athinaios

Pap could score. Ajagun can't. I know he runs and marks a lot, but I wouldn't use him, except when the team is winning and want to keep the score. It's very frustrating to the players in a tight game when there aren't many opps to score that a player gets a nice chance and wastes it so badly. Demoralizing. I'd sell him. I also agree with Grkfreezer above that Lod could be a gem we found and if healthy could have huge impact. Ninis should will take notice....

For better or worse, Greece will stay in Europe, with a common currency in the forseeable future. There are many scenaria as to what should happen next, and some depend on the general economic outlook of the EuroZone, including the other countries in trouble. If Tsipras delivers what the Euros want, and if he survives his party defections, and if he can mend bridges with certain leaders/countries, he can turn out to be very successful.***** Now there are lots of "ifs" here. One, the Euro leaders can easily destroy him by not being flexible with the terms. But, it's more than obvious to all now that Greece's debt is way too big and therefore unpayble. Merkel says no reduction of the amount (no haircut) just longer terms and lower rates. IF trust between EZ and Greece is repaired, and if there's an Athens gov that can implement the promised, and most needed reforms, Europe will have to trim the debt (haircut), forgive some obligations, and make no-insterest loans. It's ONLY the EZ countries that are still willing to lend to Greece now. [other countries are NOT willing to do so; forget Russia, China, US, whomever] What many people fail to recognize is that when you negotiate with other parties they don't have to see it your way. Many of us disagree here about everything. But, when you need money you can't go to the bank and tell them they're a bunch of nazis (they may be), that their terms are outrageous, shame on them, etc. Once you decide you want to be in the bank's club and want its money, you have to be diplomatic and play game with the parameters and the people involved. This is politics, diplomacy. The art of the possible! Before you say (as many of you have said it repeatedly) exit the EZ, please remember that many leaders of parties that represent close to 85% of the voters since 2008 have opted to stay in the EZ. Why? Are they all bought out? Are the apologists for some dark masters? [as someone accused me of being one] In my opinion it's because they all agreed it may be really bad but the alternative is worse! .... *****How I measure success? implement needed reforms; the country will benefit from them. (we all agree they're needed but no previous govs dared to do so) if he has the ability to be diplomatic, he can show the Euros that Greece is turning a page; he took a tremendous political risk but delivered as no PM had done before! Europe will have to decide that it's a big family and once it has responsible governments, then the remaining Greek debt can be written off on the premise that the Greek state isn't producing deficits and in on same page with advanced western countries. ie. A US state cannot declare bankruptcy. The Feds step in. These benefits can (and will have to) be felt by the Greek society before this gov's term in over. So, Tsipras (maybe not with Syriza as it is now) can be reelected and enjoy a long successful career with a name like Venizelos or the old Karamanlis, or Trikoupis, and a few others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=126&v=7ULk3Mz5Rnw

Look everybody has difficult stretches. We're talking about the same think in the PAO section. The league has relatively few teams, and I heard that on purpose they don't want to have big-team games the first couple weeks of the new season. There aren't that many weeks available. We'll see each other on the 8th week. I think gavroi are not going to be as strong this new season as the last one. I think PAO will be a contender and hopefully PAOK, but you guys choked last year. 5 points clear of gavroi and having beaten them at their home.... and then finished horribly! For my team, I don't mind the big games bunched together. These pros should not get tired. Actually big games should focus their minds. Injuries are a factor but they can happen all the time. The problem with our 2 teams is that they drop too many points where they shouldn't (with lesser teams). PAO is notorious for this. If the league had only the top 5-6 teams, PAO would have won it comfortably last year. Anyway, good luck to you.

I think they do try to avoid the derbies in the first couple weeks so the teams are more ready to play at full strength later. If this is true, with relatively few teams in the league it's bound to have a string of big matches later on because there aren't that many matches. In the difficult stretch, we have PAOK (away), AEK (at home), Atromitos (away), Oly (home). If we field a better team than last year--and by the 8th week we should know--I don't see why we can't beat PAOK, AEK, and gavroi. The last two we have them at home, and we beat Paok 4 times last year, rather convincingly. Atromitos has given us the most trouble actually. But, I think gavroi and Paok (?) will be our main competitors. I don't think AEK will be contenting during their first year back. Atromitos won't either. Paok, well, they always choke. This coming season may be the most promising for PAO in many years. I don't think Oly will be stronger; on the contrary. We were the better side on both games we played last season.

So, what's the next day going to be like? Don't you think that the traditional big-party blocks (left-right, whatever) may be transformed given the circumstances? Traditionally, 2 big parties got 80% of the vote, but can't do this anymore. Or, will they do again in the near future? Both left and right had the chance to govern. Both have had their own problems and both didn't manage to solve Greece's problems. By the way, it can be argued that if you take the rhetoric and the ideology (that only few party loyalists fully understand), all parties have used the state (and expanded it) to favor their own clientelle. Same fundamental policies, protecting special interests, inefficiency, and over-burdening the free market. I'm not saying that capitalism shouldn't be regulated, but there is a difference between oversight/regulation and strangulation. It's like capitalism was introduced to Greece but it wasn't understood! Likewise with the other liberal principles of democracy and individual liberty that came out of the Enlightenment. [it's not to be confused with neo-liberalism or neo-conservatism]. These include separation of church-state, individual conscience & choice, etc. In some ways, Greece is still trying to figure out its place.

If the club is ready and focused, I don't see why they can't get all points until the 8th week. That's 21 points! And, it'd be great if PAO starts the derbys with those points in the bag. Weeks 8-12 are very difficult, and ontop of that hopefully there will be euro games too. Interesting statistic from last year, and not unlike years in the past: We lost the title not because we drop points during the big games but because we waste them on lesser teams. :ph34r: Actually PAO would be a clear champion if only competed against the top 5-7 teams in the league! (based on the earned points in those games only)

Darn, I have to admit, the money is good, and since Greece has no money right now, I sold my soul to the dark forces that want to destroy Greece. :lol: -_- I wonder how much longer will it take for my patrons to destroy Greece? They're at it since 1821.... My advice to them is, don't destroy it, own it. And, if history is a guide, Greeks will help you do it, gaddamit.

Apparently we see things quite differently. Merkel and some others wanted to kick Greece out that's why they humiliated Tsipras and made even worst offers than in previous months. Like telling someone it's time to leave, hoping they'd leave. But, Tsipras didn't. You, and many of our compatriots, have to get off the self-delusion bandwagon: we're so great, we have so many assets, we are so important, everyone wants to control us because.. whatever, blah, blah. You know how many countries (and their people) make such claims? A dime a dozen. The reality has been, since 1821, that Greece has heavily relied upon others to accomplish important milestones that had lasting consequences*. The exception was the Balkan wars in 1912-13. It's been a long history of bad governments & self-governance. Mistakes upon mistakes, only to have people say something like, "they hate us and that's why they want to control us." *and now it appears that reorganizing and modernizing the Greek state is, again, in the hands of foreigners :gr:

This is where the money will come from for the "next day" in Greece: http://www.huffingtonpost.gr/2015/07/14/story-grafima-grexit-bank_n_7792066.html?utm_hp_ref=greece One thing that has been missed by most Greeks, including some of our friends here, is that any agreement with bailout money means that some other EU countries (taxpayers) are asked to chip in. Private or other international lenders will NOT lend to Greece, because of the country being untrustworthy. We can talk about the immorality of the interest and terms, but if you put yourself in such situation there's no national independence left. The Greek gov under Tsipras played the tough guy (or a game of chicken), but miscalcuated. They believed the Europeans would never let Greece leave as this would unravel the EU.. They didn't understand that in the minds of euro leaders (who matter at this point) Greece was not a good club member and better be kicked out. You can not go negotiating with bravado in this reality.....

Congrats guys. Thank you for helping out.

The referendum was absolutely foolish. Another mistake by Tsipras. It was a democratic exercise in futility. No clear questions and most importantly the voters didn't vote for this deal? Or, did they?! Actually it made things worse. Tsipras had been warned not to do it because the Euro leaders would not deal and would push to kick Greece out if an "Oxi" vote was the result. Plus, it wasted more time. Just the closure of the banks and capital limits have hurt the economy and everyone. :tdown: I wonder how many Greeks who voted "NO" like this deal.

Here's the new memorandum. in English in Greek And, for frequent updates, you can check The Guardian. Since we're talking about the next, do you find anything good in these required/imposed reforms? One thing is obvious, that when others dictate how to run your own country, and you accept it, it means that serious national independence has been lost. So, please enough of the rhetoric like, "we didn't sell the country", "kept our head high", etc. Another sure thing: Tsipras will have a hard time governing (IF he makes it), because he campaigned against what he has agreed to today. Syriza may unravel. It'll be, let's say extremely unusual, to have legislation passed with other parties' votes while the majority of Syriza deputies vote against it. That can't last long. Tsipras will have to reshuffle his government and fire Lafazanis (energy minister who had been pushing the ..Russia solution) and Konstantopoulou (parliament president). Both have been loud voices against Tsipras's managing the euro talks and any possible deal under current terms. The next day already looks very bad.....

Greece used to have twice the tourism of Turkey, now it's the reverse. It's not only the cheaper currency but also the level of service! The Turkish tourist places along the Aegean are rated higher in satisfaction surveys than their Greek counterparts. Also, political and economic instability are very harmful to tourism. Egypt can tell you this much. Let's say I have 2 weeks vacation; sure I'm looking for a bargain, but my over all experience matters. I want/demand service. I don't want strikes to prevent me from getting to/fro my destination! You say next year will be better for tourism in Greece? Not if there the austerity and tough measures continue, because they'll produce more strikes and uncertainty. Btw, when I hear you can only take $50/day out of ATMs, but, hey, don't worry, tourists have no problems, I'd stay away from that country if I were a tourist, especially the ones that have money to spend and aren't like the sleeping bag travellers who only have $50 shoved into their socks and don't need ATMs! >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> One source that has very frequent updates on the situation is this: http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live

He has already, but now it's not up to him. There are strong (influencial) voices within the EZ to kick Greece out, because they don't trust Greece would do any reforms and thus they don't want to send any more money to GR. When you're bankrupt it's hard to play "

I also want to mention that all those Euro leaders who deal/negotiate with Greece have to answer to their own political parties and ultimately to their citizens. Public opinion in Europe (EZ) now is not favorable to Greece. Most measures to help Greece will have to pass through other countries' parliaments. When I asked how would many of you react if Turkey or Fyrom were in Greece's position and you were on the other side of the EZ, I forgot to add Albania.... ;)

Guys, be realistic. What does it mean a country likes you or doesn't???!! One aspect is that the people of that country have a long-held animosity toward another people. Is is true in case of England, Finland, even Germany? The other one is the governments of those countries. In that case, there are no friends, just national insterests. OK, there are cases a country may help another on humanitarian grounds, but even this is a rare exception if the helper has nothing to profit from such action; especially when the cost to the helper is considerable. And, to put this whole issue into another perspective, only family helps a member who's a screw up... ;) [how are a family member? either born or adopted]

It was said during the politicos meeting that Greece went to play the "

Have you guys looked at the proposed Syriza legislation? This is the point I'm trying to raise here (among others), that Greece needs reforms. Right? OK, we agree, but it's one thing to say yes to reforms and another to be specific. I think that some of the reforms are absolutely needed. Which ones you like and which don't. Another interesting observation is that most of the "good reforms" Greece had to implement came from abroad, some were demanded (like some of these new measures) by outsiders. Don't you think this says something about the political and social culture of the country?

The referendum was an exercise in ________________(at the cost of $25-30 million). Tsipras lost in his gamble against the troika while tetering the country at the edge of collapse. So, what's next? What are those things you'd like to see? Which direction should the country trake?

Actually I feel sad, because this is a worse deal than what it could have been achieved previously, while the Greek economy has shrunk in the meantime, not to mention the damage and angst of the last couple weeks. Tsipras did not play this hand well. OK, he had a bad hand to begin with (back in Feb) but he failed to realize that a bad hand usually means you lose. I'm happy though that the worst was avoided. The worst being a total collapse of the economy and Greece becoming a basket case needing humanitarian aid to survive. I don't know what some people here and in Greece are seeing this as a victory....that he stood up to the troika, Germany, and kept Greece proud. The only "victory" is that Greece isn't kicked out of the EZ. For the record, if Greece's offer for reforms is accepted, it'll get about $80 billion, including emergency funds for the banks to open. As I read the proposed Greek offer, I wonder why most of those sensible measures weren't done before...... It's something Greece needed regardless of debt obligations or troika or mnemonio..... But, in true historical fashion, since 1821, any positive change, it has come or imposed from abroad!

The referendum was ridiculous. Everybody interpreted it anyway they wanted it. What kind of bs is that? It was a waste of precioius time. Remorse or what, it's not only the Greek governments at fault. You know, public sentiment does play an important role. Responsible citizenship is necessary. OK, what would you do? (people ask me). Well, for starters I wouldn't fall for the empty rhetoric (examples of which we've seen here in this forum*), I wouldn't go and bleet like sheep in meaningless demonstrations and party gatherings. I would demand they talk to me like a responsible adult, and be specific about plans for reforms. I'd vote for the candidates that dared to speak the truth, even it was unpleasant. (no b.s. "there's money for all") I wouldn't watch crappy media nor buy newspaper rags. I'd demand meritocracy not patronage. And, I would behave like a good person with civility, respecting my fellow citizens, care for the environment (not polute, clean after myself, not throw garbage everywhere), wouldn't park my car/bike on the sidewalk, not make unnecessary noise, not cut in line, show up for work on time and be productive (and if I worked at a public office, I'd treat the ..public with respect), etc, etc.... * we defend Greece; we're proud; we don't sell the country; unity; the lenders are terrorists; etc. Oh, and so many recipes for how Greece can get out of this mess through ..magical thinking~! ___________________________________ D. Tusk (Prez Euro Council) and JC Juncker (Prez Euro Commission) said Greece must submit detailed plan by Thu, so the top euro leaders can meet on Sat and decide by Sunday, which is the absolute last day for Greece. It's either in, with a bailout and a plan, or out (Grekexit). The Grekexit plans have been drawn already by European leadership. "Detailed plan" means specifics, not rhetoric. It's crazy that the Greek gov has not done this already!!!!! :tdown: :bangin: And, it's even crazier that Tsipras has not submitted the specific reforms/legislation the country needs anyway. And, it's even craziest that the Euros are ready to give Greece breathing room (which includes emergency liquidity funds for Greek banks, so they can open) but Tsipras delivered a speech (and replied to Guy's speech in the video above) in Euro parliament without being specific. His only defense was that he released Lagard's corruption list. OK, good, but what the f@@@ man, you needed 5 months to do that?.... :xxx:

Tsipras was not ready to be PM. No experience and no real plans other than rhetoric. Amatuerish when he (the country) couldn't afford to. Syriza is a contradiction in itself, with many groups who disagree about fundamental policies--united in their quest for power, but once there..... :argue: He should have started with reforms already, while negotiating with troika. This is the point of the video above. Tsipras could have a stronger hand, and a public relations advantage if he could say, look in my 5 months in office I've done more sensible reforms that dozens of governments before me!! Great reforms that will make Greece more competive, with a bigger economy, closer to the standards of the EZ! So, help out here guys.... Instead he's been business as usual. Just yesterday they announced that more priests would be hired! Oh, yeah.... Did you know that the state pays for priests' salaries? :xxx:

Well, I wrote his speech... (haha). And, since I'm feeling generous again today, I'm prepared to pay off the entire Greek debt (yeah, I'm that rich :huh?: ). But, I don't want my money to go to waste, as it most certainly will if Greece continues on the same path of the old ways. So, let's say that Tsipras doesn't have to deal with those demanding lenders he's begging money from any longer. What prevented him from passing legislation to end the privileges, to open up the marketplace (destroy the "syntexnies"), eliminate corruption, bureaucracy, etc...?????!!!. He could still have negotiated better terms, but why hasn't done the reforms the country needs regardless of the bailout. It doesn't have to be an external demand (from lenders) that Greece does sensible reforms, yet, since the 1980s it hasn't.

Are you making the argument that Greece is an irresponsible child? Then why should anyone take it seriously? So, since you do put it that way, it's no brainer why the Europeans & IMF say to Greece today: you can't be trusted. If you still want our money, you have to eat this, jump through that hoop, we come into your house and inspect every closet, drawer, and pocket. And, you have to be put on a leash so you don't go wandering. What??!!! You don't like these terms? Then adieu, arrivederchi, hasta la vista, goodbye and good night.. You don't have to come to us for another bailout since not only you have been irresponsible but you lied, yes LIED, in your application, and you FORGED documents while we were dealing with you as an adult! We won't talk about the free money we gave you to become a proper member of our club in the 1980s.... <_< PS> To harp on my previous question. So Fyrom and Turkey are telling you that it was your fault for lending them your money............ oyvey