La Mendel

You are right, Maniatis was a catastrophe versus Croatia. He was arguably OK versus Belgium as a right back. But who uses Maniatis as a wingback when he has Retsos (who is now better than even Kyriakos imo) or who starts with Tziolis as a DM (when he wants to park the bus) instead of Maniatis? Maniatis was mercilessly exposed, his manmarking was disastrous, he didnt even know that Perisic is his man (allegedly other players from the bench shouted at him during the game) when he should have been even somewhat useful if he would have been played as a second DM alongside Zeca who played on the wing. Even now I cant believe how stupid Skibbe was before that game, given that Retsos can play even as a LEFT back (he played for Leverkusen as a LB some weeks before) and Skibbe chose Maniatis as a RB, Kyriakos as a CB and Tzavellas/Stafylidis on the left side. None of them should have been preferred over Retsos who can do better work than any of those in those positions. Zeca wasted as a winger, when he was our only capable defensive midfielder. Maniatis exposed to laughter as a right back (which wasnt his original position), when he could have been even useful in that formation as a DM. Surely he is a better choice than Tziolis? Granted, he plays for an unglamorous Turkish club. But Turkey is at least a competitive league while Tziolis plays for one of the worst teams in a holiday league. Siovas could have been played as one of the three central defenders too. But he wasnt even called up while Oikonomou and Kolovetsios and the likes were in the squad. Samaris starting despite not having many game time in Portugal. At least Karnezis was OK, he made a fault before that penalty but had two or three fine saves and was completely helpless before the second, third and fourth Croatian goals. Ah well, I guess we could make a much longer list of Skibbe's faults before and during the playoff matches. Despite the many injuries and out-of-form players, he bungled that away game.

Yes, Kone looks like something out of Dumas. (That moustache.) I didnt mention him just because he is not a squad member now. Same goes for the Samsunspor duo G Samaras & M "The Tattooed Guy Who Couldnt Save a Dangerous Shot to Save His Life" Sifakis. Bakasetas, Tziolis, Fortounis and Karnezis should have been added to my list. To be fair, Mantalos doesnt look that well. If I remember correctly, eight or ten years ago Greek footballers almost without exception were as ugly as the devil's grandmother. Now everybody looks like a male model, and not only in the NT (take Galanopoulos alone!).

We have several problems nowadays. Where are players like Avraam, Salpingidis, Karagounis, Gekas? The whole team or at least the majority consists of male models and poster boys. Where are the tenacious and dogged Greek fighters like those around Karagounis? Salpingidis, Patsatzoglou, Katsouranis, Spyropoulos tried always hard (regardless of their abilities) when they played together with Karagounis and under the direction of Otto and Santos. Samaris, Tachtsidis, Stafylidis, Donis, Fetfatzidis, Mantalos etc. are promising and good-looking and talented but where are the players who can lead us back to successes at the World Cup and the Euro? Torosidis, Manolas, Sokratis and Zeca cannot solve everything and we should have more attacking options than only Fortounis and Mitroglou. The other attacking midfielders, wingers and forwards are just there on the pitch, they are wholly average at international level, they dont score they cant do anything!

Our last friendly game was that of versus Belarus in November 2016. We did not have any friendly games in 2017. This is Skibbes fault. I understand that the EPO doesnt have any money, but we should have played at least four friendly matches last year. I dont think there was another team that had a chance to qualify to the World Cup and did not play a single friendly in 2017. Skibbe should have tried new players and formations (like that employed versus Belgium, 4-4-1-1, or that used versus Croatia, 5-2-3) in these games. If we would have had an Otto or Santos type coach last year, we would have played several friendly games. Players like Vellios or Bakasetas wouldnt have started then in crucial games, Lykogiannis and Kourbelis would have gathered more experience, Maniatis the Right Back would have possibly been exposed before that match in Zagreb etc. etc. Rehhagel would have banged the tables if EPO wouldnt have organized any matches in a whole year. Same goes for Santos. Skibbe is perhaps not hard enough.

He scored at last on 24 December versus Ümraniyespor but they lost 4-2 (his goal from 1:25, he took advantage of the keepers bad positioning). Sifakis got the start too, the second goal he conceded was a joke.

He is a Swede with Greek origin (there are some Greek guys in his family).

He scored last week but they lost to Eintracht Frankfurt (1-2).

Samaras' season as bad as before. He has played 7 games so far, and neither has scored nor has given an assist. Sifakis is a constant benchwarmer. (Cf. the accomplishments of these ex-internationals with the stats of great Andreas Tatos [Elazigspor]: 11 games, 3 goals, 2 assists.)

Tachtsidis, Fortounis had their problems after signing for Olympiakos but they became regulars eventually. Probably the same goes for Kone (he has had arguably more problems than the two aforementioned players), lets hope he will be a vital member of AEKs midfield!

I am glad Kone has decided he wants to play football after all (it was a great goal).

Karagounis had the best spirit in the Ethniki until his retire. He was the Greek fighter par excellence. His absence was always much felt (as versus Germany, Euro 2012 quarter final). With the bunch of players of today we should really play more attacking football. Like they did against Belgium (away game, until the red card of Taxi). The defensive robotic style did not suit them because players like Samaris, Tachtsidis, Tziolis etc. cannot fight. As a defensive midfielder, one should have much more tenacity than e. g. Samaris has. He was arguably our worst performer versus Croatia in the first half - and there were several players who were s%$#!. I wonder if Santos realized this at the end of his era. Against Colombia we played in the old defensive way but went down rather easily (of course Holebas made faults, and others too). Against Ivory Coast in the crucial game he didnt employ the trusted method he had used against Russia at Euro 2012 in another crucial game (defense first and counterattacks). We played in a kamikaze way (sort of), scored twice, hit the bar three times, had a couple of chances that went wide (Salpingidis' effort in the 85th minute). Against Costa Rica, we did not just sit at the back like Rehhagel's team did sometimes. Eventually we lost, but Navas had a great role in that, and we had plenty of opportunities (Salpi chance in the first half, Mitroglou's header during extra time, another chance when Mitro and Gekas hindered each other etc.). With players like Manolas, Sokratis, Stafylidis, Samaris, Tachtsidis, Fortounis, Donis, Mitroglou etc. we cannot play in an extra-defensive way because we wont get results. Where are the days of the Karagounises, Zagorakises, Dellas, Charisteas, Salpingidis etc. Now we have Mantalos, Donis (who scored 1 goals in 9 games this year for Stuttgart), Gianniotas (a great talent who does not play for a Spanish second division team) and other nice guys.

OK lets be realistic, only players who are active and have a team and are getting game time should be called up. Anestis could be the keeper he has had 6 shootouts so far current season, Torosidis the captain and right back, Avraam plays for Brisbane Roar and Malezas is a sub for PAOK. Giannis Papadopoulos, Tatos, Maniatis, Hussein Mumin (Aris Thessaloniki) could be midfielders. Patsatzoglou, Fotakis and Taralidis play for third tier teams in Greece... that isnt enough to warrant call ups. Lagos would be a vital member in my NT... unfortunately he doesnt have a club for the moment. As for our attackers... Gekas, Salpingidis, Kapetanos, Mantzios, players with the right mentality and fighting spirit are free agents. We could employ Mitroglou and Fortounis, however that would mean we need players who can play really well on the wing like Salpi did... This would mean a starting XI like this: Anestis - Torosidis, Malezas, Avraam, Zaradoukas - Maniatis, Fortounis, Zeca - Tatos, Mitroglou, Klonaridis. Surely I am right if I state we have better material than this... or not? Unfortunately our NT members of today do not have seemingly the same fighting spirit as Super League players a decade ago... perhaps they have more skill and raw talent but I am afraid we lost some part of that toughness that led us to success between 2003-2014. There are those like Kolovetsios who are tenacious but not good enough and those like Samaris who have plenty of talent but less perseverance. Maybe we should adapt a new playing style that suits our mentality. The only problem is that even now our center backs are our greatest asset and this is the sole position where we have real depth.

What We Are To Do Now Enough of the pusillanimous cowardice of the Mykonos generation and our current coach. We should rehire Rehhagel (he is a free agent while Santos isnt). We would have a team of fighters again. Not the sorry group of the first leg of the playoff games. Imagine a XI like this starting: Anestis Galitsios - Malezas - Avraam - Zaradoukas Kafes - Prittas - Patsatzoglou Kapetanos - Gekas - Salpi (I know Salpingidis and Kafes retired, therefore they would have much free time and would be always available for the Ethniki. Same goes for Galitsios, Gekas, Prittas, and Kapetanos, who are free agents.) I bet such a team under Rehhagel would have gotten a better result against the Croatians.

I said before: he is essentially a Fetfatzidis 2.0.

This is right, the World Cup qualification would have been a wonder with this group of players and we can add to the list Tachtsidis (does not start even in the Super League regularly), Samaris (didnt play for Benfica because of a suspension), Oikonomou (cant play for one of the lesser Italian teams), Bakasetas (he isnt a regular player for AEK), and occasionally Bouchalakis (his case is practically the same as that of Vellios), Siopis (loaned out by Olympiacos and being a "talent" at 23), Koutroubis & Kolovetsios (wholly laughable choices), Kapino (squeezed out by a 35-y-o Proto) etc. etc. And if we want to be honest, Mantalos and Christodoulopoulos are only slightly better than they. Karnezis, Stafylidis are useful players but they almost did not play this autumn (that is, before the Croatia playoff games) for their respective clubs. Torosidis struggled with injuries. Still I think Santos could have managed this qualification phase somehow, but it would have been a lesser wonder if we would have qualified with this pool of players. Skibbe made faults of course, but we shouldnt be unjustly hard with him. He cant call up Kroos, Casemiro and the likes for our midfield, and he did everything to secure Zeca (best defensive midfielder) and Villafanez. He did solve some of our difficulties.

A great post but with all doo respect, I dont agree on every point. Mandalos is actually no better than Ninis (and plays in the same position in the NT, on the right wing while being a central attacking midfielder, thats why he is so poor against better teams). Fortounis is the only one who can be compared to Tsiartas. And we have Manolas, Sokratis Papastathopoulos, Mitroglou, Zeca, even Torosidis and Retsos, but other members of the squad are not that outstanding. They were promising, yes. Tachtsidis, Samaris, even Christodoulopoulos. But they have not developed that much. I would choose a 37-y-o Karagounis and Katsouranis even now over the likes of Kone/Mantalos/Tachtsidis. The comments on Ninis and Fetfatzidis are very true. Incredibly, Ninis is not even thirty and has been done for years as for the Ethniki. Fetfatzidis plays in Saudi Arabia. They dont deserve a call-up. You are right when you say Switzerland, Croatia and the likes are stronger than they were before 2012. Same goes for Belgium. (They didnt even participate at Euro 2012. Nor did Switzerland.) Yes there were some curious members in the 2010 squad. But they were only backup players. Prittas, Malezas didnt play at all. Kapetanos got half an hour, he wasnt that bad. Spyropoulos played in the second half vs Argentina. (Yes, Karagounis shouldnt have been subbed off, especially with Katsouranis and Torosidis struggling with minor injuries - they had to be subbed off too, right after the pause - and twenty minutes after their disappearance, our defense did collapse. No wonder Patsazoglou and Ninis wernt able to save the day, we lost our leader and our potential leaders in ten minutes.) But Rehhagel could achieve something (a first win vs Nigeria, some good defending vs Argentina) with a squad like this. Yes, in 2012 we had Makos, Malezas, Lymperopoulos, Fotakis. The 2014 squad looked really good. I thought it was the best available squad. Yes, rankings played an important role in our qualifications. Between 2010-2014, we were always in top 20. Santos lost only six games out of 54 or so. An incredible feat. And we didnt lose a single friendly with him except the Romania and South Korea game (with clearly experimental teams, especially on the former occasion - some guys like Kapino Malezas Giannoulis got their first caps ever). Friendly wins / draws were important because of the rankings, and the ranking because of the seeding. Thats why got Romania, and not Portugal or Croatia in the 2014 playoffs. Thats why we had not-too-strong qualifying groups. But now, we havent played a single friendly game since the Belarus game. I dont understand this. Yes, we had the luck that we were pot 1 teams. But thats not only luck. Coaches like Rehhagel and Santos understood that ranking is important because we couldnt win over much stronger opponents and that we must have been seeded. We played many friendly games against opponents who were neither too strong nor wholly insignificant (so Greece could win some points with a win/draw). We worked very hard for Pot One. That said, still it would have been a heroic feat of Skibbe if we would have qualified over Croatia. OK, he couldnt manage to do it. Bad tactics, bad formation and starting XI cost us much, of course. Maniatis, a defensive midfielder couldnt have a chance against a guy like Perisic (who plays perhaps for Internazionale). Retsos should have been RB, and Maniatis should have played instead of Tziolis/Samaris (the former has not the work rate of Maniatis, and the latter had not too much game time before the Croatia game). And, what is more important, our trusted 4-3-3 should have been used. Also we should have played more offensive, like versus Belgium in Bruxelles. The overcautiousness (is there such a word?) of Skibbe against Belgium at home and Croatia (away) did cost us much. A team like this: Karnezis - Retsos, K. Papadopoulos/Siovas (where was he?), Papastathopoulos, Tzavellas - Zeca, Fortounis, Tachtsidis/Maniatis - Christodoulopoulos, Mitroglou, Stafylidis would have been much better. Remember that before the red card of Tachtsidis (65th minute) we controlled the away game versus Belgium seemingly without a great effort. (I know it was a great effort, though.) Remember at the 2014 World Cup we played against Ivory Coast like kamikazes. We hit the bar three times before the Samaras penalty. Also there were dangerous efforts from Karagounis/Christodoulopoulos/Salpingidis that went wide. After some initial problems, Santos did find the most useful tactics. This was a concentrated defensive performance versus Russia in 2012. In 2014, he tried another approach, but always with success.

Portugal would have never been champion if they wouldnt have played "like they are 103rd". Obviously, a nobody of a "coach" still understands the game better than Santos (and yes, the Santos bashing continues, even in 2018 and after two unsuccessful qualifications).

Eternal question of fans. How could ANY footballer who is over 29 do ANYTHING for a national team? They have no place in a national team, and they should retire from Ethniki. Fans always want young talents like Limnios and Koulouris, and an attacking-minded team. I said it again and again: This is NT, the best players should play in every position, no matter if they are well over 30. We are not like Brazil, Argentina, Spain who have always a lot of great talents, in every generation. Certain players can keep their position in our starting eleven until they wholly fade away (Salpingidis, Samaras) because of lack of real, younger talents. 1. Karagounis and Katsouranis played for us until they were well over 30 and after their departure the team rapidly deteriorated. 2. How many 30-y-o or older players were in that Portugal squad that won Euro 2016? (I can remember only Pepe, Eliseu, Bruno Alves, Ricardo Carvalho, Rui Patricio, Quaresma and backup keeper Eduardo now.) As for Kone, yes, I would like to have him back. I am glad he begins to play for AEK, his constant absence has been getting more and more alarming. And AEK does a great work in EL, they save so far the honor of Greek club football. Sorry for being possibly rude.

Guys, our hey-days are over. Possibly Pelkas and Kourbelis and Siopis could be better than some of our present midfielders (Samaris), but that doesnt make yet a successful team. Siopis is on loan. Pelkas and Kourbelis look more promising. Retsos is a really great talent. Lamprou, Limnios etc. have not proven their worth yet. (Think of Ballas, Koutsianikoulis, Fountas, Kolovos, Vellios etc.) Without a coach like Rehhagel or Santos, without Karagounis, our leader and with the present group of players it would have been a miracle if we could have somehow qualify for the World Cup.

Avraam Papadopoulos scored two goals versus Melbourne City (video is in the Transfer rumors topic, unfortunately, I made a mistake)

I wrote a long post and now it is lost... As for the theme of the topic: I think we will probably rise a bit. Dont forget we drew Croatia in the second game, and theyre around 18th position. For the same reason, our loss in Zagreb wont affect our position very much.

The Golden Age of Greek football was 2004-2014. Perhaps there will be a second golden age, time can tell.

So, its essentially a Daniil (Dellas/Ouzounidis)/Iordanescu (Skibbe) choice. Good midfielders are at the moment nowhere (except Zeca + Fortounis). Talent pool is small. Quality of the squad is worse than at any time between 2003 and 2014. AND we will have a trainer who is less clever/experienced than Rehhagel or Santos was. Lesser players + lesser coach will take us back in the Dark Ages. I pray that I may be in the wrong.

Lazaros was fairly useless against Gibraltar defence, Gianniotas is a bench warmer for a LaLiga2 club, Tachtsidis is average at this level (international games), Pelkas is inexperienced. There is only Fortounis. As I said before, our main problem is that we should build a solid midfield out of basically crap players. Mediocrities everywhere as one can see. This applies to the wingers too. Mantalos is another Ninis, and unfortunately Gianniotas is only a Fetfa 2.0. We know where the originals play now. Bakasetas a very average player. Only Zeca and Fortounis are some good. If we would sign a Greek coach, everything will be over. Daniil era will return. I dont know whether EPO will have even so much sense (one doesnt need very much) to sign a foreign coach who understands our brand of football. (I aint even sure that this brand still exists and it havent expired with the departure of Karagounis/Santos/Katsouranis.)

"promising Tachtsidis, talented Fetfatzidis" good! :)