xanthi - pao

[adonis]

I completely disagree with banning of away fans. Why cant our fans go support our team on the road? And how will this help us in maintaining our Big Three status.

I can understand this concept from Ticket Club and PAO to present ID and monitor the fans attending games - it should just filter out the trouble makers. Should!

However its quite easy to blame Vardinogiannis right now or in fact every time something is not right at PAO.

But this family is the one who has brought us great European poreias. And yes have received many profits from Europe and not invested it equally into the club - but business is business and how else are we going to keep alive. Our PAE is the only one that has survived any financial problems. The AEKtzides are still glad to be around. At least we have never been in a position like that.

Den xeroume ti theloume kamia fora. Im not totalling defending Vardi but he is not the only one to have contributed to the problem at the moment.

If you still have the Basinades - Goumas era still around walking as if they were on red carpet wat do you expect.

[Elastonpappou 13]

ok..

know what fans go to PAO's games. All sorts, just like for any big club. The PAE knows who the trouble makers are they don't have to include me in there. They have camera's in the stadium, they have police, security. I don't appreciate being treated as a criminal when I am not one. I've been to a few games here between English clubs. No one ever asked me for an ID. Why should I give you my name? If someone in the street asked for your name would you give it? Or would you tell them to F-O?

Its not the streets its PAOs property!!! So re-think your argument. If you had somebody invited IN YOUR HOUSE wouldn't you asked his name? And if one fan throws a flare (and is not 1 believe me) and the other 2000 don't do anything about it why should Vardinogiannis do something about it? And to be honest he DID!!! I am 100% in favour of the ID system!!!! As far as the security goes, ask what they did after the game against Aigaleo... Idiotic fans from gate 10 started to throw things at the ref, the security people tried to stop them and everybody jumped on their feet against the security people and fought with them... So don't tell me about 1 out of the 2000 causing a problem because the percentage is much higher that that...... Probably 1900 out of the 2000 are causing problems!!!

Why do I get banned from attending away games? What did I or other thousands of PAO fans who have never picked up a single stone get barred from attending away games. We are the only club that has banned our fans from travelling.

Unfortunately this is the rule of life.. If the majority can't control a minority (as you claim) then everybody will pay the price... Cmmon you have been to the army you know how things work... How can you distinguish between thousandas who is and who is NOT creating problems.... This is unrealistic!!!!

You mentin the idiot that shot the flairs. You can arrest that individual, why should the other 2000 PAO fans get the blame for what one idiot did? If the club can't catch one individual then, that club is good for nothing

.

Same as above.....

We are all being treated as prospective hooligans and not only that. the PAE wants to ban anyone from attending PAO's games that would dare to boo Vardinogiannis. I'm sorry but I will not go somewhere were I don't have the right to express my views.

Expressing a view is one thing, but the WAY you express it is another... After all Vardinogiannis has proved several times that he doesn't care what the fans say about him (remember OAKA 65,000 people shouting Vardinogianni poustara vale ston ..............etc etc) The guy doesn't give a damn about what PAO fans think and this has been proven many times... He is not at PAO to have an army, he doesn't need one and he doesn't need to control the fans like Kokkalis does...

I am against the "laika dikastiria" against the players and coach, but just to let you know...the ones that go to the laika dikastiria are the ones that are barred from attending games.

Laika Dikastiria have been going on forever, even when fans were not banned at all... So tell me.. Who was doing the Laika Dikastiria then huh? Who went to Peania after the 3-0 of the Rizoupoli Fiasko and attacked the players, and made PAO look like the OSFP of the 80s? Who were the people who went to the airport 2 days ago and created problems? banned fans? I seriously doubt it....

hahahaha...where are those things because I can't see any of them. Once he gets them all in we'll speak again about it. New stadium...man mas 'toimazei to Elliniko, you know that? That will be our end!!!

Would you do it if you were the president? Would you spend millions of your own fortune and knowing that you will NEVER get your money back? With what? with a 15.000 stadium? (which is not even filled up?) And the Helliniko you mention, they are thinking it because they know that the GOUDI solution of the government is NOT actually a solution because all the alitirioi dimarxoi will start protesting and we will end up like AEK and Filadelfia issue... It will take years!!! Do you seriously think that if there wasn't a major problem they would have been thinking of Helliniko? There is no reason why they should accept Helliniko apart from the Goudi obstacles!!! (and we are not even sure of Helliniko.... We are just speculating, I still think its going to be Goudi!!!)

Yes. True. They bring someone which is not big enough for the club and our dreams, but then they fire him (although he is a success) firstly for no reason and secondly for someone that is more or less the same who brings terrible results. If they had fired Shum to bring Hitzfeld, I would have said good on them because I know what he has acheived. Scasny has achieved nothing.

Don't give me that! You know better than I do, that the majority of the PAOfans were against SChum even AFTER the double!!! So don't talk about success!!! Schum was critisised even after he WON the double!!! Olisadebe took the credit of the double!!! For Skazni I agree but who could you get at this particular moment in time? It was 2 months after the start of the league!

The AEKtzhdes have Demis. Demis who is a fan of the club. Tzigger and V are not. Tzigger and V. have been with us for 25 years now...they have won just 7 league titles. They built us no stadium, nothing. They made money in Europe and never spent as much as they should have. We all saw AEK's attendances in the previous seasons...."real fans" and my ass, they are the same as anybody else. They are happy they still exist.

You think Demis is a better president and Fan than Kapetanios? Let me tell you something.. Demis hasn't put a single penny from his pocket for AEK... He just used his influence to bring others and to bring security over their money. He hasn't invested anything!!! The other guy has done Peania 20 years AGO, when other clubs were hanging off trees eating bananas!!! And there is a big difference when somebody buys a club at its peak compared to others who buy the club at its worse financial distress, with no expectations whatsoever... Demis is smart and knew that!!! Even if they lose 10-0 on Thrusday no one will say anything against Demis because they compare him with Psomiadis and AEKtzides are grateful that they have him... Of course we compare Vardis with Abrahamovic and we are never satisfied with what he does.....

Not for the club they haven't, they have for the Vardinogiannis family. No club treats its fans the same way PAO does. No club at all. All clubs respect their fans and count on them to help the team both spiritually and financially. Our club wants neither thing from us apart from paying your ticket and shutting the F-U! No critisism, no nothing.

Oh really? So Kokkalis respects Oly fans by making them buy 3 season tickets as a package and not on their own huh? Or Demis respect the fans because on an 80.000 capacity stadium he places a season ticket at 150 euro? Or perhaps we should create a TV Magic and a tsoukala so tha we would earn our fans respect huh? Thanks but NO thanks!!! I don't call that respect!!!!!

We the PAE from my behalf can go F-I-S. I won't pay them a penny and nor will I shut up about the crimes they are commiting to the football club from every viewpoint. We are becoming smaller. When the 10 year old Panathinaiko Pitsiriki from Xan8h is not allowed by his club to go watch PAO who has come to him city, then why should he support PAO and not Oly where he can go with his gauro mates? PAO belongs to Greece not just Athens, it's just based in Athens.

Fine but you shouldn't expect anything more than Skazni or Bides!!! And as far as the pitsiriki for Xanthi its better for him to support Xanthi rather than PAO... And all PAO supporters who come with organised travel don't get to show their IDs. They still have access to Leoforos, they get the tickets from their local Syndesmo!!!!

Look at Giannakopoulos they do everything they can for the basketball team and always thank the fans for their presence. They don't ask for their ID's and they are always willing to chat with the simple fans. Something you will never see from V. No they are up on their high horse and we are nothing but inferior to them.

I wish cancer to fall upon the whole B. family.

And what is that? Not spending a penny over the past 5 years? Just rest with domestic success and don't care for european success? Especially at a sport with much lower budgets than football? Giannakopoulos couldn't keep the PAE not even for a week!!!! If they are such a magges why don't they take over the PAE then?

[Evergreen]

Its not the streets its PAOs property!!! So re-think your argument. If you had somebody invited IN YOUR HOUSE wouldn't you asked his name? And if one fan throws a flare (and is not 1 believe me) and the other 2000 don't do anything about it why should Vardinogiannis do something about it? And to be honest he DID!!! I am 100% in favour of the ID system!!!!

This is a wrong comparison. I already told you that there are hundreds of clubs that don't ask for peoples names unless they are season ticket holders. Only they have their name on their tickets. I todl you I don't like being treated as a potential suspect for trouble.

Unfortunately this is the rule of life.. If the majority can't control a minority (as you claim) then everybody will pay the price...

Only differance is that this rule applies only to PAO fans. If it was only for all fans over Greece I would accept it but it's not. The other clubs are not stupid. They know that their club needs fans to support the players.

Expressing a view is one thing, but the WAY you express it is another... After all Vardinogiannis has proved several times that he doesn't care what the fans say about him (remember OAKA 65,000 people shouting Vardinogianni poustara vale ston ..............etc etc)

Well I don;t know for the Kapetanio, but Tzigger( or Vardis) does. Hence back 4 years ago when our fans went to Vironas as we were playing Athinaikos and they had pictures of those that were instigating chants against him the week before.

Would you do it if you were the president? Would you spend millions of your own fortune and knowing that you will NEVER get your money back? With what? with a 15.000 stadium?

Hasn't Giannakopoulos spent millions and keeps doing so? You think the basketball teams runs on peanuts? Ante ksipna! This is without the attendances and the prices the football charges. Little money from TV, little money from tickets, and no money like you get in the CL. Dominique Wilkins was paid 7 million dollars by PAO. Vrakovic was on 2 million, Galis was on 2 million, Komazec was on 1 million, Alvertis and Ecomonou were on 50-60 mil when they were teenagers and then too signed for 1 million + contracts, so was Yannakis, so was Fanis, Dino Radja was on 3 million a year over 2 seasons, Bodiroga was on 2 million, Kutluay was on 1,5 , Byron Scott was on 1,5, Rebaca the same etetc Even Hupmann who waived the towel was on 500K!!!

Back in the end of the 90's PAO had a budget of 22 million dollars. The football team had 80 million drx contracts for 3-4 players the rest would get peanuts like Basinas, Karagounis, Goumas, Fyssas, Vokolos, etc.

The problem is the V. wants 20 billion drx to sell the club. I don't blame Giannakopoulos for not giving it. Why should he? Did V. pay to get the club? No!!! All he did was raise the "metoxiko kefalaio" that cost 80 million drx. He owns 71 % of PAO. Paulos has a share and I think it's 12% and 17% is owned by the eirasitexni.

The only money payed in investing in V had paid is at Paiania. That though does not belong to PAE PAO but Vardinogiannis. The PAO shop also belong to the "family" and not PAE PAO. Do you know that the football name of PAO AND IT's emblem belong to the "family"? Well they do. The only thing that belongs to PAE PAO are it's players and employees. Why should Paulo not give 20 billion to impove the squad and to buy Paiania for the club instead of giving it to Vardinogiannhs? If Vardinogiannhs loves the club he would not ask for that money apart from Paiania. I mention 20 billion because that's what Tzigger asked for to give it.

Paulos has won us 3 European Cups and taken us to another 3 F-4's bringing the greatest players from Greece , Europe and some of the best from the USA. What can you say to this ma, who is still challenging this season to win the EL? You read about Kutlauay? Thannasis said on Sat. our goal is to win the EL!!!

Please don't put Giannakopoulos and V. in the same sentence because It makes me sick. You can never compare G best intentions for the club with V. worst.

And the Helliniko you mention, they are thinking it because they know that the GOUDI solution of the government is NOT actually a solution because all the alitirioi dimarxoi will start protesting and we will end up like AEK and Filadelfia issue

I do not care, they should apply presure, threaten them even. PAO belongs in the centre of Athens, not outside the outskirts in no mans land. Look at Juve's attendances at the Dele Alpi! We they played in the Communale they had a packed house every game.

Oh really? So Kokkalis respects Oly fans by making them buy 3 season tickets as a package and not on their own huh? Or Demis respect the fans because on an 80.000 capacity stadium he places a season ticket at 150 euro? Or perhaps we should create a TV Magic and a tsoukala so tha we would earn our fans respect huh? Thanks but NO thanks!!! I don't call that respect!!!!!

I don't care. I'm not a Oly or AEK fan that is their problem. Why mention Tsoukala? I never asked for a Tsoukala.

Fine but you shouldn't expect anything more than Skazni or Bides!!! And as far as the pitsiriki for Xanthi its better for him to support Xanthi rather than PAO...

So what's that supposed to mean? Just because I wasn't born or am not from Athens I should not support PAO? Pappou, slap yourself for me for that one. I'll support whoever I like. Either it's PAO, Aiolikos or Galatasary.If that's is the case PAO should only play with players just from Athens too, just like Athletico Bilbao.

And all PAO supporters who come with organised travel don't get to show their IDs. They still have access to Leoforos, they get the tickets from their local Syndesmo!!!!

No. That is wrong. For their locval sundesmo to get tickets they have to be part of Athens fans and Palefip. Others do not get tickets who won't do what Tzigger wants.

And what is that? Not spending a penny over the past 5 years? Just rest with domestic success and don't care for european success? Especially at a sport with much lower budgets than football?

He hasn't spent a penny in the last 5 years? Slap your self again because in the last 5 years we have won 2 European Cup s and played in another final and you can't do that without bringing the best which cost the most. Who doesn't care about European Success? You call a drop in the budget, not wanting European success? We last won the euroleague in 2002 Papaou not 1802. The season after that we had an excellent record in the 1st phase with only 3 losses and then we lost bufford for smoking pot, alvertis with pneumonia and it screwed up our chances of going through. mind you we still finished with a 3-3 record. the same goes for last season.

If we cared only for domestic success he would not have brought Murray, or Baxter of Kutluaya we are tryint to sign now. we can still win the league without them.

[/b]

[Panos13]

I have just one thing to add to this V vs G debate.

Pappou you keep saying that basketball is run on a smaller budget than football and that's why G can spend so much more money than V. Fair enough, but surely footbal also makes more money than basketball?

The point is that V makes much more money from marketing, tickets, and biggest of all Champions League in football than G makes from the same things in basketball. But still he spends more money than he makes.

Proportionally speaking, if G had the PAE, he would make more money but he has proven that he would spend more.

This is one thing that I won't even discuss. Giannakopouloi have ALWAYS put their love for PAO above money. Vardinnogiannis have usually done the opposite.

[MadBoy13]

an o G eixe tin PAE.... forget about it!!! Kanenas den tha mas xtipouse...... tha eixame tromeri omada.... giati apla oi aderfoi Giannakopouloi agapoun ton PAO kai den tsiggouneuonte... to mono pou theloun einai na pigenei kala i omada kai den tous noiazei posa tha ksodepsoun..... alla einai ena megalo oneiro oi G na paroun tin PAE!

[HOLLYWOOD]

Pappou you touched on many things. I'll take them 1 by 1.

I know what fans go to PAO's games. All sorts, just like for any big club. The PAE knows who the trouble makers are they don't have to include me in there. They have camera's in the stadium, they have police, security. I don't appreciate being treated as a criminal when I am not one. I've been to a few games here between English clubs. No one ever asked me for an ID. Why should I give you my name? If someone in the street asked for your name would you give it? Or would you tell them to F-O?

Why do I get banned from attending away games? What did I or other thousands of PAO fans who have never picked up a single stone get barred from attending away games. We are the only club that has banned our fans from travelling.

You mentin the idiot that shot the flairs. You can arrest that individual, why should the other 2000 PAO fans get the blame for what one idiot did? If the club can't catch one individual then, that club is good for nothing.

We are all being treated as prospective hooligans and not only that. the PAE wants to ban anyone from attending PAO's games that would dare to boo Vardinogiannis. I'm sorry but I will not go somewhere were I don't have the right to express my views.

I am against the "laika dikastiria" against the players and coach, but just to let you know...the ones that go to the laika dikastiria are the ones that are barred from attending games.

You thinki those fans don't love PAO? You are wrong!

hahahaha...where are those things because I can't see any of them. Once he gets them all in we'll speak again about it. New stadium...man mas 'toimazei to Elliniko, you know that? That will be our end!!!

Management brings 15 NEW players in the squad you don't like it, they bring Schum you disagree, the fire Schum you STILL don't like it!!!

Yes. True. They bring someone which is not big enough for the club and our dreams, but then they fire him (although he is a success) firstly for no reason and secondly for someone that is more or less the same who brings terrible results. If they had fired Shum to bring Hitzfeld, I would have said good on them because I know what he has acheived. Scasny has achieved nothing.

The AEKtzhdes have Demis. Demis who is a fan of the club. Tzigger and V are not. Tzigger and V. have been with us for 25 years now...they have won just 7 league titles. They built us no stadium, nothing. They made money in Europe and never spent as much as they should have. We all saw AEK's attendances in the previous seasons...."real fans" and my ass, they are the same as anybody else. They are happy they still exist.

Not for the club they haven't, they have for the Vardinogiannis family. No club treats its fans the same way PAO does. No club at all. All clubs respect their fans and count on them to help the team both spiritually and financially. Our club wants neither thing from us apart from paying your ticket and shutting the F-U! No critisism, no nothing.

We the PAE from my behalf can go F-I-S. I won't pay them a penny and nor will I shut up about the crimes they are commiting to the football club from every viewpoint. We are becoming smaller. When the 10 year old Panathinaiko Pitsiriki from Xan8h is not allowed by his club to go watch PAO who has come to him city, then why should he support PAO and not Oly where he can go with his gauro mates? PAO belongs to Greece not just Athens, it's just based in Athens.

Look at Giannakopoulos they do everything they can for the basketball team and always thank the fans for their presence. They don't ask for their ID's and they are always willing to chat with the simple fans. Something you will never see from V. No they are up on their high horse and we are nothing but inferior to them.

I wish cancer to fall upon the whole B. family.

Finally, it's PAO 1908 and not 1979. They found PAO, not the other way round. If Mantzavelakis ever know what they were going to do, then they would have given the club to the Gianakopoulos bros. It's just a shame the B. had a bigger profile than them. They don't love the club nor the fans. They just look at us as business and every here and there they'll throw us a bone (Borelli, Gonzalez etc) so we will stop barking.

PAO they way V. runs it does not express me any longer. I have been patient enough and given them many opportunities to get it right. All they have done is make it worse.

Well said Evergreen :nw:

[Guest Protathlitis]

Well done for your whole post evergreen, well done for cutting through the bullshit and not just adding to the problem by agreeing with everything your managment does.

Osfp does have similar problems and its the ones who fanatically follow the clubs heirachy that can only make things worse

They made money in Europe and never spent as much as they should have. We all saw AEK's attendances in the previous seasons...."real fans" and my ass, they are the same as anybody else. They are happy they still exist.

exaclty, its makes me laugh to see aektzides saying what a great set of fans they are for sticking with their club.

[The2ndMouse]

Oh really!?

Well we still remember that sport and following a team is way beyond winning

We feel the club goes deeper than the current owner, deeper even than the current set of fans and we try to give it to the next AEK fans better than how we received it...

I think that some of you guys mix championships with team love sometimes.

Its not all about winning. And especially not all about winning the Olympiakos - PAO (and yes sometimes AEK too ) way...

[Guest Protathlitis]

Im glad you put "and yes sometimes aek too" there as well

Im not saying that love for the club isnt beyond success or that aektzides arent passionate. Its just that I keep hearing aek fans praise themselves for the way they 'stuck by the team' when like evergreen says; the attendences say otherwise.

what I was agreeing with was evergreen's statement that 'the fans are the same' - its true, we are all Greeks and sometimes we should stand back and say look how fickle we are being

[The2ndMouse]

Oh, fans and people are the same alright

But sometimes clubs attract fans based on raputation and sucess (and this says a lot about the specific fans priorities generally in life)

At least we at AEK cannot say we had a big share of glory, and can take pride in the fact that roots, origins, beliefs as factors of choice of club outweigh Glory Hunting mentality in our total numbers....

So some characteristics do exist

Dont underestimate AEK fans love for their team ...

And if I may go lower in Sise

Never NEVER underestimate PAOK, ARIS, Kallithea, Larissa etc fans love for the club if of course they are devoted to that club and not have it a second favorite to , say, Panathinaikos....

[Elastonpappou 13]

Ok I am not rying to convince anyone here.. I am speaking based on facts and you are speaking clearly based on the love of the team... I also love PAO and have been following PAO since 1987!!! But that doesn't stop me to think rationally.... I see that many of you are speaking about things that you don't know...

You say that football has much more income than Basketball, that Vardinogiannis makes money and so on.... If that is true could somebody explain to me why all the PAE in the A division have a NEGATIVE profit and loss account? Can you tell my WHY PAO has an 18mn EUR deficit in its P&L? And PAO is considered to be the best club financially... And still we are 18mn EUR short!!!!! How come? Is probably that the inflows are nothing compared to outflows? Is it maybe that in the last 1,5 seasons we got 23 players????!!! Ok you will argue that they were cheap but averagly if each of them costed 200,000 euro (which is much more than that) still we have spent 4.6mn EUR just on new players!!!! Do you know how many employees are employed in the PAE? Do you know who pays the security people? Do you know how many season tickets we have sold? So don't give me farytails about CL earnings and crap.... These are nothing compared to the expenses...

And your argument about Giannakopouloi is simply on the air... Ok lets assume that V. asked 20bn to sell the PAE... What is the problem for Pavlo paying 20bn if that spending would earn him MORE money in the future as you claim? If he could get an income from CL, commercials, TV, sponsors, why doesn't he pay the 20bn to buy the PAE and then make a profit like V. does? Its simple... Because NONE of them make any profits... NOt the PAE or the KAE!!! The difference is that the money injections for the KAE each month are much lesser than the monthly money deficit of the PAE.... And Giannakopoulos is not stupid!!! This is why he is keeping his distance from the PAE.....

Anyway everyone can have his own vies. Not a problem with that... But at least apart from the love we have for our team please put some reasoning in your thoughts so that you are more accurate in what you argue...

[Evergreen]

I've copy pasted the following from another forum.

Pappou would you kind enough to answer, or at least attempt to answer these questions.

[athinaios]

I got very upset reading this post... Missed opportunities cannot be corrected...they're facts and history now. But, anyone who doesn't learn from past mistakes is condemned to failure in the future.

Unfortunately, only a united front from the fans can bring change--a very hard thing to achieve today.

PS>I think this post should be moved to "PAO ISSUES".... because obviously we've exceeded the "Xanthi-PAO" topic

[Elastonpappou 13]

I've copy pasted the following from another forum.

Pappou would you kind enough to answer, or at least attempt to answer these questions.

[Evergreen]

I will just counter-reply to what you have chosen to.

1. In the 25 years Vardinnogianni era, when did you see PAO out of europe? (was it only once I think in 1997 or something, when other clubs, including OSFP, did not make it in the UEFA cup several times?)

We were also out of Europe in the 1982-83 season finishing 5th. Anyway, I expect a club of PAO's calibre never to out of Europe.

2. When did a PAO fan experienced a financial distress in his favourite club? When was an ungratefull PAO fan concearned about the survival of his beloved team?

Why should we even speak about this? When someone says "I'm a good guy because I don't beat on my wife and kids" are we supposed to praise him for doing the obvious? There is no excuse for the club to fall into financial distress. You can't dance to the tune any more then you say so.

3. Which PAO fan wasn't proud when great teams from all over europe (including Ajax) came to Peania (a training ground build from V. pocket!!!) to train?

This is something that we can "brag" about within Greece. No one knows or cares abroad of such thing. This is a norm for most clubs in Europe. I can't how this has proved to be an much of advantage over other Greek clubs. To sit down, others may just have a chair. We have a couch.

4. You mention stuff about the football ground. Do you know a free area not belonging to the state or anybody else that Vardinogiannis could invest in? Who invested re-making the Leoforo stadium in 2001 when the government was unable to solve the problem of PAO?

I just look at how Kokkalis got his way. V. should have twisted a few nipples. He never pushed hard enough for it. He'd mention it and hpe thing would happen on their own. The amount of procrastination that was done is a crime.

5. You talk about the sell out of the 1996 team. Who knew Ouzounidis, Georgiadides, Donis etc etc before 1996? Who brought them to Peania? Which is the only big club in team that invests in youth players and every couple of years we get to find a brilliant youth player?

You have a point here, but he never invested the money he got from the Cl that season which was a crazy amount of money for Greek footballing terms. The only decent player bought was Libe. He had the chance to clean up with Giannakopoulos, Djordjevic, Lakis, Mavrogenidhs over time. Yes we brought in Koutsouredes, Theo Nikolaidis, Ipirotides, Kiassoi etc. He lacked ambition when Kokkalis didn't. Kokkalis was making things happen whislt he waited for things to happen.