athinaios

:unsure: :1eye: :blink: [in red] I know you care and you mean well, but this is the kind of magical thinking that when widespread--and it seems that it has infected many in the governing party--is actually harmful. It's harmful because instead of identifying the appropriate medicine, it relies on voodoo. Of course, before you cure the disease you have to correctly identify it first, which I'm not sure many (incl. the gov) do, or want to.

Interesting video with many good points. But, I'm amazed that the supporters of the Tsipras referendum, Tsipras, and national independence, etc, fail to see reality. Equally amazing how people can interpret this video to suit their interests. The reality is: Greeece has borrowed huge sums of money, mispent it, lied in its loan application and forged supporting documents; while succeeding Greek governments acted like, "hey, I didn't sign on to these agreements so I don't have to abide".... meanwhile you give me more money ... with the rate and conditions I WANT!! Otherwise, I call you Nazis, terrorists, etc. This whole 5 month gamble, since the elections, has cost Greece dearly. Lost productivity, lost time, smaller economy (smaller economy=less money coming in), loss of credibility and worsening of relationships between Greece and its European partners. This Syriza gov today would love to have the deal on the table 5 months ago. What savings or better terms they've been negotiating since have been LOST in reality due to the worsening/shrinking of the Greek economy!! Collapsing of the banking sector. Where are those (including people here) who were riding high on nationalistic fervor that banks would open, Europe would kneel to the proud Greeks, etc? In the last 5 months, billions of euros have been withdrawn from the banks by depositors, investments stopped, no lending for new business (worsening unemployment), and now some are saying Greece can print i.o.u.'s or drachmas or some magical gift certiicates Santa puts in your xmas stocking. :evil: To those who believe in magical thinking, let me remind you that there are some fundamental you can't disregard, like the credibility of the banking system, the people's trust in the value of the currency, etc. All, including the loudest sloganeers, feel insecure. They have taken (or would if they could) all their euros out of the bank; there are not spending, making plans to spend, start new business, hire people, plant new crops, travel, etc. This is lethal for an economy. What irates me the most is the amateurish behavior and gambling by the current Greek government. It's the human cost that matters so gambling with other people's lives is criminal.I asked many times here, how Greeks would be reacting if Fyrom or Turkey had been where Greece is today.... while Greece would be in, say, Finland's position.

To all of those friends who've been agonizing over this serious issue, posting here, and creating a good environment for all of us to get things of our chest, I dedicate this song to you: :D

@Irlandos Any medium of common exchange (money) has to be backed by something, nowadays is the trust of the users. [for example the US $] So, the value (what's worth) depends on what people think it's worth. Your dollar in one place is worth more than in another place for exactly same product. (ie. coffee) Now, I have a couple questions: what would the value of the drachma be as it floats with the dollar in Greece? Will there be an "exchange" rate? If it's 1-1 (or whatever it is), how long this would last? Having your own currency means that you devalue it against other hard currency; otherwise you lose the advantage of going back to drachmas. what would you rather have in your pocket? Once people have used a stronger currency, it's very difficult to go back to a weak one, because, again, it's the trust/faith of the people that determine value (there are other factors but primarily weak money is weak) So, in reality either Greece gets a deal and an immediate influx of euros or leaves and prints drachmas. Floating a parallel currency may allow government to pay salaries but those i.o.u.'s (I owe you) can quickly become worthless.

Again, I repeat, I do NOT think troika's economic policies are good; they are failed conservative models. Already, the IMF has admitted that Greek debt cannot be paid in its current size even by a healthy economy. You can't keep a patient sick while telling him to work harder. If you want Greece to be a good club member you do cure the disease, and eliminate the sources of the disease through structural/behavioral reforms. On this, there have been very good European-led demands part of any deal offered. Greece has to realize that it cannot continue the economic policies and irresponsible behavior of the past.

A few more observations: The problem with the "no" voters is that there's no majority of what this means really. Stay in the EZ or leave? How much austerity? And, what does any austerity mean? No more corruption? Retirement at 52? Jobs for everyone? .... Most people in all EZ countries would have voted against stifling austerity, high unemployment, loss of national independence, like Greeks did on Sunday. It's natural, but also: Big majorities in the EZ countries would vote "yes" for Greece to pay back its loans; therefore the rhetoric coming out of Greece about "unity", "we showed them how proud we are", etc are pointless. what Tsipras is doing today calling all political leaders trying to get a consensus about a ..deal should have been done months ago. This would have been a better show of solidarity if troika knew they had 95% of the political leadership of Greece united. This assumes that Syriza wanted to have a deal and not leave the EZ. Greece has no cash, so something must be done right away, either a deal or an exit. If a deal, even a more favorable one, will definitely include many tough measures of internal reforms. Should Syriza call another referendum, just to make sure that Greeks are OK with it?....

I agree,as I believe all of us here want the Greek government to succeed in getting a good (better) deal from the troika, and get some economic recovery out of this harsh austerity. However, we disagree as to how this is done or how well/badly Tsipras has handled the situation in the last 5 months. Also, nationalistic stances and high-fallutin' rhetoric won't put euros in Greek banks. The banks can't open or if they do, there isn't enough cash in the vaults, so they'll accept deposits only.... ;) I'm betting that all Greeks would want to have euros in their hands now instead in the bank because if Greece leaves the EZ, their deposits will be converted to drachmas, which of course will buy you squat of anything imported. Sure you can pay your barber in drachmas, but if you like having anything Greece doesn't produce, it's goodnight!

:la: :artist: If I understand the banking system a little, you need money to operate. No?! All Greeks will rush to the banks to take all their money out, especially after this referendum. So, where are they going to find this cash reserves? I'm talking euros..... unless they start printing drachmas!

Hold on, so the referendum was to ..strengthen Tsipras hand?!! Hmm. Even Paul Krugman doesn't think Tsipras knows what he's doing. But, Krugman says democracy won, so what if there's a Grekexit and back to the drachma..... Sure. If that's what the majority of Greeks want. In my estimate, the Greek government doesn't have much of bargaining power, unless it has decided to leave the eurozone. It's now the troika and other leaders (suprisingly, the US is playing a role pushing for a "haircut" and keeping Greece in the ez) who have to ask themselves whether they want Greece in or out, and what are they willing to pay for keeping Greece in.

Good for them. But, democracy wasn't for all, and democracy led to mob rule. [remember? ..come over here Socrates, drink this....] PS> I'm not for aristocracy, monarchy, or dicatorship, but democracy needs responsible, engaged, informed citizens. That's all .... (big order, I know)

But, that's the problem with this stupid referendum. A "no" vote does not mean what you say. Even Tsipras said a "no" doesn't necessarily mean leaving the eurozone. But, the question is what's next after the referendum?... I can't believe that Tsipras wanted a referendum to show how Greece is independent, to show unity, and whatever else.... Sorry, but this is totall b.s. What makes it worse is that there's no offer on the table right now so, in theory, Greek voters could ..analyze it and determine if those conditions are good. tsk

@ Dimitri 13: I've repeatedly said the troika recipe for economic recovery is faulty. But, elements for domestic reforms are very sound, and sadly it came to foreigners to demand how Greece organizes itself. It's humiliating. Secondly, you have to agree that being irresponsible leads to losing national independence when you go begging. Blaiming, cursing, making enemies of those who demand an arm and a leg before they lend you again (since you've lost all credibility), isn't doing any good. After all, you go begging to them. Right? Syriza proved amateurish in handling the negotiations, and not having serious plans to deal with the crisis after they brought down the previous government. Precious time was lost too. Excuse me, but when I hear Tsipras uttering bullshit and cheap slogans I cringe. Honestly, I really wanted this guy to suceed and breathe a fresh air into Greek politics but he/they proved inadequate for the circumstances.

POINT OF ORDER HERE: Dear members, please refrain from personal attacks. We can agree to disagree. Free expression is desirable but it must be done with civility. If you don't like someone's views, skip their posts and don't respond. Thank you!

From my personal experience (any similarities to actual situations are purely coinsidental): So, I borrow money to party, not work, buy favors, etc. Since I just joined a buddies club, they gave me free money to get up to the speed and train myself to be a decent club member. Of course, I'm smart, so I don't need that, and so I burned that money. Later, I asked for a loan. They happily gave me one at extremely low rate. I'm thinking, pfff, let me party on a bit longer and, you know, like a capable Greek who doesn't need to follow the regimen of other inferior people, I'll cram for the ..exam the night before..... Then, the motherF***ers, said I was behaving inappropriately while a club member. I said I'm HELLENE.... when "we" were building a great civilization they're living in caves! How dare they insult me like that??!!!. Then, the double-motherF***ers said if you want more loans the rate will be 7%!!!! What?!!!!!!!!!! This is usery, highway robbery, it's like Hitler invading again! Unacceptable. Now, the triple (troika) motheF***ers are saying no more money unless I agree that I'm a little child and must be told what to eat, when & how to work, exercise, and go to the bathroom. No more games they say! I say F*** them! Friends, let's all get together and tell them to go F*** themselves. We are proud, independent, even glorious! Life goes on, I don't need this club to have a great life. I'm sure there are other clubs I can join..... They'd love to have me, because we all behave the same~!

I apologize if I'm being too harsh, but I see such statements are generic and not very meaningful other than cheap political slogans, much like Tsipras was saying yesterday addressing the crowd. Proud Hellenes, solidarity, national unity, against the bloodsucking conspirators, ..show the Europeans what Greece is made of, etc, etc. What the hell is a prime minister in an extremely serious situation trying to do? Excite the mob to storm the Bastille? These remarks are OK in a "gipedo" where we shout slogans and being silly, but in serious politics they help perpetuate bad politics. Do or do you not need Europe? Do you or do you not need bailout money? As to some of those slogans: The country has already been sold, not literally, but very close to that, because when you are begging you've lost national independence the future of "your children" was undermined by all Greek governments in the last 50 years, for perpetuating a corrupt state, including higher education. Yes, "show them" what Greeks are made of!.... I think the Europeans have views on this and the current Athens rhetoric doesn't change their opinion. Does anyone think it does? Contradict the IMF.... while at it, contradict all those who are saying your economic policies since WW2 have led you to this disaster. Look, I know you care, like all our friends here, and everyone supports Greece. We also all want Greece to cure its ills and do great. After all, I think all of us here have relatives or friends in Greece, but above all we understand the human toll in this horrible situation. But, we disagree about the remedy. I'm not sure if we agree on the causes of this disease. This is utterly important becuase you have to diagnose the causes accurately before prescribing a remedy. :la:

Isn't true that none of you, myself included, knows what this referendum is about? We're all guessing, even if they're reasonable guesses. So, all is a speculation. I'm afraid that those who are in favor of a "no" vote will be disappointed. Why, because your guesses are not probably what Tsipras will do!... A referendum isn't supposed to be so vague nor what would happen after it takes place. The previous one in Greece in the mid 1970s, it was about yes-or-no regarding monarchy. Everybody understood the question and the result left no doubt about the next day! Today, Tsipras spoke to his supporters in Athens. Do you think this statement actually makes things clear?... Is this what a referendum is for? (Goodnight)

Thank you Lazarus for the plug. As for the referendum, it's really a bad one. First, it's not clear what the question is! There's no offer on the table right now!! Second, it will provide no clear verdict, unnecessarily dividing the people. What will Tsipras do if the majority votes "yes"?... Resign, call new elections? This is not good as more time will be lost. Greece is fast running out of money. There are several voices within the Greek government that have said all sorts of things. That a deal may be possible even after a "no" vote; Tsipras said a "no" vote doesn't mean that Greece will leave the euro! Some others have said that whatever the offered deal was back in February, it would be accepted today after the Greek govenment was caught by surprise that the troika didn't accept Greek demands. To show you that all is a speculation, most of you are guessing what will happen after the referendum, especially if there's a "no" majority. A referendum isn't supposed to be so vague nor what would happen after it takes place. The previous one it was about yes-or-no regarding monarchy. Everybody understood the question and the result left no doubt about the next day! .... Update: I just read this, and if I understand Greek correctly, such statements are really non-sensical. I know many politicians talk like that, but this is the talk of a used car salesman or childish at best.... If I were a negotiating partner with Mr. Tsipras expecting to talk seriously about the terms of the loans he's asking from me, I don't think I'd want to talk to him again! "

Jim Adams post's message is similar to what I asked here earlier. How would you react if roles were reversed. Perhaps, Fyrom or Turkey were in Greece's position and behaved likewise.... Yesterday, the young and progressive Italian PM said that (loose translation) he didn't take austerity measures on Italian pensioners, etc, so Greeks can maintain their lifestyle and corrupt system! Similar statements have been made by several other Eurozone leaders, especially of smaller countries, Ireland, Finland, etc. The point is that some time ago there were European leaders who had voiced support for Greece, but nowadays there's none. Why?.... In other words, the Greek government has no support. Even from countries that are in financial trouble may face tough conditions from lenders, so it would be to their interest to argue for lighter conditions on the Greek debt. But they aren't supporting Greece any longer... PS> No country (developed country), especially the financially troubled ones in Eurozone, will be treated like Greece. Why? Because no other country has been so unreliable. The Greek case is strict supervision of a unruly child, where even small details of how to behave from now on are decided by others. Hooray for national independence!

Corrupt or not, (much like FIFA), what choice do you really have in the absence of an alternative? There's good money in playing euro games. What makes it a bs is that Oly managed to rule the domestic league, thus capturing titles and then going directly to the CL group stages where many millions of $$ are given to the clubs. Then they use this money to buy players. Oly's budget is more than the rest of the league's teams combined! Even in corrupt Italy, Juve was relegated to second division as punishment.

To be truly left or right, in real terms means to take the country in a different directions, say a military junta (fascism) or abolish liberal democracy and implement communism. Despite their rhetoric, all parties that have governed Greece since WW2, have had very similar politics. As to analyze the political-cultural makeup of Greece would require a long discussion (perhaps another topic). The word "left" (as you seem to use it) is almost generic. But, if we are to use the definition as the left expresses and governs in Europe then you'll see the Greek left is much different.

I don't think there are Marxists in Greece (no more than 5%). Most don't understand marxism and certainly don't practice it, nor want it. I mean, come on, you can't be a marxist and also religious! Communism is not new. Plato promoted it in his utopian state. The early xtian church was communist too. ND, PASOK, SYRIZA have similar policies, using the state mechanism for favors and hiring their own people.

As for the bloodsucking creditors, if you don't go begging (through your own democratically elected governmet that tells you, and you believe it, that there's money to party while not being productive, etc), then you don't have to be treated in this (currently) humiliating way, like an irresponsible child. Where is Greece's national independence when its creditors tell Greece how to eat, sleep, and go to the bathroom? This is like a failed stated, a third world country that you have foreigners being in charge of domestic affairs!!! And, this is exactly the situation in Greece right now. Decades of borrowing and wasting money bankrupted Greece. Again about the bloodsuckers of the "troika".... They agreed to lend Greece new money in 2010, 2012, with strict conditions. Now before they lend more money they want to squeeze blood. But, if Greece had another good alternative it wouldn't become like a third world country whereas foreigners would tell it what to do. Another hard truth? If you don't like the troika, then go to the international market (perhaps Russia?) to get financing. Well, Greece tried this a couple years ago, only to find out that the interest rates were 35-40%!! Why, because Greece is an extremely risky bet. So the troika lend Greece at rates up to 7%, but demanding the keys to the car and other life style choices. These are the facts. You can yell "national independence", against the creditors, this and that, but slogans don't make concrete policies that will get Greece out of this mess. PS> As I've said several times in my posts here, I'm not in favor of the economic policies of austerity when a country is in a slump. But, no matter what you do, systemic changes must happen so you don't return to the same mess. As I ..offered to pay the whole Greek debt off. But I asked, who can bet with me that if the debt disappeared today, right now, that Greece wouldn't be in similar mess a few years from now....

In rhetoric (or official ideology), perhaps, but in reality from ND-Pasok-Syriza, (older center parties, etc), have all governed the same. All have used the state mechanism to promote same goals & policies, tilted to their own voters. It's even more obvious when you examine the municipalities, whereas almost every party has governed, from extreme right to extrem left. A major difference between right and left parties (in the western world) is how the see the role of government--how much intervention and to what end. In Greece there hasn't been such distinction in reality. You can call it ERT or NERIT, it's all the same! :artist:

The Greek civil war was indeed about the direction of the country. But, let me tell you, since then there's no left and right in Greece, excluding the fringe parties of the KKE and the fascists, which are marginal and won't govern. All the other parties behave the same way with small variations. All use the state mechanism for patronizing. Their policies are in essence the same. Now, the interesting question is why....

What???!!!! :xxx: The guy was a great player, and I hope he still is, but I've seen too many like him coming to Greece and are really damaged so they don't contribute while they cost too much.