athinaios

... Very good points. Yes, it goes back to the Ottoman rule and the immediate years of the new country. But, Greeks never managed to get their house in order, because of a certain culture....... Almost everyone believes in conspiracies, plus the notion that Greeks are the smartest, plus the curse of a great past, which means the world owes Greece ..everything. Many friends here believe in magical thinking too. That is, by exiting Europe, denouncing the debt, and declaring ..independence, things will be better and the road to greatness is open. Yeah. But, I look at the football league, run by Greeks, and I can't stop thinking that represents how things usually go in the whole country. If, by magic, the national debt disappeared tomorrow, would you be confident in saying Greece would function as a modern, rational, efficient country? :huh:

PAO got lucky to beat gavro early on, because until a few weeks ago, our team was hurting badly. I'm happy we won another title, but I'd like to see lesser teams win the cup too. It shouldn't be PAO, Oly 99.99% of the time. If it weren't for these two teams playing very competitive games in Euroleague, basketball would be awful like football is in Greece. They need to make the league competitive, and open all sports to all fans. Bring back the good fans and throw out the hooligans. Why shouldn't PAO and gavroi fans watch a game together? Are Greeks too immature and brutish that can't co-exist?

Well, good luck. I can't take anything that people say from any side seriously! PAO's problem is not losing 2 gates, and the minister's bs won't solve anything. The problem is the prevailing culture, that of corruption, violence, and incompetence at every level. If anyone wants to understand how Greek society operates, take a look at the sports leagues. Why, because in the other domain of politics, conspiracy theories about ..foreign intervention/ blame dominate. ;)

Great game today, beat Arsenal in their home, 2-0. Fair result, Barca had more quality chances. Messi scored both, one penalty kick he won. It could have been at least twice as many if Suarez had been his usual self and not miss from great positions.

:la: Hmmmm. And, when those "better tactics" are going to be shown?? We played a second squad PAOK basically. Strama takes out Kaltsas and Vlachodimos, our 2 best players. Were they tired? Injured? I think it was Strama's tactics that cost us the game. Anyway, he may be better than Yannis, but he better go to Karaiskaki and not lose. As for the playoffs, I don't really care at this point as long as we get the Europa spot. We don't and we won't have a team to compete in the CL next season.

We have not won in the last 5 games at home. Four of which we didn't even score. Typical (unfortunately) of dropping points and not advancing. I don't think there's an urgency for this team right now. They're happy with 3rd place, and hope for the playoffs. At this point, all of my hopes since the end of last season have been crushed, and in the worse possible way.... :xxx: My only concern right now is that we go to Karaiskaki and not lose badly. But, again, when the expectations are very low for this team it might surprise us. They can't handle the pressure or the label of "favorite to win"....

Arsenal has to be respected but they don't have a good defense and their offense is erratic. Their goal differential isn't good in the premier league. They're better than Oly but Arsenal struggled to advance out of the group stage. I still have to favor Barca over 2 games.

Barca is creative and Messi's penalty was for entertainment value since they were winning the game anyway. But, I think technically there was a violation since Suarez was not outside the box when Messi took the shot. In that case the ref could have ordered a repeat. But, regardless, it was a beauty. I just didn't know that Neymar was supposed to get it. I thought they planned to give Suarez the goal so he can advance as a top scorer in La Liga over Ronaldo. As to the other point, Barca is a complete team, and for me, it's pure joy to watch them play. They've been criticized for passing (or hiding) the ball too much, but it's a skill I appreciate, and at any point they can break ahead with lots of options as to where to pass the ball and how to attack. This is something that takes a long time to perfect. One of the reasons I became a Barca fan was its history, and its struggle against the fascist Franco, who was a huge fan of Real and tried to destroy Barca. But, it's been an attractive club for me over the years.

Well, today, there's talk about Latsis and Alafouzos collaborating on rebuilding Leoforos. Having a modern home is necessary but then all the violence and stupid fan behavior must stop. They have to attract fans who would come to watch a decent game, with their kids, and fans that can spend money. The hooligans have harmed the club tremendously. I'm not sure whether Leoforos can be that modern football stadium because of the available size and location. I don't know. But, a proper home is necessary, and it has to be impressive.

I think we have several members here who are Barca fans, so we should have our own thread if you like. Otherwise I'll delete/lock this thread if there's no interest or you think we should keep one thread for all La Liga topics.

Gee, thanks, man. I'd have never suspected that. Ingenious.... To get one of your own to take over your hated adversary. Com'on, give us more names. I can't wait....

That would depend on what you're trying to do ;) I can think of lots of celebrities that do just that! No talent either, but they're famous because of those ..qualities!

I voted for 3 of those options ;)

I doubt anyone outside Greece would want to get involved with a club. It's not worth it from a business perspective. Then what's left? The excitement of the sport? The spectacle? The fame? Appeal to the consumer or mass appeal? Buying respect as the owner? What? From the outside, it's a bunch of diminishing-in-numbers..natives who are dancing ontop of a burnt rubble. Unfortunately the natives can't get their s%$#! together to do the necessary reforms, and they haven't realized that most people have turned away from this sport. A sport that used to be the king but nowadays has to compete with all sorts of other venues, social media, and choices people (especially younger ones) have.... And, it's not competing by offering value. OK. it offers value to those who get their kicks through violence. Only a crazy rich Greek, who loves his team, would get involved. But unless there's a strong group of owners along with political leadership who are committed to do the right thing and rescue this sport, NOTHING will happen. The lunatics are already running the asylum. :argue:

Corruption has reached deep in every sector of the society and is represented in the national culture. It's so deeply-rooted than even if you wanted to eliminate corruption you'd be opposed by the majority of the people, because you'd inevitably have to step on too many toes. I'm sorry to say this. No matter which party has been in power, it used the state mechanism for patronage and to perpetuate corruption. Even the so-called conservatives, who included small-state advocates, were one of the worst violators. For decades--and I heard this too often--Greeks used to deride the Euros as stupid. And, it worked actually. Cooked books, governments lying about numbers, about everything, and the Euros would send Greece billions of...euros in support of all sorts of sectors. The farmers who are protesting today have been one of the most rewarded economic group in Greece. Even when Greece joined the euro, it came in at an artificially high exchange rate, so Greeks thought they were more affluent than in reality. Since 1980, when Greece joined the EU, Greek production of key foods (and not only) went down, in real measures. So, when the crisis hit, many Greeks, including many of our friends here, bravely said, let's get out of Europe, we don't need those bastards with their rules, extortion, and whatever. .... Except when you don't even produce enough to feed your people, and you import 80% of basic consumer goods, you have a big problem. And, the drachma would buy you diddly squat.

If it were about me, I'd agree with you ;) But, in the final analysis, it was about PAO, and he proved how little and petty he was. The fans wanted him out because the mob was controlling the sport and he had practically surrendered to it; also, he had been a disaster as an owner given his $$$. As I've said before, I do not condone the language and much of the behavior of certain fans, but this is not an excuse for Tzigger. I stand by my point: Tzigger used the club as his toy and harmed our club more than anyone else. Like Pana97 says, you want Alafouzos' job, go and take it. Or, better yet, anyone who has big bucks could go and take the team. But, so far Alafouzos has been the only one who has stepped up! This has to be acknowledged! So, OK, we don't like this mess, we don't like his inexperience and mistakes. Again, what's the alternative???... I haven't heard that Alafouzos blocking someone like Gianakopoulos (or any big money) from getting the club like Tzigger did. Have you?

I'll get into this fray against my better judgment..... So, it's the year when PAO owes tons of money, can't play in Europe and everything points to being relegated to a lesser division. Nobody wants to touch the club with a 10 yard pole. No one! Then Alafouzos enters the scene, I say, thankfully. He's a man who is rather ignorant of managing a football club and picking the right people for the important positions in the club. But he is the only one who dares take this club and ultimately save it from expulsion from the top tier. The first year, PAO, especially during the first round, was at the bottom of the standings! Alafouzos then restores some fiscal order, patches up Leoforos, and even manages to win a cup. Apparently he's not as wealthy as Tzigger (and the Vardi family) or Savidis, or Marinakis. Thus his ability is limited. He manages to convince many people to whom PAO owes a ton of money (from contracts of the old regime, not A's). Then people complain that he's not getting good (expensive) players or that he allows his people to bring in lame players, keep a bad coach, etc, etc.. All true. But, we have to ask, what was/is the alternative? The only person who wanted PAO is ..Tsakas :lol: (which reminds me how Tzigger allowed this clown to insult our club). Keeping things in perspective: Tzigger had far more $$$$ and he proved to be the worst owner of PAO ever! Count the titles PAO won during his tenure. But, for me, the worst was that he surrendered the league to the mob. The criminal elements that have destroyed football in Greece. Tzigger, therefore, is far more responsible not only for the team reaching bottom but for not fighting the criminal elements. The Vardinoyannis family is one of the richest, so his responsibility is greater because of his relative power. And, in the end, before he disappeared, and while PAO was in bankruptcy, he was asking $$ for rent for the training grounds at Paiania!!! None of us in here would do that to our beloved club, especially if were so rich, even if we felt slighted by people associated with the club. He used the club as a toy. A toy he didn't want others to have. He blocked the Gianakopoulos brothers several times. [Can you imagine if they had done to the football club what they had done in basketball??] Tzigger proved he didn't love PAO. To me this is a deadly sin and cannot be forgiven. :tdown:

I watched the game, mostly, because when at a superbowl party other things interfere :) I was supporting Denver and they deservingly won, but it was due to their outstanding defense. Both teams made many, many mistakes, including stupid fouls. I had hoped the Broncos would be competitive against a favored team, but it was the Panthers trying to catch up throughout the game. Manning should retire after this; he had a great run and will be a hall of famer. Oh, and by the way, the Jest also beat the Patriots! :tup:

Today, this day Saturday is responsible for whatever happens henceforth..... Why myths are presented as fact? Because insecure people need myths. They're afraid of reality. And, speaking of myths, religions are invented to provide an explanation (as they used to explain the ..universe) and alleviate the fears of horrors, natural disasters and death. It's so obvious--but well hidden from those who desperately want to believe--that religions captured the small-mindedness, superstitions and ignorance of the times they were invented. As for the US, sadly, the top answer to the question "I would never vote for a..." is atheist. Higher than Muslim, homosexual, black, etc.

Well, it's easier (natural?) to believe in the divine, and that the absolute can be captured/revealed not via logic. So, once you capture the absolute what's the point of having a discussion? If you don't get it, it's your problem. And, of course, we must deal with you... The E gave us the Age of Reason but also laid the foundations of the modern state, which came with patriotism and nationalism. For me, patriotism means having a stake (not a steak... I wish as I'm hungry now) in a society where I live. That's why I support the conditions that make me happy. * I don't need to have myths or false ideas nor blind nationalism in order to be patriotic. I think the ones who go overboard (ultra-nationalists/jingoists) are dangerous. * It's interesting that people who complain about everything are themselves disrespectful of common decency. For example, everyone in Athens hates the noise, the pollution (garbage), lawlessness, illegal parking, etc, etc. But, who's responsible for such ills?

I think the Enlightenment--also known as the Age of Reason-- was humankind's best achievement over all. Especially because it was so radical and its transformative effects, beginning in the latter part of the 18th century. Of course, in order for it (E) to happen, other evens and processes in history had to happen, like the changing economic and political structures in the 14-16 centuries that brought the Renaissance (rebirth). For thousands of years, humans lived in willful ignorance, in fear and prejudice. The E. gave an opportunity to "mankind to come out of its self-imposed immaturity" as philosopher I. Kant said. Are people Enlightened today? Sadly, I see the same debate that followed the destruction of Lisbon in 1755 by the earthquake and tsunami. .. (about the causes of events) being repeated. I would have hoped for a more ..enlightened dialogue today.

On February 3rd, 1908, our team was founded. I just wanted to mark the occasion and ask what are some of your memories of Panatha? I'll add mine later, but I remember many of us (some members aren't here any longer) writing, sometime in the early 2000s, that it would have been very fitting to celebrate our centennial (in 2008) in a new, modern home. We actually thought that having a new home was very possible. But, of course, this being Greece.... I grew up at a time when PAO would win titles very regularly unlike the last 15-20 years. For me, Tzigger was the worst owner. Yeah, there may have been others (some of you think Alafouzos) worse, but I size an owner by his time and economic ability. Tzigger allowed the "paragga" to emerge and as one of the most wealthy Greeks, he didn't do enough for the team, including getting us a new home. Gavroi got Karaiskaki for example. Anyway, this is not about him. But, Panathinaikos has been part not only of Athenian life but of greater Greece. A great club in so many sports, so many great athletes, so many memories. It's been part of millions of people's lives. Well, times may be hard for us now, but I hope we'll turn this around. Cheers.

The kid deserves a better league. He's of high caliber to make a big career and, why not, big $$$ I know that nobody wants to lose great talent but who would stay in this league? Would you advise your ..brother to forgo a serious European team offering a much better contract?

SYRIZA told the same lies to win power as other parties/leaders before. Its ..bravado against the Europeans was a bluff and a costly one at that. In the absence of an alternative, Tsipras remained in power, showing that dishonesty and incompetency can pay off in the Greek political system. Defaulting and leaving Europe was the worst outcome, and everyone but the fringe political parties, realized it. The parties (outside the smaller fringe ones) would have to abide by the European demands. What Syriza could have done, realistically, was to revamp the way government and the public sector works. To finally modernize the state, the legal system, education, separate church-state, stop corruption. It failed in that too. They've been hiring their own adding more parasites to the cost of running the state. Now they're thinking of changing the electoral law to prevent ND from winning a governing majority. Same crap Andreas did when he was in power. Tsipras has copied Andreas perfectly.

Sorry, but defacing/destroying public and private property isn't the way to argue someone's point. Change has to start by respecting the safety and property of others'