La Mendel

Zeca in Samaris' place who was worse than invisible.

To explain the absence of Siovas is getting harder and harder.

We must face it: our Golden Generation was the 2004-2014 team. Especially our midfielders are far far worse than key players of our All Stars Team, Zagorakis, Basinas, Giannakopoulos, Karagounis, and Tsiartas. Katsouranis was the last one among them. Now we have glittering mediocrities (Samaris Tachtsidis Christodoulopoulos Mantalos + Ninis Kolovos) and hard-working nobodies (Maniatis Tziolis Bouchalakis + Petsos). We should reactivate Katsouranis and Karagounis (I know it isnt possible, but the team must have leaders who have authority because either of their achievements/experiences or their abilities). Among our players of today, only Sokratis Papastathopoulos has the qualities of a leader. Those F***heads who didnt give Santos in 2014 the greater salary he wanted are among the main culprits. With that great coach at the helm, we would have somehow continued to overachieve like before 2014. One cannot win games without winning the midfield (as perhaps tantra said before the game), and since 2010-11 we did this with basically crap players. How Santos was capable of such a feat like two second rounds with Katsouranis & Karagounis who were actually mummies in 2014 and with the likes of Maniatis, Ninis, Holebas, Kone, Samaris etc. etc. thats beyond me.

It should have been like this: Karnezis - Retsos, K. Papadopoulos, Papastathopoulos, Tzavellas - Tachtsidis/Maniatis/Tziolis, Fortounis, Zeca - Christodoulopoulos/Bakasetas/Pelkas, Mitroglou, Stafylidis. Our trusted 4-3-3 would have worked, even if Lazaros/Bakasetas/Pelkas would have been almost certainly invisible. We should have been more offensive, and Samaris shouldnt have been there at all. Even Kourbelis would have been better.

A disaster, we have gone downhill since the first Belgium game. There the NT was in control until the red card. Then at home Skibbe tried with an extra-defensive tactics, and now even with five (or six? or were Maniatis and Stafylidis wingers?) backs. We should have played like against Belgium away, with counterattacks, not the park-the-bus nonsense. Boxou was right before the game: if one sits only back there defensive live will be broken. And now there was almost no line. I am sad for I was for overall defensive tactics but it was overdone now and this backfired. Karnezis gave away a stupid penalty, after that he was OK, had three or four fine saves. Maniatis was horrible, Retsos should have been RB and Maniatis DM (alongside Zeca), Papadopoulos and Papastathopoulos were not that bad, the latter was arguably our best player. Tzavellas was slightly better than Maniatis or Stafylidis but had a very average game. Stafylidis made a laughable fault. Samaris was crap, one of his worst performances. Zeca put up a decent fight, played with heart & passion, he was one of our better outfield players. Tziolis was the usual grey and mediocre defensive midfielder. Fortounis was not that bad, gave an assist, and delivered another great corner at the end. Mitroglou at least tried, he was far from his top form. Retsos had an acceptable second half performance, Tachtsidis could not be worse than Samaris, Bakasetas was sometimes painful to watch.

There is even a reddit thread on the theme:

We will start with four center backs if Gazzetta's information is correct. Starting XI can be like this: Karnezis - Torosidis/Retsos, K. Papadopoulos, Papastathopoulos, Tzavellas - Maniatis, Stafylidis - Zeka, Tziolis/Samaris - Fortounis - Mitroglou. http://www.gazzetta.gr/prokrimatika-mundial-2018/article/1158936/i-skepsi-gia-maniati-extrem-kai-foyl-amyntiki-thorakisi

Well said Skank, this is a national team and not a talent developing center. They should play for their respective clubs regularly before they get call ups. Five years ago, Triantafyllopoulos, Iliadis, Katidis, Vellios, Diamantakos etc. were the promising players, like Limnios, Lamprou, Koulouris are now. Everybody can see where the aforementioned play now. Ages ago these talented kids were called Masmanidis (does anyone remember him? he was a youth team player in Germany), Koutsianikoulis, Fetfatzidis, Lampropoulos etc. So-called talented footballers often do not have a great career in Greece. Retsos plays at 19 for a Bundesliga team, everywhere in the world you can see youngsters are starters for famous clubs, he is the only real Greek talent now. There may be late bloomers (Holebas was one, and arguably Karnezis too), but these guys who are skilled and "look promising" while being on loan at 23 are probably new versions of Mavrias, Athanasiadis & co., what would mean they will never be useful at international level.

Stafylidis is injured (it is a wound), he can do only roadwork, he cant train with Augsburg teammates. I dont know when he will return. Maniatis was injured too, on 25 October in a Turkish Cup game, something was torn perhaps in his knee, possibly he will be okay before the first leg, they said he will be out for 2 weeks (that was the reason of his absence on the last matchday). Lykogiannis played full game for Sturm Graz (they won 2-0), Petsos played only 2 minutes against Admira Wacker Moedling (Rapid won 1-0). There are many injuries but there is a chance that several players (Torosidis Manolas Stafylidis Maniatis Donis etc.) will be okay before the first game.

Samaras remained on the bench on Saturday as they won 3-0 against Gaziantepsor. He played so far on 5 matches, scored zero goals. (Sifakis didnt play at all since the start of the season). Btw the title should be Giorgos Samaras - Samsunspor.

Avraam Papadopoulos (Brisbane Roar) scored a goal against Wellington Phoenix in the 68th minute, then won a penalty in the 81st (converted by Maccarone who scored a brace). The game was a draw (3-3), although Brisbane had been down to 0-3 after 20 minutes, Brisbane got their first point in the season (after 4 games). From 3:48 his goal, then the penalty:

Of course one always supports NT even if they are not on the right road (see Euro 2018 qualification). (I now see one of my sentences in my former post seems to imply that.) The best players should play in the NT in every position. If theyre well over 30 (see Torosidis, or the recently disappeared duo of Karagounis & Katsouranis, or Basinas, or Zagorakis, or anybody), than thats that. Santos chose a few older guys (Carvalho was 38) and Portugal won European Championship in 2016. A Postecoglou type coach would have kicked Carvalho, Quaresma, Bruno Alves (34 years old in 2016) and the likes (except maybe Pepe) out of the squad, and they could have played some attractive football but they would never have won the Euro.

Hello ausgreek (and everybody), I didnt want to post but I kept reading. You all gave a great support for the national team last year but I can understand that, Skibbe got us back to the right road with his defensive tactics and "closed club" method (I bet Rehhagel endorsed this idea).

If Ouzonidis will be NT coach, we can as well shoot ourselves in the head. I hope we can qualify and Skibbe remains. Donis' injury seems to be serious. Transfermarkt says he wont be available until the end of this year. President of Stuttgart says they wanna sign new attackers because of lots of injured and out of form players. More problems: our players dont seem to get game time on this last occasion before play-off games. Bundesliga: Stafylidis is still injured (another problem, did you know anyway?), Retsos was subbed after first half and 0-1, Sokratis played 90 minutes (they lost 2-4 to Hannover), K. Papadopoulos too (Hamburg lost to Hertha, 1-2, he gave an assist, however). Serie A: Torosidis still injured, at least Oikonomou (SPAL) played 64 minutes (with the lot of injured players, perhaps he will get a call-up), Manolas will be probably available against Croatia (did not play now). Premiership: Karnezis was on the bench as Watford lost to Stoke. "Super" League and other championships: Fortounis played 90 minutes as Olympiacos lost to Panathinaikos (0-1), Kourbelis was captain of Pana as usual, Mantalos & Bakasetas will play tomorrow (if they will) for AEK. Tachtsidis was benched vs Pana (he played only 2 games in Greek league), same goes for Kapino and Samaris (Benfica). Zeca's Koebenhavn did not play yet. Tziolis was a starter again (90 minutes, they lost to a weak Saudi club and could be last after this matchday). Tzavellas played a full match but Maniatis wasnt in the squad (Alanyaspor). Karelis played after a year or so again for Genk (0-0 vs Kortrijk). Almost the whole Belgian press mention the return of Karelis and says he could have been a hero but unfortunately he missed a penalty. Fun fact: Avraam played for Brisbane Roar and scored his first goal in the season as they got a draw vs Wellington Phoenix (after 20 minutes they were down to 0-3, end result 3-3) but he wont be called up (he shouldnt). On Saturday, Sokratis, Kyriakos Papadopoulos, Retsos, Fortounis and Tzavellas were in the starting XI of their respective teams. Samaris, Tachtsidis, Kapino, Karnezis did not play too much this year, and now even Maniatis is struggling. At least Karelis returned and could get a call, I hope he will. I think we can manage it, but it will be tough.

The question in front of us is as follows (headline): How To Build a Solid Midfield Out of Players Who Are Basically Crap?

Performance of NT players (potential squad members) in the season: Karnezis (Watford) – didnt play at all, always benched Kapino (Olympiakos) – 5 games in Supa League, on last three occasions didnt play; 1 games in CL, last game vs Barcelona: Proto plays, he is on the bench Anestis (AEK) – plays regularly but he wont play vs Croatia, he has still no cap Torosidis (Bologna) – he does not play regularly, last week he was a starter but got injured after 25 minutes and seems to be out (forzaroma.info says recovery time will be 2-3 weeks) Manolas (Roma) – right now injured, his return expected just before the first playoff game Papastathopoulos (Dortmund) – was suspended last week, but he always plays if he is available, he is captain of Borussia, our greatest player K. Papadopoulos (Hamburg) – started as they lost to Bayern (0-1), plays regularly (8 starts in 9 games) but his team is struggling. Retsos (Leverkusen) – played last week as a right back, at the age of 19 he is a starter for Leverkusen, our only top talent. So far he played 5 games out of six in Bundesliga. These 4 players are almost always on the pitch if they can play and they play for strong teams (all of them centre backs in principle, but Retsos is fielded often as a right back, probably Skibbe will use him as a RB). Tzavellas (Alanyaspor) – plays for a mid-table Turkish team but he is at least a starter (7 games so far). He didnt play on the last two occasions because of a suspension. Stafylidis (Augsburg) – unfortunately played only 10 minutes on 1 game, benched four times, now he has muscular problems, is it possible that he too will miss these games? I hope not. Siovas (Leganes) is in great form and should be in the squad. 6 games, 540 minutes, Leganes conceded only 1 or 2 goals in these games, and they held Atletico Madrid at bay. Unfortunately he was almost always overlooked in this campaign. Lykogiannis (Sturm Graz) – at least he plays regularly for his team and they are leading in Austrian Bundesliga. Possibly he will be called up, but I dunno whether he will start even if Stafylidis wont be OK (only 1 cap). Samaris (Benfica) – was suspended until now, played a single game in Portuguese league (90 minutes) and was subbed in in a Champions League game (16 minutes). First Belgian goal was partly his fault, I dont know if he should start now; the main problem is we have some options as DM but none of them is good enough. Tziolis (Al Feiha) – this weekend: he started on the bench for his Saudi team, and played only six minutes. He missed their previous game; before that, he had been a starter but his team is struggling. Maniatis (Alanyaspor) – played 8 games out of nine, but he was only a sub in last 2 games (he played 18, then 19 minutes). I aint too happy with the situation of our DMs: Zeca is OK but who will be his partner? Samaris is suspended (Liga NOS) and benched (Champions League), Tachtsidis is almost never fielded (see below) although he isnt suspended, Tziolis didnt start last week for a sub-par Saudi team and Maniatis seems to be a sub of a very average Turkish team. Zeca (Koebenhavn) – four games out of six, on Sunday he wasnt in squad vs Aarhus (they won 4-0) and he missed their Europa League game vs Zlin too, because of fatigue. Their coach said before the Zlin game that Zeca seemed to be tired against Odense and thats why he didnt fly to the Czech Republic with the team. Still, Danish media labels him as one of the best players of Copenhagen, and I am pleased to know that he at least wont be tired versus Croatia. (I think he must start.) Fortounis (Olympiacos) – has a great season, four goals and one assist on five league games. It was slightly surprising he didnt start for them on every occasion, although he was always on the pitch in CL games (so far he has 3 games, 1 assists). Tachtsidis (Olympiacos) – A very poor season start, he has so far 2 games in Super League (one start, 116 minutes). Didnt play in CL games at all (stayed on the bench vs Juventus and Barcelona). Pathetic. At least Tziolis and Maniatis have some game time, Tachtsidis cant even start for his „top” team. Kourbelis (Panathinaikos) – he is captain of a mid-table Greek team, he is solid but played only 3 minutes for the NT so far, I dont think he could start. Mantalos (AEK) – he is their captain, scored several goals, but he is only goody-goody at international level. If he starts (probably he will) he will be used as a winger again but that is quite OK, Fortounis is in better form right now & he is more skilled. Christodoulopoulos (AEK) – he is on fire nowadays. At international level, he is simply not good enough, he was average even vs Gibraltar! Possibly he will be in the squad but I dont think he will start nor that he should. Mitroglou (Marseille) – scored on his debut vs Strasbourg in the 88th minute, next time (last week) he was subbed off after 66 minutes. In Europa League he has 1 start and no goals, but thank heaven he seems to be in-form now (scored vs Cyprus and Gibraltar too). If he is in good form he is capable of everything (cf. his three goals vs. Romania or his away goal vs Belgium). We have practically no other striker like him, he must be a starter. Donis (Stuttgart) – scored 1 goal in 7 games in German Bundesliga, but he has now a minor injury. It would be very important if he could return before the play-offs because he is our only dangerous attacker behind Mitroglou. Karelis (Genk) – he is healthy again after a year, he played for their second team. There is a weekend before the playoff, possibly he can get some game time (it would be good). Bakasetas (AEK) – he seems to be a member of the closed club, will probably get a call-up. So far he scored 1 goals in 5 league games and played in Europa League too. He could have some part in the play-off games, he is good at defending, he isnt very much of a threat (after all, Donis has this year only one league goal too). He cant start for AEK (in EL he was subbed in three times and so far he played only 54 minutes)! Diamantakos (Bochum) – still injured, not much use Vellios (Nottingham) – provides absolutely nothing and he didnt play a single minute for his Championship team, he was on one occasion on the bench, they had already 11 games Gianniotas (Real Valladolid) – another international attacker/winger who plays for a second tier team but he is at least some good. Scored 2 goals in 5 games and one goal in the cup, although he was used mainly as a sub (only 1 start in those five games). The main problem is that several players of the NT didnt play at all, even if they play for mediocre teams. In our potential starting XI, only Manolas (lets hope he will be fit), Papastathopoulos, Kyriakos, Retsos, and possibly Fortounis and Zeca play regularly for a good team, there are four important players – Karnezis, Tachtsidis, Samaris, Stafylidis – who didnt play at all or got only a little time and now we have probably lost Torosidis too. Tzavellas, Maniatis, Tziolis, Mantalos, Lykogiannis are regulars of average and sub-par teams. It would be a huge feat if we could win the playoff because several members of the squad got off to a shaky season start. Still, I think it is possible. Defensive tactics, team unity, a tactically astute head coach, a couple of class players like Sokratis and Manolas – these factors can contribute to our success. It will be interesting to see whether Skibbe will use our traditional 4-3-3, the somewhat similar 4-2-3-1 or he will go with four defensive midfielders like versus Belgium. There are a few players like Koutroubis, Siopis, Androutsos, Manthatis, Bouchalakis etc. who can be called up but neither do I think they will play even if they will get call-ups nor do I they should. If we look at the (potential) squad at large it presents a somewhat sorry picture overall but there are some light spots.

Allegedly Bernd Schuster is one of the candidates. I wouldnt mind a German head coach, he would instill perhaps a little discipline and organization into the team.

A very good article: Fernando Santos, we miss you. "Santos' four principles for victory: organization, concentration, passion and trust." There is a total lack of these at the Ethniki now. http://www.sdna.gr/podosfairo/euro/euro-2016/article/111667/fernanto-santos-mas-leipeis

A little more realistic analysis from Tsanas than yesterday. "We should have a base and have players that have a strong personality", he said, and added, "We will qualify for the Mundial if we have the elements that launched us in the past." He is right: "The manager to come should understand our players' style." He mentions again, however, that Greece (ranked 44th) managed to held the World Rank No. 7. Romania at bay, and thinks nobody questioned Ranieris decision to call up Mantalos and Diamantakos. http://www.sdna.gr/news-english/article/111568/tsanas-troubled-greek-national-team

There were injured players but that doesnt explain however why was Mantalos played as a starter. Kone after a week with a club would have been better. Tziolis - a player much more useful than Mantalos - could have played too but he was overlooked by the big name clown.

Versus Croatia Karagounis was only 34, Katsouranis 32. In 2013 vs Bosnia they were two years older, over 30 two extra years can mean a lot, several players retire before 36 or even 34. I think that explains the declining performance, they were getting older and older. There was in 2013 a game versus Liechtenstein which was horrible (though we won). Santos had no better midfielders, that why Katsouranis played as a starter until he was 35 and Tachtsidis and the likes were mostly benched (under Santos Tachtsidis and until the WC Samaris were behind Tziolis in the hierarchy - that means theyre not good). I think we could have beaten Finland and the Faroe Islands 1-0 with long balls and 2 DMs, perhaps Hungary or Northern Ireland too. We could have had many problems because of the transition and the lower quality of the younger midfielders, but in that system we should have been to qualify. Norway and Albania (!) will earn probably a playoff spot. The last sentence is true. Unfortunately there is no successor of Karagounis or Katsouranis, this is partly the reason the team plays how it plays.

Holebas seemed really good and built attacks, but versus a stronger team than Finland we could have had problems because of him being out of position. I can imagine Tsanas will be surprised vs Romania. Fetfatzidis is inconsistent, sometimes he was good as vs Hungary, but he had some mediocre matches too. I dont mention Ninis (ofc hes better than Fountas & Co., but that isnt much).

The teams you mention won against us as Greece used to won. ~ 40-45% of the possession, defense, counterattacks. Sounds stupid, but yesterday in a sense Finland was Ethniki.

Stability I think. And he is among the better midfielders we have. He isnt an excellent DM, at international level max a useful player, but who should we call up as a midfielder, Pogba?

1. I would say (as for the keepers and defenders, those who was called up now are OK): Midfielders: Maniatis, Tziolis, Kone, Fortounis, Petsos (?), K. Papadopoulos as a DM, Samaris & Tachtsidis (for the moment as a squad player). At a pinch even Makos, just not Klonaridis, Kolovos and the likes. Attackers: Mitroglou, Samaras (only if he has a club), Salpingidis (?, only if he has a club), Fetfatzidis (as a squad player). Christodoulopoulos? Perhaps Karelis? More question marks. 2. At the Euro none of them played as a centre back, Dellas and Kapsis were the centre backs.