athinaios

This is an interesting article (very long) about the history of violence in Greek sports: http://www.contra.gr/Longread/via/ta-prwta-epeisodia-to-sok-me-mpliwna-kai-to-ksulo-se-zwntanh-metadosh.3869810.html These kind of things one could witness in a under-developed country or a failed state.

I have to disagree. The so-called elites* in Europe (and we have to define what this means) have relied on nationalism not on ..undermining national homogeneity. Then the follow up question is, who would benefit from this breakdown of national homogeneity?.. Further, would the elites benefit from a ..revolution? (as some here wrongly believe that people revolt when their quality of life declines) *the traditional elites aren't as strong or solidified as they used to be, because economics and politics have changed.

I believe it's cultural. It starts with no respect toward others. Anyone who knows Greece can tell you that its citizens have no respect for any law and of course no respect toward others. This "anarchy" is demonstrated everywhere, from how people drive, to throwing garbage everywhere, noise, etc. And, as we've seen with the new leftists, they are just as bad as using the state for patronage and corruption. I'd say 80% of Greeks are steeped in this kind of culture. With no serious law enforcement, it has become a ..game to engage in violence. This atmosphere has become the norm. The hooligans have harmed the sport and their own teams. Of course, there are ways to keep them out. We're not trying to re-invent the wheel here. Other countries have done it. But, in a system of general malaise, it's hard to do anything.

You know what I'd really love to see? All organized fans, peacefully demonstrating for a fair league. And, all agreeing that from now on, games should be a celebration of the sport where fans from both teams can attend a game! And, they can do this without approval by anyone; just agree to co-exist in the stands, like other fans do in many other countries, like Britain and Spain.

I would mess with him, and renumber the gates, possibly giving them names instead of numbers, like "green power", " Leoforos garden" and " Athenian agora", etc..

There is a on-going argument in the Greek American community, which tends to be conservative.... How does a person maintain his Greek roots? The prevailing view--and from those leaders in the community--is to be a good Orthodox and ultra patriot of Greece. Of course, there are some of us who reject the notion that in order to appreciate Hellenism you have to be part of the political (old Greek politics) and especially the Greek Orthodox church. I do acknowledge that the glue that brought together the various people in the Greek War of Independence was religion, not language. Of course, there were other factors why tribes, ethnic groups and westerners wanted a Greek independent state. After the formation of the Greek state*, the Church sought to establish a theocracy, and most leaders and people wanted to define the new country by its religious identity. The church was able to revise history--see official history textbooks taught in Greek schools. The church leadership had been against the revolution, although several priests--uneducated and close to their flock--did participate in the struggle against the rulers. Historian Paparigopoulos and all other "official" Greek historians believed that whatever served the nationalism of the new country was ..right. Making Greeks out of a diverse population in the melting pot (especially in central and northern Greece) was paramount and thus historical truths had to be sacrificed. Not unlike the path other countries too, most recently FYROM. The policy of the early Greek state was to ethnically cleanse the area of non-Greeks, which meant: non-Xtian. * Even though the Greeks in Europe and the Phil-Hellenes were children of the Enlightenment, this humanist revolution wave never really touched Greece. It can be argued that the countries that missed the E. in the 17-19 centuries developed politics distinct from the European countries which were influenced by the E. Still today, many Greeks do not accept several of the major values of the Enlightenment. Yes, many of these countries are part of a greater Europe today, but there's still a big difference between the western and eastern European countries and the reason is the E and its effects.

Tsk. Haven't you heard of selective memory? Of course, people want to claim Alexander's glory, for example, but not the brutality by which he got it. Greeks in particular have the curse of their ancestors. I haven't met any other group which within minutes of meeting them they mention the glory of their ancestors and thus claiming how special they (descendants) are. Italians come a distant second. Don't you understand the concept of motivated reasoning? @#4: Excellent example in support of what I'm saying here. You pick and choose the sources that make you feel good. Like all the faithful, who having not examined why or how they came to their core beliefs, are explaining everything under the sun by citing a book. Well, in that case, my book ("To Serve Man") says it is right and all the other books, including yours, are false! ...... PS> Maybe Lazarus, our tech genius, could answer your questions about the Phantis software. Every time I go into the basement to looks at the ..machine I don't want to start messing with it. Instead, I pick up a bottle of aged wine.... ;)

Well, I wonder how many nations would actually feel shame for committing crimes against humanity? The Germans and Japanese did, and that's to their credit. It's natural for younger generations to say we had nothing to do with those crimes and thus develop and different attitude. Very soon no one will be alive from WW 2 (who was an adult back then). How many 90+ year olds today bare even indirect responsibility for what happened back then? The reasonable people tend to be in very short supply in times of crisis. Societies under stress create myths to explain their woes, and blame others. Also they create people who are xenophobic and fans of conspiracies. The quality of democracy, or the system in a given country often depends on the quality of people involved. ;) Patriotism is like religion. In the minds of many, it cannot be questioned. I think your problem is that you seem to believe people are motivated by reasoning and knowledge.... Tsk.

Has anyone noticed that all nations have the highest opinion of themselves? [the 2 notable exceptions in the years after WW2: Germany and Japan; and that's to their credit actually] That they believe they're very good people, who have never done horrible things on purpose or in grand scale. That their enemies, especially neighbors or ethnic minorities within are monsters. That history shows how great they've been. That their culture and religion are superior to everyone else's. That are the most heroic. That they are the most talented. And, of course, the smartest...

Well, you know, it's like Pythia's edicts... Take what you want, interpret it as you prefer.

Nation-states are relatively new phenomenon, most were formed in the 17-20th c. People were told (made to feel) that a new entity was to capture their allegiance because now they weren't simple subjects but citizens! Obligations but also benefits. Gradually, nation-states became entities full of nationalism/patriotism. How do you build such? By giving certain real or perceived benefits plus lots of propaganda (even brain washing). It's been very successful as most people became rabid supporters. Hate of others isn't new; it began with "us versus them" and it had to do with competition for resources among various groups. But the hate of others present in all modern states (at least in their earlier stages) rose to great heights. De-humanizing the enemy--something that all nation states have done--was one way to raise nationalist fervor and to make it easier to kill the enemies. Guess what? Most people actually like this as it simplifies everything and gives them the special identity they crave. National myths are built often with little regard to historical truth. And, there's a built-in defense mechanism, like a good effective virus that infects a body (or a mind or a ..computer) that when it detects an effort to question it, it labels the operation as "treason" or "enemy" or the workings of the "devil"...

So, which are the teams most likely to go through? Interesting, besides PAO and the 2 Turkish teams, the rest have no notable history. Also, interesting that soccer superpowers don't have strong (if any) basketball teams with a few exceptions.

Well, well, whatever makes me feel good is right, historical, and obvious superior to anyone's experience. The Souliotes--a fiercely independent people--worked as mercenaries for many, and jumping camps was not unusual. Much like most people did during the Byzantine days. The Souliotes were considered as a buffer between the Ottomans and the Ionion islands occupied then by various western powers. I think they worked for the French at some point, They worked for Ali Pasha of Ioaninna too, but that was a wrong decision... The idea of getting paid for fighting wars is interesting. Someone may even say that if money was the prime motivator then where was the "nationalistic" fervor, you know, patriotism?

It doesn't matter what they were singing. It was a heroic action only Greeks were capable of. Ah, those Souliotes. Interesting bunch. Do you know they were paid by lord Byron and threatened to quit fighting for the revolution when he was late paying them? They visited him at his sick bed and threatened him with bodily harm if he didn't come up with their ..money! It must have been those Souliotes who were Albanians (and didn't speak Greek),

Ninis tore Roma because he wasn't expected to! When he's expected to do something he falters. He's not a leader. He could very well be a good asset for PAO if the team begins to play better and has a couple other leaders. Not all players have to be leaders or have the ability to turn a game, but in the right scheme Ninis can be helpful for a team like PAO.

First, with this kind of play, we don't deserve anything better. No matter who was in the lineup for a team like PAO should be able to dispatch Panthra who hadn't won a home game this season and has the worst offense (bad defense too). As for Ninis, he's not a leader. I remember back when he was called the Greek Mesi! ;) Anyway, I think Ninis does better when there are a couple other leaders on a team. And, if I remember correctly, he does better on a ..better team not a bad team or when the team isn't performing well. By himself, he doesn't make the difference. As far as this result goes, nothing is lost now. All was lost last summer, and if there was something left that was lost before the non-derby. Now it's the playoffs and the cup.

For me, Alafouzos is ignorant of football and managing a club like PAO. However, if it weren't for him, PAO would have followed AEK to 3rd division. And, it's not like he stole the club from someone else who wanted to invest big $$. It was almost criminal what Tzigger had done to the club, not protecting the team for the money he had. Unfortunately, PAO was a ..toy given to him by the family. The last insult was to deal with Tsakas.... Oh, maybe it was Votanikos?.. <_< Then we had the big shots who, yes, spent $100 mil and got the double, but when they left, the club was in debt. Alafouzos still pays players from years ago. And, he was good in negotiating with them for paying them in installments. OK. If true, Ala's $23 mil. may not be enough for some people, but no matter what the actual number may be, Alafouzos has not made money with PAO. It may be Pateras who's helping out these days. (I don't know Ala's financial base). So, where's anyone else who cares about PAO and has the financial ability to raise this club's fortunes???? In a perfect world, investors/owners might be interested in PAO, but who would nowadays? when the league is so corrupt, the gap between the rich Euro teams and the rest is huge and increasing? Look at gavros, with $20 mil from CL a year, after year, and a wealthy owner and can't do much in Europe. What is it that PAO could do better? Honestly can you tell me? Please don't say,.. ah the history.... Well history is in the past and its the curse of Greece--always looking back not ahead. And, I doubt any of our players really knows or cares about the club's history. Greece missed an opportunity to revamp it's league after Euro 2004. It may be too late now. We've been saying this for years, that a sport in a modern country has to be entertaining to attract fans given the competition for a person's time out there in the last 15-20 years!. People over 40 know a time when there weren't social media, or lots of ways to spend one's time, so sports was a domain of great interest. We may be rabid fans but we are also a diminishing group. Most Greeks have turned away from football. Games turned out to be opportunities for violence (and I don't care who starts it), and crappy spectable, so people don't go to see games and they don't watch games on tv either. Do you think this can change? How? I mean given the reality in Greece....

I don't know Alafouzos' ability to spend (not his worth, but his cash in hand), but Pateras and Tzigger were and are very rich. Therefore, I blame them for leaving the club in such a financial ruin. Also, that they didn't use their power to control the Oly owners. Very bad management too. Under Pateras, they spent more that $100 mil, but today the club has to pay David a former player who did nothing for us (from the Pateras era) $800 thou. as CAS has ruled. :tdown:

The problem isn't really that poor people are going to richer countries to better their lives but cultural differences. So, the question is how to best integrate them into the culture of the host country. Once a country makes the decision to accept immigrants (and usually the advanced countries need new blood), then the key is, in my opinion, to show the new arrivals that another way of life--that of the host country--is better. With a better life, people begin to change their views and practices. The more isolation of minorities within a country, the worse it is as ghettos maintain the resistance to integrate and foster extremism. It turns into a vicious cycle.

Oh, we have too many winged rats (pigeons) around here too. They must die, along with Canadian geese, European starlings, sparrows, and deer. I know the last one aren't birds, but when we start the culling they should be included. Peace.

Shhhhhhh. Be quiet. Nobody likes this stuff. Certain topics cannot be discussed, because they invariably turn into: who did the worst or who started it first (no limit how far back you can go); once this is established, then the other side(s) have a reason to excuse everything that followed, no matter how bad it seems.... tribalism dictates that "the others" are sub-human, increadibly stupid, and their culture sucks. throw in some conspiracy and magical thinking sex! oh, yeah! The best defenders of the historical truth, fighters for god, team, and country, happen to also think that they're great F***ers.. and, who apparently want to demonstrate how right they are by wanting to F*** their opponents! :1eye: the glory of the ancestors curse.... (can you guess this one?)

Accor6, buddy, you tend to always find another bad situation or a bad example to give cover to bad behavior. Your method has been perpetuating this idiocy in Greek sports for way too long now. And, I'm defining "idiocy" as doing the same thing over and over expecting different results!... An eye for an eye, and soon people are blind. Perhaps for some people victory means to be the last man standing ontop of the rubble. Whatever... I'd be happy to talk about the injustice in the US, but how would that be the guide as to whether destruction of public & private property plus endagering human lives should take place?? Further, there's a big difference between civil rights violations/abuses and incompetence/corruption in a particular sport. This is not like picking up arms to defend the country against an invading army. I'm sorry to see you advocating violence as the solution here. I'm not a pacifist, but I don't consider violence as the best way for action all the time and everywhere! I can have an argument in a civilized way, and as a consumer I can boycot businesses and sports leagues, and whatever else I think it's corrupt. As to pulling pants down, I find this rather immature. I don't think using sexual inuendos or sexual analogies makes any argument stronger. Sorry, mate, but I expect more maturity here.

I get why people are disgusted by favoritism, corruption and treated unfairly by the state. Still, no one has the license to destroy private and public property and threaten people's lives. This includes the incompetent police and those who are in charge of law and order. This bullshit is endemic of Greek society and must stop. In the end, it's Greeks hurting Greeks and the country (including its image), more so than anyone else outside Greece. Frankly, if nobody bothered to show up for 1 year, I bet you none of this bullshit would be going on today. Same with a lot of other stuff in politics. Who elects those crooks and who believes their crap? But, in a way, it's become the culture of modern Greece to complain about everything, believe in magical solutions, being selfish, while no one really wants to fix things by changing themselves first. I'm disgusted by what's going because I care, but I'm also disgusted by the small-mindedness of so many people. It's a culture that has to change.

This is a great place to be, because, no matter what, the team wil have several euro games left. The gap between the rich teams and the rest is very wide. Only by some miracle lesser teams can break through. Yes, you'll make good money getting to the 16 for 2 games, but realistically that would be it. In the Europa you probably play more that 2 games, so even if the money is less you get more games and showcasing your brand in a greater market. This also gives incentives to good players to come to Oly and this shitty Greek league.