athinaios
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Posts posted by athinaios
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You can't compare Greek idiots rioting for a day to Muslims who will turn your country into filth. These people are demanding all kinds of stuff and blocking trains etc... Who gives them this right. Is their a rule we have to take a bunch of Muslims in the country. They can easily go to Turkey but no they want to go to Europe because Europeans are generally gullible and stupid and "feel sorry" for them. Then its too late and you turn into France where you have monthly attacks from idiots. Why aren't fellow Muslims like Kuwait and Saudi Arabia taking them in. These countries are rich from oil too. Because they don't want these people in their country causing strife.
OK. This is a good, nicely-stated argument within the forum's decorum here.
Now to respond.... Greek sports fans have done worse and for what?!! It's often a media and public frenzy about an event that conveniently forget the big picture. For example, recently some American doctor went for a safari in Africa and killed Cecil the lion. My goodness the outrage, the media coverage, and mobilization of groups, etc. First, the issue of lion-killing for sport is complicated (this is not the place to debate it), but second, I don't think anyone would have noticed if an American killed an African while visiting/vacationing Africa. Oh, the funds raised for the preservation of lions but how about the millions of humans who die of malaria? (not to mention other preventable causes)
I happen to agree with you about the problems of large immigration waves. I've said so in this thread. But,we disagree about how to handle them and what becomes of them once in a country. European leaders should be leaning hard on the Arab and Muslim countries to take these refugees. This includes Turkey. IF this is an existential threat, impose sanctions, like they do on a country that threatens the EU or dumps people and products into the EU. But, it's not humane to gun them down, starve or drown them.
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Dear friends,
This is a hotly-debated issue, but it has escalated to insults. This will not be tolerated here. No personal attacks and no calling anyone "filth" or other derogatory names. I'll go back through this thread and start deleting plus ..awarding yellow cards.
Damn it. This is not how I want to spend my time on my day off.
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Look, scenes like that don't help the immigrants' cause. Through selected videos out of context or without all the relevant facts are pften used to incite. Personally, I condemn such acts, though these scenes are rather ..mild by comparison.....
Also, it's not "those Muslims".... Xtians, including Greeks, have done things like that, even riots much worse than what this video shows. Have you forgotten deadly and destructive soccer riots?!! Those Greek fans from all Greek clubs have done worse and not because they wanted ..bread, or water, etc.
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Unless conditions improve in those war-torn, poor countries, there will always be illegal immigration, so it's in the interest of the wealthier countries to be proactive in foreign policy with long-term vision. In the near future, the changing weather & environment will produce more refugees. The Middle East is getting drier, whereas with the rising of the oceans countries like Bangladesh are going to lose much of their land.
Now, what do you do with those who are risking life to enter a country? Shoot them? Drown them? Arrest them and keep them locked up until they starve to death? I'm amazed that so many.. good, devout, pius, Xtians with apprarently the love of Jesus in their hearts, are saying just that!
The other problem is integration. I recognize that very different cultures are clashing. When newcomers arrive in big numbers, they establish their own communities where they try to preserve their own culture which is often very different than their natives'. Conservative Islam is a problem in most western societies. It's difficult to eradicate its influence but not impossible. There should be no Sharia (law), and women should have the rights and protections of civil liberties & the law. Compulsory public education is a must. Any terrorist activity or threats of violence (I don't care for what reason) must be grounds for immediate expulsion or other severe civil penalties.
Unfortunately, some of the Xtian churches are in favor of any religious law and their own "independence" from the secular (evil) state. Even in Britain the idiot leader of the Anglican church is OK with Saria, which allows Islamic "courts" to adjudicate! Female genital mutilation is widespread in the ghettos of Muslim communities in Europe, not to mention other mistreatment of Muslim women. This must stop.
Speaking of ghettos, the more separation there's the more difficult to integrate and, thus, difficult reduce the influnce of traditional/conservative religious practices. Young people and those born to immigrants should have a way to integrate and to find economic opportunity outside their own communities. If this happens--as it has in the US--you'd be amazed to see these new immigrants becoming more patriotic than the natives.
Btw, did you see the black kid who almost died getting into Greece a few years ago, now being the highest scorer in the university exams?
The modern state was built on notions of citizenship and nationalism, and thus created patriots! (forget the movies, before the modern state, there was no patriotism as peope's allegiance wasn't with the country but with their clan, tribe, and their religion--like Afghanistan is today). If you have a stake/interest in the country, they you are a patriot citizen. So, the task is to make the new immigrants have a stake in their newly-adopted ..country.
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I'm not sure how accurate polling is in Greece, but several are showing the ND-Syriza gap gone, and in a couple, ND is ahead by a whisker. This may reveal a trend, which in politics is very important. If the debates don't change this momentum, then you'll be surprised by the outcome of this election.
Another thing I'm looking at is the % that answers the question, which party do you think will win (regardless of how you'll vote). It used to be Syriza by a big number, but now this is almost gone. Again, this is an important indicator. Of course there are many "undecideds"..... But, they don't break for one party usually, so don't put them in your favorite column yet. Actually most of them follow the trend/momentum.
By the way, it's strange the polling is forbidden in the last days before an election. Weird "logic" if there's such....
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It's sad, in my opinion, that there aren't good alternatives right now. Tsipras lied, proved to be incompetent and unprepared. The old guard (ND, PASOK, traditional left) are all worn out and with no credibility. The other splinter parties are opportunistic with no real chance to push for anything. This clown Kamenos of the "Anexartitoi Ellines" was against the "mnemonio" but once he was asked to be part of Tsipras' gov he changed his tune.
There are no good choices for Greece right now, because it dug a big hole for itself. Everyone is responsible, govs and people alike. It has a political culture of the early last century.
I wouldn't know whom to vote for right now.
What do you want to happen? I mean given the realities of the situation.... What can the next government do?
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Brugge put in an embarrasing performance today. PAO would have given Man U a better test.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Thank you! I need that! I've been steaming this evening and I needed to laugh.
PS>I wish PAO had lost to Man U 0-5 tonight. Why? Because this would be more respectable than 2-2 and out.... Also, this would mean that PAO would have gotten good $$$$ for playing a famous team like Man U, AND, and, PAO would be going to Europa!!
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I don't know if this team can win the league. This defeat can be much worse than not going into the Europa. So, let's say by a miracle they win the domestic title. They'll still have to qualify to go to the CL next year. For the last 2 years, they drew very, very favorably. I mean what do you expect? Gabala? OK, they got a nobody of a team. Couldn't frikin pass that one either. The same with the national team, very favorable group, but if you lose to Faroe Islands twice you're not a serious team.
Second, if your plan is to play in Europe you bring players that can help you immediately, to qualify for euro play!!! Whatever they spent for Essien (who I said may be here to retire) they could have gotten back and more by advancing into Europa if not play at least another 2 games (as Brugge did against Man U). Even if Essien is good or whomever they aren't really interested in the crappy Greek league if there's no hope for euro play. Unless of course they come to cruise to retirement. Frankly, I don't care to see Essien doing fantastic tricks against Levadiakos or Platanias.
Oly has gotten tens of millions of $$ by automatically qualifying for the CL all these years, plus they have an owner who has more $ than all the rest of the league. It's easier to attract worthy players who play well in europe matches while they struggle to maintain their interest when they play in crappy league on even crappier fields.
So, for years PAO has been bringing in players who don't really give a s%$#! nor do they know the history of the club. And, it'll get harder to attract quality players.
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Thanks Reaper for the stat sheet. We were outclassed by a smaller team.
I also agree with Val about Dabizas, etc.
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Alafouzos isn't a soccer guy. His responsibility is to pick the coach and good advisers.
Unfortunately there's noone else besides Alafouzos to guide the club. Anastasiou should resign. He did a great job rescuing the team from the bottom, but it's obvious he's reached his upper limit. Bad planning too. Spend money for what? It's the euro play that brings you recognition, points, and money. For the domestic league they only needed a couple more players (could have gotten them from other Greek teams), and a better approach to not wasting points against lesser teams.
Maybe we should realize that the ceiling for this team is the domestic cup... :( (maybe)
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One of our worst Euro nights, considering the opposition.
Now back to the chicken coop fighting with other cocks for chicken s%$#!.
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PAO has become a very small team.
At least they should get players that can string 3-4 passes together.
I'd sell everyone except Berg and Steele
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No matter what happens, this is disgusting. It's unfair to the people/fans to see this kind of display. If we get lucky and sore one more, there's got to be some serious thinking about this team.
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Ridiculous, simply ridiculous.
Kabala missed an easy one.
This PAO would be lucky to content for the title until xmas... Oh, sorry, I forgot, we got Essien to help us content until at least next Feb. :/
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Sure, this is where the money is....
plus not winning points in Europe, PAO will be one of the worst/weaker teams
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None of the new players has helped......... so did we get them for the domestic league only? :/
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We have too many players that have no basic knowledge of handling the ball. They can be powerful and in good condition (like Karelis) but they are not smart nor can own the ball. :(
s%$#!. they scored.....
We are really bad not to by up by 3 already against this team....
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We have too many players that have no basic knowledge of handling the ball. They can be powerful and in good condition (like Karelis) but they are not smart nor can own the ball. :(
I think we can scrape by this Karbala crappy side... but it shows how ..not good we are.
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It seems that Tsipras miscalculated with Varoufakis, who was an "expert" of game/risk theory and wanted to push the Grexit card much more seriously than Tsipras wanted. Tsipras recently said he should have had Euclid as finance minister from the beginning.
True Tsipras had a bad hand, and most poker players lose such. But, he was unprepared, he gambled badly and he demanded to be at the poker table by forcing the country into elections. "Would Samaras have done better?" Probably, not because he somehow is more skillful, but because of the terms of the deal were slightly better, plus--let's not forget this---precious time wouldn't have been wasted. Did that matter? Well, just the damage from capital controls, losing economic productivity and income, and billions of euros left the country, was a price Greece couldn't afford to pay, but it did because of Tsipras's tactics.
However, In order to better understand a situation, we have to examine it from different perspectives, not only what Greece wants/needs/deserves/thinks.
How did the euros see this conflict? I've written lots here on this, so I won't repeat myself. But, I think Greece would have reacted like the euros (even worse) if this issue were about Fyrom, Albania, or Turkey. ;) (Am I wrong?)
Whatever view you have of the EU many Europeans see Greece as the petulent, irresponsible, lazy member who has lied and cheated into the club. Justified view?...What do you think? ...Oh, I know, the poor Greeks who everybody is jealous of and wants to destroy for centuries..... (whatever).
You're probably right that Tsipras didn't expect this harsh treatment.... which makes him more amateurish in my view. Look what happens in this forum as an example. The moment personal insults are thrown, no rational conversation can take place. So, if you call your negotiating partners (at the table you chose to go to) "thieves", "gang members" "nazzis", etc, etc... What do you think they'll do when you have a weak hand and in essense you're begging for a good deal??!!!
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it seems that new elections are coming very soon. It was obvious that Tsipras couldn't govern when his coalition is divided and legislation was approved by a majority not by his own party/coalition but by/with others.
Tsipras was not ready for PM, nor did he calculate correctly. He got a worse deal than if the previous gov were in place. He forced the country into elections while he didn't have to.... because these tough measures would have been taken by Samaras, so Tsipras could have come in with the claim, "we'll try to do the best we can but the previous gov has tied our hands"..... so, he could have proceeded with getting rid of the old guard, the corruption, etc. Of course, this assumes that Syriza is for that....
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Greek football has been relegated to a lower division and will probably sink further. The owners and the idiots who were in charge killed it. Here are some additional factors that don't bode well for Greek football.
- the money, talent gap between the big and lesser euro clubs is getting wider; only a handful of teams are true competitors for trophies; money flows to successful teams, because it's hard to invest in a mediocre/bad club in a shitty domestic league
- the Greek league collectively didn't realize that the generations born after 1990s have many more opportunities to spend their time & money; in the past, almost every boy had an interest in footbal, but not anymore; so they've lost millions of fans. Fewer interested people, especially in a small county, the sport suffers.
- the low attendance is partly to the bad visuals: crappy fields, bad officiating, and play; the other is the violence. I wouldn't take my little kids to a soccer game in Greece (for most games), because it's not safe; many people are disgusted by what has been going on. Sports in advanced countries are for some crazy fans who have no life but live to be a fan of a team (minority), but for the most part (majority) sports are for entertainment, often for all ages. When the latter withdraw the remaining pool is more toxic because the hooligans seem to treat this as their domain.
- corruption. If you believe (as it is) the game is fixed or unfair it chews down your interest and participation (and your spending)
- the general situation with the Greek economy drastically reduces the flow of money into soccer there.
Do you think any of these conditions will change any time soon?
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But, let me ask you. From someone who likes watching football/soccer, which is more entertaining? MLS or Greek league? I don't follow MLS regularly, since I don't have a favorite team, but I've seen many games on tv and in the stadium, so I can compare them to the Greek games..... Well, aside from having an interest in the outcome of my chosen club (PAO), most of the Greek games are truly unwatchable.
Think that a couple decades ago, soccer was not even mentioned during local sports news, the US national team was bad, etc. Now, I do watch the national teams (men, women) and it's really entertaining. Even though I supported (still do) the Greek national team, most of the games I've seen (even in the glory days) were pretty bad.
The same it can be said when PAO won the title in 2008 under Schum. They played some 5-6 great games, but the rest were horrible. They couldn't string 3 passes together. It was luck and some brilliant moments by individual players (like Olizadebe) that scored pivotal goals at crucial moments.
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I agree with you, they should scrap the playoffs. Even though PAO has benefitted from this in the past. This is not basketball. Actually it has harmed the Greek teams, because apparently they are not 100% ready when they play euro teams for all sorts of qualifications.
All the big teams expect preferential treatment, but it was Oly that managed to establish dominance behind the scenes--a thing I'll never forgive Tzigger for. He was a very rich but totally incompetent leader of a team.
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I have and will be deleting offending posts with no warnings. Dialogue implies civility, otherwise it's an idiot's screaming match--the kind that we don't want here. I'm all for freedom of expression, but there is a way of doing. Because some don't really understand what this means, let me put it in simple terms:
- does my post contribute to making this forum a pleasant place to hang out? [pleasant for the community, not for the provocateur]
- is it appropriate for the topic and the place?
- does it respect the other members? we don't have to agree, but we can respectfully disagree.
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Illegal Immigration In Greece (and In Europe)
in Let's talk about this
Posted
If you're saying that the thread is/gets smarter because of personal attacks, or incendiary comments, then you're confusing being passionate about something and keeping it civil--as this forum's rules stipulate. We're trying to keep this a nice place to have a conversation not a place for a bar fight..... which is eventually what happens if left unchecked. Oh, yeah, having "passionate opinions" doesn't give anyone the right to destroy. Live your uncontrolled passions at the door, gentlemen.
This goes for all: Yes, it's everyone's right to think and say whatever they want... in the appropriate time and place though. If anyone feels so passionate that want to destroy a place, well, this is ain't the place to do it. Curse, fight, destroy, and stink up your own house or the houses of people who may allow you into their houses. Not here!
In simple terms, the answer to these questions is "yes":
Next steps, besides the warnings, include not being able to post until mods approve your posts, and banning the offending member.