Olympiakos Appeal

[cyberfish]

That's a noble solution Euro2004, but unfortunately, there is no legal frame for such solution.

The only fair thing will be to let CAS decide as soon as possible and then go with it. If they decide to forfeit the Kalamaria-Olympiakos game, then we'll just call this a fair and final decision. If they decide to let the game stand at 1-0, then we'll respect that. The Greek sports courts can't be trusted. As far as I know, CAS is independent so what they decide I would consider final and fair.

If the decision comes late in the summer, the table should be adjusted then accordingly. I guess the real deadline is when EPO sends UEFA the names of the teams that play in CL and UEFAcup. I am not sure if we can change the teams then.

[athinaios]

For the life of me, this is incredible. Is this the "Super League" that would improve the sport in Greece? :LOL: :LOL:

Com'on, this is not worthy of a modern country.

This case shows beyond any doubt (to me anyway) that it's not worth getting too worked up about the games and the championship. It's all a charade. Too bad that too many people (and teams) suffer because of this incompetence/corruption.

Yeah, can you imagine a situation when the champion of 2007-8 sent to the CL is not the champion?!!! :LOL: :LOL:

[Kolokotronis]

I think that the only way to justly solve this problem is: if at the end of the season Olympiakos finish 1st and are up to 3 points clear then they should play a "final" game against whoever finishes 2nd to decide who wins the league. This obviously has to happen before the play-off.

So if it finishes:

Olympiakos 70

AEK 68

PAO 66

Then Olympiakos should play AEK to see who wins the league. If the gavroi finish 4+ points clear though then they shoud just be crowned champs.

The same should happen with Apollon with regards to relegation.

IDEALLY, CAS's appeal should have been dealt with much earlier, but since it hasn't it's a bit late to just deduct Oly 3 points now so that's why I'd go for this method.

With all due respect, thats absurd.

The season is 30 games long to determine the champ, those that qualify for Europe, and those that are relegated.

Its not 29 or 31 games, but 30. Unless there is a deadlock situation, which there is NOT, there is NO reason for an extra game. Oly either wins the game and the three points, or they lose the game and the points. There is NO in between.

[cyberfish]

If we are looking for fair solutions, we won't find them in EPO and Superleague.

These two bodies are infiltrated to the hilt by the big teams (mostly Olympiakos in the last 10 years) who use it to their advantage. Small teams suffer whatever rules the infiltrated courts make up, and big teams get to enjoy general immunity.

The Wallner case is very simple. EPO issued a registration. The player plays. If anyone files a grievance and they find that the registration was issued in error, they revoke the registration and from then on the player is ineligible to play. How much more simple can a case be?

Here is what I wrote in my blog a while back:

To give an analogy why this decision is so wrong:

You get your valid drivers license from the Department of motor vehicles. Presumably, everyone gets a license after their credentials are checked, and once they have it, they can legally drive their car.

Imagine if the cops stop you and tell you that your license is not valid because the DMV missed an obscure rule when they issued it.

Then you would expect:

a ) From that moment on to stop driving until you sort out your license problem or

b ) To be issued a fine for every day you drove your car with that license.

Guess what Kalamaria got: Got their license revoked, their car impounded, and were fined for every instance they drove the car.

[Kolokotronis]

I did a little research myself, and it appears FIFA (in its bylaws) has a cover your ass clause it forces member fa's and their clubs to adopt which basically precludes clubs from adjudicating soccer decisions (by FIFA, UEFA, Natl associations,e tc...) in civil court.

So, for instance, if the CAS decision went against Kalamaria they could not then sue EPO in civil court for the expected economic loss. The wording is interesting because it mentions precluding litigation based on decsions of the governing bodies, but not malfeasance/negligence of these same bodies.

btw, your drivers license analogy isn't entirely correct. The status of your drivers license is determined SOLELY by the entity which issues it (DMV, Secretary of State). So even though they ISSUE a license, they can suspend or revoke it at any time and you will be deemed to have driven on a suspended or revoked license if that suspension or revocation was in effect AT THE TIME you drove.

[athinaios]

The driver license is usually suspended for things you do after you get it and drive. In the event you obtained it by fraud, again, it's taken away. But, they don't punish the company who work for as a driver! The company hires you as a driver BECAUSE you HAD an official license!!!!!

And, in the US, even if you sign a contract that says you can't sue or whatever, there are certain cases that this is not valid in court. For example, some landlords put illegal provisions in the rental agreements that people sign to get an apartment, but even if you sing that the landlord can take you kid away for not paying rent, this is not legal. You see what I'm saying?

Same with Kalamaria. If the teams sign an agreement that they can't sue EPO (or whatevet) in civil courts, I'm sure there might be ways to do so, because it's clear the league's governing party is incompetent or corrupt...not abiding by its own rules.

Just a thought.... I understand things don't work that way in Greece, but...

PS>I don't know if anybody cares, but Oly is diminished by this whole incident, getting a title like this. Even though PAO hasn't gotten a title in a while, personally I wouldn't celebrate if we cheated a title like this.

[DUDE]

I think that the only way to justly solve this problem is: if at the end of the season Olympiakos finish 1st and are up to 3 points clear then they should play a "final" game against whoever finishes 2nd to decide who wins the league. This obviously has to happen before the play-off.

So if it finishes:

Olympiakos 70

AEK 68

PAO 66

Then Olympiakos should play AEK to see who wins the league. If the gavroi finish 4+ points clear though then they shoud just be crowned champs.

The same should happen with Apollon with regards to relegation.

IDEALLY, CAS's appeal should have been dealt  with much earlier, but since it hasn't it's a bit late to just deduct Oly 3 points now so that's why I'd go for this method.

With all due respect, thats absurd.

The season is 30 games long to determine the champ, those that qualify for Europe, and those that are relegated.

Its not 29 or 31 games, but 30. Unless there is a deadlock situation, which there is NOT, there is NO reason for an extra game. Oly either wins the game and the three points, or they lose the game and the points. There is NO in between.

I think the point he's making is that if there are 3 points in it then it should be treated as a deadlock situation which is not absurd at all. It would be an extraordinary solution for extraordinary situation. It will be the only way that the winners can rightfully claim to be champs.

[Kolokotronis]

No it wouldn't be a deadlocked situation. Either AEK wins by a point, or Oly wins by two points. There can be no other solution.

What do you guys propose to do, give Oly two of the three points and AEK one so that they finish the season deadlocked?

[Kolokotronis]

The driver license is usually suspended for things you do after you get it and drive. In the event you obtained it by fraud, again, it's taken away. But, they don't punish the company who work for as a driver! The company hires you as a driver BECAUSE you HAD an official license!!!!!

And, in the US, even if you sign a contract that says you can't sue or whatever, there are certain cases that this is not valid in court. For example, some landlords put illegal provisions in the rental agreements that people sign to get an apartment, but even if you sing that the landlord can take you kid away for not paying rent, this is not legal. You see what I'm saying?

Same with Kalamaria. If the teams sign an agreement that they can't sue EPO (or whatevet) in civil courts, I'm sure there might be ways to do so, because it's clear the league's governing party is incompetent or corrupt...not abiding by its own rules.

Just a thought.... I understand things don't work that way in Greece, but...

PS>I don't know if anybody cares, but Oly is diminished by this whole incident, getting a title like this. Even though PAO hasn't gotten a title in a while, personally I wouldn't celebrate if we cheated a title like this.

What you're taking about is unconscionable terms in a contract rendering it null and void. Ther should be something analogous in European (CAS) law.

[athinaios]

I'm making 2 points:

1. You don't punish a team (a company) because they hired someone who had obtained an official permit! {I haven't seen EPO blaming Kalamaria for doing something improper}

2. That a team (or a person) signs a contract that contains "unconsciable" or illegal or improper terms, certain rights aren't surrendered automatically. If there's a gross violation there's a way to go to civil courts. Contract law is full of such instances.

Now, just think what this EPO decision has done.... Never mind the damaged credibility of the league, but how about such a decision affecting what team wins the title and which team is relegated... big money difference!

[Kolokotronis]

Kalamaria didn't sign any contract.

The "cover your ass" terms in the FIFA statutes are forcibly adopted by the confederations and their member leagues and clubs as a prerequisite to FIFA inclusion.

[cyberfish]

I personally think it's a good thing to only use sports courts for sports disputes. It keeps the real courts from getting inundated with frivolous cases. OTH, there are cases that go beyond sports affairs, like the Bosman case that changed the European football landscape overnight.

Kalamaria's case is not that serious. Determining the outcome of a Greek game is really small potatoes in the grand scheme of things.

Whatever the outcome, there are no winners. Olympiakos won three points and might win a title, but they have marked themselves as sore losers and machinators that would do anything to win even lost games. It's been a mark that has followed them over the years, except this is the first time the machinations have been in the open.

Greek football has acquired one more bruised eye. Even if Olympiakos wins the case on legal grounds, the overall impression is that winning a game on paper, for reasons so marginal to the performance on the field, is terribly unfair.

There is not one person in the entire country who thinks this case would have gotten this far if the roles of the clubs were reversed. Once again we have been exposed to the stench of the dead-and-decaying Greek football system.

[Kolokotronis]

No, I think you're wrong here. Kalamaria's suit wouldn't be for a sporting matter, but rather for economic loss resulting from EPO's blunder. THOSE damages are VERY real, not imagined or trivial. As would AEK's damages be if they lose out on a CL spot as a result.

[Crazy]

So pretty much with the way that our standings are at this moment,we just need to figure out who will face Pao in the playoffs????Or who do they prefer???I wish Olympiakos loses the 3 points and the title but have 2 more games against Pao in the playoffs.........that would be great,since most of you and the newspapers are in love with Aek lately.......and i really like the way some minds work......Pao-Aek 2-1 & 1-1 ,Olympiakos-AEK 1-0 & 0-4,Olympiakos-Pao 1-1 & 0-0,so that makes AEK better and more deserving of the champioship?????

By the way,can u guys send your example with the driver licence to the Portugese team that lost tha game and -6 points also on a similar case???

PS.Sorry that i am a little bit evil but i find this hilarious,that the biggest topic/replies in the Pao forum at this very moment is one that envolves Olympiakos name and not your club......... :LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

[Kolokotronis]

No, what makes AEK a DESERVING champion is:

1. Most points earned on the pitch

2. Most wins

3. Most goals scored

4. Least goals conceded

5. Better head to head with a +3 goal differential from OSFP.

No matter which objective criterion you look at, AEK deserves it more.

p.s. You can throw in top scorer as well. :LOL:

[athinaios]

Sorry, Mr. Soprano :P Some of us are annoyed that gavros might get another title because of corruption/incompetence. That's all. I agree with you that there are other important issues, but talking about what's irritating is a way to blow off some steam. So it happens, Kokalistan is a problem in Greek football and we can't avoid discussing it! :angry:

I don't know the Portuguesse case, nor do I care about it. I examine the case at hand and, again, it doesn't make sense IF things worked normally. They don't, so we talk about it....

But, I think the time will come that things will change and certain people might have to go into the witness protection program... The Don eventually falls! :LOL: :LOL:

[drakos13]

No, what makes AEK a DESERVING champion is:

1. Most points earned on the pitch

2. Most wins

3. Most goals scored

4. Least goals conceded

5. Better head to head with a +3 goal differential from OSFP.

No matter which objective criterion you look at, AEK deserves it more.

p.s. You can throw in top scorer as well. :LOL:

yeah its true......AEK are the real league leaders at the moment....

[Guest TheLegend]

No, what makes AEK a DESERVING champion is:

1. Most points earned on the pitch

2. Most wins

3. Most goals scored

4. Least goals conceded

5. Better head to head with a +3 goal differential from OSFP.

No matter which objective criterion you look at, AEK deserves it more.

p.s. You can throw in top scorer as well. :LOL:

all this means nothing because in the end you are behind in points. If the top scorer means that you deserve to win the leauge then you guys should have been dead last for years back..

and in that matter....

Classiest player : LUCIANO!GALLETI!

so that means that all points aside thats how the title is decided as you say ;)

[Guest TheLegend]

Sorry, Mr. Soprano :P Some of us are annoyed that gavros might get another title because of corruption/incompetence. That's all. I agree with you that there are other important issues, but talking about what's irritating is a way to blow off some steam. So it happens, Kokalistan is a problem in Greek football and we can't avoid discussing it! :angry:

I don't know the Portuguesse case, nor do I care about it. I examine the case at hand and, again, it doesn't make sense IF things worked normally. They don't, so we talk about it....

But, I think the time will come that things will change and certain people might have to go into the witness protection program... The Don eventually falls! :LOL: :LOL:

the portugese case is the same thing illegal player played and the team lost the game and -6.... these are FIFA RULES THAT ARE BROKEN SO BECAUSE YOU GUYS ARE UPSET THAT KALAMARIA FEILDED AN ILLEGAL PLAYER DOESNT MEAN FIFA RULES CHANGE GET THAT IN YOUR HEADS

ante geia! ;)

[NYPAO13]

PS.Sorry that i am a little bit evil but i find this hilarious,that the biggest topic/replies in the Pao forum at this very moment is one that envolves Olympiakos name and not your club......... :LOL:  :LOL:  :LOL:

Remember this topic was locked almost immediately in the gavro forum.

Just a little info to a mod ;)

ooops a supermod, my bad :whistle:

[AEKPROTATHLIMA]

TheLegend(QUOTE)these are FIFA RULES THAT ARE BROKEN SO BECAUSE YOU GUYS ARE UPSET THAT KALAMARIA FEILDED AN ILLEGAL PLAYER DOESNT MEAN FIFA RULES CHANGE GET THAT IN YOUR HEADS

Well the problem here is that EPO gave Kalamaria the ok to play when they gave the guy his Green Card. So if you give the guy his Green Card that means that h is elgible to play. But ofcourse no one expexted that Kalamaria was going to beat Olympiakos. So after they beat Olympiakos on the pitch in a game that Olympiakos had one chance with Kovacevic in the second half they went to EPO(wich is basicly Kokkalis :D ) and won the game on PAPER!!!!!!

NTROPH SAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tsoglani]

News on the CAS issue:

http://www.sport-fm.gr/article.jsp?id=127382

http://sports.e-go.gr/article.asp?catid=81...12&pubid=962464

http://www.goalday.gr/article.asp?catid=10...13&pubid=962420

http://www.sportdog.gr/new/article.aspx?id=62226

If this decision is towards Kalamaria Play-Offs could be canceled cause of no free dates to be held .

[Crazy]

PS.Sorry that i am a little bit evil but i find this hilarious,that the biggest topic/replies in the Pao forum at this very moment is one that envolves Olympiakos name and not your club......... :LOL:

[Crazy]

But, I think the time will come that things will change and certain people might have to go into the witness protection program... The Don eventually falls! :LOL: :LOL:

I am in waste management and i dont know what are u talking about Dons..... :P :LOL: :LOL: :tup: :tup:

[cyberfish]

Crazy,

this thread has been the only place on the web where we can find info on the case. The reporting has been lacking severely in the Greek press.

As far as football is concerned, it's pretty serious because it nullifies a game and the league table for reasons that are pretty pathetic IMO.

Anyway, here are the links to the actual CAS case:

http://www.tas-cas.org/en/infogenerales.as...-0-1092-15-1-1/

and the official CAS press release:

http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/document/8...15191225873.pdf

CAS will have the hearing on April 17. Apparently, from other reports, Panathinaikos has also intervened in CAS (not clear how), and probably AEK as well.