent. Who the hell picked Ranieri? This coach has made more money but not coaching! Seriously, he gets big contracts but he's fired early and gets paid for the remainder of the contract. Markarian can be good. He coached some Latin America national squad recently. For years I wanted him to come back to PAO. I think he's too old to be coaching every week now on a league team.