athinaios
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Posts posted by athinaios
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From my personal experience (any similarities to actual situations are purely coinsidental):
So, I borrow money to party, not work, buy favors, etc. Since I just joined a buddies club, they gave me free money to get up to the speed and train myself to be a decent club member. Of course, I'm smart, so I don't need that, and so I burned that money. Later, I asked for a loan. They happily gave me one at extremely low rate. I'm thinking, pfff, let me party on a bit longer and, you know, like a capable Greek who doesn't need to follow the regimen of other inferior people, I'll cram for the ..exam the night before.....
Then, the motherF***ers, said I was behaving inappropriately while a club member. I said I'm HELLENE.... when "we" were building a great civilization they're living in caves! How dare they insult me like that??!!!.
Then, the double-motherF***ers said if you want more loans the rate will be 7%!!!! What?!!!!!!!!!! This is usery, highway robbery, it's like Hitler invading again! Unacceptable.
Now, the triple (troika) motheF***ers are saying no more money unless I agree that I'm a little child and must be told what to eat, when & how to work, exercise, and go to the bathroom. No more games they say! I say F*** them! Friends, let's all get together and tell them to go F*** themselves. We are proud, independent, even glorious!
Life goes on, I don't need this club to have a great life. I'm sure there are other clubs I can join..... They'd love to have me, because we all behave the same~!
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What worries me is that nearly 50% of the voters intend to vote "yes".
This one is a no-brainer, folks!
You are intending to accept the continuation of a program that was doomed to failure from the word "go".
You are intending to accept the sell-off of your country to foreigners.
You are intending to contradict the IMF which says Greece cannot continue on this present course.
You are intending to kowtow before the Scheubeles and Dijsebloems of the EU whose anti-Greek sentiments are well-known.
You are intending to sacrifice your long-term interests for the (very) short-term.
You are intending to sacrifice the future of your children.
You are intending to sell out your country.
I apologize if I'm being too harsh, but I see such statements are generic and not very meaningful other than cheap political slogans, much like Tsipras was saying yesterday addressing the crowd. Proud Hellenes, solidarity, national unity, against the bloodsucking conspirators, ..show the Europeans what Greece is made of, etc, etc. What the hell is a prime minister in an extremely serious situation trying to do? Excite the mob to storm the Bastille?
These remarks are OK in a "gipedo" where we shout slogans and being silly, but in serious politics they help perpetuate bad politics.
Do or do you not need Europe?
Do you or do you not need bailout money?
As to some of those slogans:
- The country has already been sold, not literally, but very close to that, because when you are begging you've lost national independence
- the future of "your children" was undermined by all Greek governments in the last 50 years, for perpetuating a corrupt state, including higher education.
- Yes, "show them" what Greeks are made of!.... I think the Europeans have views on this and the current Athens rhetoric doesn't change their opinion. Does anyone think it does?
- Contradict the IMF.... while at it, contradict all those who are saying your economic policies since WW2 have led you to this disaster.
Look, I know you care, like all our friends here, and everyone supports Greece. We also all want Greece to cure its ills and do great. After all, I think all of us here have relatives or friends in Greece, but above all we understand the human toll in this horrible situation.
But, we disagree about the remedy. I'm not sure if we agree on the causes of this disease. This is utterly important becuase you have to diagnose the causes accurately before prescribing a remedy.
:la:
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Isn't true that none of you, myself included, knows what this referendum is about? We're all guessing, even if they're reasonable guesses.
So, all is a speculation. I'm afraid that those who are in favor of a "no" vote will be disappointed. Why, because your guesses are not probably what Tsipras will do!...
A referendum isn't supposed to be so vague nor what would happen after it takes place. The previous one in Greece in the mid 1970s, it was about yes-or-no regarding monarchy. Everybody understood the question and the result left no doubt about the next day!
Today, Tsipras spoke to his supporters in Athens. Do you think this statement actually makes things clear?... Is this what a referendum is for? (Goodnight)
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Thank you Lazarus for the plug.
As for the referendum, it's really a bad one. First, it's not clear what the question is! There's no offer on the table right now!! Second, it will provide no clear verdict, unnecessarily dividing the people. What will Tsipras do if the majority votes "yes"?... Resign, call new elections? This is not good as more time will be lost. Greece is fast running out of money.
There are several voices within the Greek government that have said all sorts of things. That a deal may be possible even after a "no" vote; Tsipras said a "no" vote doesn't mean that Greece will leave the euro! Some others have said that whatever the offered deal was back in February, it would be accepted today after the Greek govenment was caught by surprise that the troika didn't accept Greek demands.
To show you that all is a speculation, most of you are guessing what will happen after the referendum, especially if there's a "no" majority. A referendum isn't supposed to be so vague nor what would happen after it takes place. The previous one it was about yes-or-no regarding monarchy. Everybody understood the question and the result left no doubt about the next day!
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Update: I just read this, and if I understand Greek correctly, such statements are really non-sensical. I know many politicians talk like that, but this is the talk of a used car salesman or childish at best.... If I were a negotiating partner with Mr. Tsipras expecting to talk seriously about the terms of the loans he's asking from me, I don't think I'd want to talk to him again!
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Jim Adams post's message is similar to what I asked here earlier. How would you react if roles were reversed. Perhaps, Fyrom or Turkey were in Greece's position and behaved likewise....
Yesterday, the young and progressive Italian PM said that (loose translation) he didn't take austerity measures on Italian pensioners, etc, so Greeks can maintain their lifestyle and corrupt system! Similar statements have been made by several other Eurozone leaders, especially of smaller countries, Ireland, Finland, etc.
The point is that some time ago there were European leaders who had voiced support for Greece, but nowadays there's none. Why?.... In other words, the Greek government has no support. Even from countries that are in financial trouble may face tough conditions from lenders, so it would be to their interest to argue for lighter conditions on the Greek debt. But they aren't supporting Greece any longer...
PS> No country (developed country), especially the financially troubled ones in Eurozone, will be treated like Greece. Why? Because no other country has been so unreliable. The Greek case is strict supervision of a unruly child, where even small details of how to behave from now on are decided by others. Hooray for national independence!
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Corrupt or not, (much like FIFA), what choice do you really have in the absence of an alternative?
There's good money in playing euro games.
What makes it a bs is that Oly managed to rule the domestic league, thus capturing titles and then going directly to the CL group stages where many millions of $$ are given to the clubs. Then they use this money to buy players. Oly's budget is more than the rest of the league's teams combined!
Even in corrupt Italy, Juve was relegated to second division as punishment.
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To be truly left or right, in real terms means to take the country in a different directions, say a military junta (fascism) or abolish liberal democracy and implement communism.
Despite their rhetoric, all parties that have governed Greece since WW2, have had very similar politics.
As to analyze the political-cultural makeup of Greece would require a long discussion (perhaps another topic). The word "left" (as you seem to use it) is almost generic. But, if we are to use the definition as the left expresses and governs in Europe then you'll see the Greek left is much different.
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Well I would say in actions and ideology Syriza is left wing - as were PASOK before them. Forget people dying in hospital because of no medicine while the staff at ERT are rehired. Syriza is a utopian party that questions the actual existence of capitalist systems. I don't think Greeks were necessarily wrong to vote them in - when in debt, nothing annoys the banks more than having to deal with South American style leftists. The problem with Greece is that as long as the schools and universities are marxist, there is little hope for the future.
I don't think there are Marxists in Greece (no more than 5%). Most don't understand marxism and certainly don't practice it, nor want it. I mean, come on, you can't be a marxist and also religious! Communism is not new. Plato promoted it in his utopian state. The early xtian church was communist too.
Well I would say in actions and ideology Syriza is left wing - as were PASOK before them. Forget people dying in hospital because of no medicine while the staff at ERT are rehired. Syriza is a utopian party that questions the actual existence of capitalist systems. I don't think Greeks were necessarily wrong to vote them in - when in debt, nothing annoys the banks more than having to deal with South American style leftists. The problem with Greece is that as long as the schools and universities are marxist, there is little hope for the future.
ND, PASOK, SYRIZA have similar policies, using the state mechanism for favors and hiring their own people.
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As for the bloodsucking creditors, if you don't go begging (through your own democratically elected governmet that tells you, and you believe it, that there's money to party while not being productive, etc), then you don't have to be treated in this (currently) humiliating way, like an irresponsible child.
Where is Greece's national independence when its creditors tell Greece how to eat, sleep, and go to the bathroom? This is like a failed stated, a third world country that you have foreigners being in charge of domestic affairs!!! And, this is exactly the situation in Greece right now.
Decades of borrowing and wasting money bankrupted Greece.
Again about the bloodsuckers of the "troika".... They agreed to lend Greece new money in 2010, 2012, with strict conditions. Now before they lend more money they want to squeeze blood. But, if Greece had another good alternative it wouldn't become like a third world country whereas foreigners would tell it what to do.
Another hard truth? If you don't like the troika, then go to the international market (perhaps Russia?) to get financing. Well, Greece tried this a couple years ago, only to find out that the interest rates were 35-40%!! Why, because Greece is an extremely risky bet. So the troika lend Greece at rates up to 7%, but demanding the keys to the car and other life style choices.
These are the facts. You can yell "national independence", against the creditors, this and that, but slogans don't make concrete policies that will get Greece out of this mess.
PS> As I've said several times in my posts here, I'm not in favor of the economic policies of austerity when a country is in a slump. But, no matter what you do, systemic changes must happen so you don't return to the same mess.
As I ..offered to pay the whole Greek debt off. But I asked, who can bet with me that if the debt disappeared today, right now, that Greece wouldn't be in similar mess a few years from now....
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So you don't see SYRIZA as a leftist party?
In rhetoric (or official ideology), perhaps, but in reality from ND-Pasok-Syriza, (older center parties, etc), have all governed the same. All have used the state mechanism to promote same goals & policies, tilted to their own voters. It's even more obvious when you examine the municipalities, whereas almost every party has governed, from extreme right to extrem left.
A major difference between right and left parties (in the western world) is how the see the role of government--how much intervention and to what end. In Greece there hasn't been such distinction in reality. You can call it ERT or NERIT, it's all the same! :artist:
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The Greek civil war was indeed about the direction of the country. But, let me tell you, since then there's no left and right in Greece, excluding the fringe parties of the KKE and the fascists, which are marginal and won't govern. All the other parties behave the same way with small variations. All use the state mechanism for patronizing. Their policies are in essence the same. Now, the interesting question is why....
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What???!!!! :xxx:
The guy was a great player, and I hope he still is, but I've seen too many like him coming to Greece and are really damaged so they don't contribute while they cost too much.
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I think we agree that the debt has to be reduced (haircut) if Greece has a chance of economic growth. However, as I often say, let me pay off the entire Greek debt. Poof. It's gone. Now, how many of you think that without any meaningful reforms, Greece will accumulate another huge debt..... This is the crux of the matter.
In my estimate, the corruption is so deep that only an outside force could make Greece reform its political & economic system. We all agree that governments have been irresponsible and corrupt. But how about the people? Almost everyone has milked the system one way or another. OK, I also agree, if a system is so corrupt, it's a total mess you can't escape it...
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In the video clip above, Stephen Haseler (the third guest) makes the most sense to me. Europe has to write off about $50 billion of Greek debt right away--more if Greece behaves-- so the Greek economy has a chance to repay past lenders and grow at the same time. This is provided they want to keep Greece in the eurozone.
Secondly, the stupid austerity (indeed, conservative) economic policies by those currently in charge of the European finances, and IMF, must stop. In order to get out of a slump austerity isn't the way. But, the way out has to be prudent, that is economic policies that create jobs and commercial activities, and other measures that help stability in society. A smart rescue plan, in my opinion, would be based on: "haircut" of debt; demands from meaningful state reforms in Greece; repayment tied to economic growth (both parties would have an interest in growing the Greek economy, and the more growth the more repayments of debt).
My sense is that the lenders want to punish Greece which has cheated, lied, and wasted tons of borrowed money in the past. Of course, there's no trust in Greek governments. Some of the suggestions of Greece were, give us money now and at some point in the future we'll fix the ills of our system. The reply is, no. There's no mutual trust.
Sometimes it helps to examine an issue from someone else's point of view. Let's say it was Turkey (or Fyrom) in Greece's position, and Greece was like Iceland or Holland, etc. What do you think Greeks would be saying today regarding Turkey's mismanagement?....
PS. Yes, the Euros don't like SYRIZA. They say, look, your Greek governments signed loans, under rather great terms, and now Syriza/Chipras get elected basically saying they won't recognize the country's obligations. If you weren't Greek, could you be agreeing?
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Although it's nice to bring such players to Greece, that brings excitement to the fans, I'm old enough to know that these moves are hit-or-miss. Most of these transfers turned bad.
Don't get me wrong, I'm excited about the club trying to raise the level and be more competitive. Yet, I want to see how big name players apply themselves and what contributions bring to the team, instead of cashing in their fame and collect $$ while they're semi-retired.
Now, especially given the condition of the Greek economy, the horrible state of the league, the lesser status of Greek teams in Europe (and their chances of success there), it raises a question as to why a great player might want to come to a Greek club. Gilberto, Rivaldo, and a few others at the end of their careers, when they couldn't play for other big euro clubs came and did great. Others, like Sisse and Berg come because they had been on a slump and want to get a chance to climb out. They also do well. But, most of the big names have been failures.
Hoping for the better outcome.... Good luck to Essien.
By the way, is that the new PAO jersey by Puma. I want one! It's different and interesting!
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My goodness, this is utterly ridiculous. Not only it's too technical for most people to understand, but it's not clear of what the voters are asked.
It shows amateurs--and that's the Greek government--playing with fire in my opinion. Wow. Rather irresponsible too to do it at this point. Also, since there are ongoing negotiations (in the last couple days, the US and Europe said there are other options available) and possible developments, plus other factors (ie. missing the payment to the IMF tomorrow and the implications of it), this is a terrible referendum. It'll backfire on the government, and because this move was without good planning, it's reckless... Already the law of unintended consequences is playing out.... tsk.
PM Chipras seems unwilling to do what he was elected (and campaigned on) to do, that is negotiate better terms or declare bankruptcy and leave the euro and the European union.
By the way, elections were the referendum 5 months ago. What's happening today, should have happened shortly after those elections (I'm not talking about the referendum), instead of squandering 5 months of "negotiations."
On the other hand, the "troika" may have asked for some reasonable measures (reforming Greek law, taxes, transparency, etc), but its stupid severe austerity policies have made things much worse. They share a big part of this mess today.
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This is a good article from The New York Times:
The State of the Case Against FIFA
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The greatly devalued drachma will make Greek products much more competitive (cheaper), but this assumes Greece will have lots to export. However anything it'll import will be extremely expensive, which includes all everyday items Greeks are accustomed to having. Same with imported food stuffs. If the country produces enough food stuffs to feed itself, no problem. If...
Now, they'd have to pay for imports with hard currency, because no one would accept a worthless currency for payment outside the country. Where do you get it? From exports and from tourism. Red Sherriff makes great points (above) about the tourist economy. Be careful what you wish for. There are many poor countries whose tourism industry is foreign-based. In other words, foreign investors come in and handle most of it. Yes, they employ locals thus creating jobs. Good. But, there are many poor countries who have great tourist destinations, some luxurious places for tourists to stay. Yet, why do you think the countries remain poor?....
What makes a country or a person poor? It's not a simple answer. It depends on the quality of life. And, in western societies it's largely maintaining/enhancing the welfare state--the services and the social safety net, education, health care, etc. Poor countries can't provide this safety net, which on the other hand is expected/demanded in western countries. Also, economic opportunity should be available to everyone not the investors; this doesn't mean the government has to employ everyone, but surely doesn't mean being employed in low-skill jobs at starvation wages.
For all the rhetoric from Syriza and others about national independence, what became clear to them is that if Greece left the euro, there were NO good options, because there are systemic problems in Greece that would basically waste the one-time fix (going back to the drachma) for the reasons I just explained. Since NO political party is willing to do the tough decisions to correct the systemic problems, they actually prefer that those tough measures are dictated by the "troika."
What the "memorandum" means is, you want our money, here are the conditions. You don't have to take this money, by the way. But, if you declare bankruptcy, don't come to us for help either.
...
PS. I'm not suggesting that the troika's package deal is ideal or even correct.
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It's disgusting with these "international organizations" who have been corrupt to the bone. Same with the Olympic Committee, etc. I'm happy that the US feds are doing something about it. Blatter, seems really sleazy to me, but the corruption is so deep that he'll be re-elected this Friday.
I hope that UEFA takes a stand. The next World Cup was bought with bribes by a oil-rich country that has no history of football nor an infrastructure. UEFA members don't like that they have to make major changes in their leagues to field national teams to participate.
I'm old enough to remember the talk about corruption and the bribes needed to secure the 1996 Olympic games, which Greece lost to Atlanta.
All these big organizations are not really accountable to anyone. They're international mafia organizations.
I hope they clean FIFA, who, by the way, made $1 billion while Brazil lost money after hosting the world cup last year.
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Yes, we knew that Berg can win us a game, but Ninis' performance was impressive. I hope he's finding his groove.
I still have a nagging question: Why PAO can win the domestic games against the better teams (more points than anyone in the top finishers) and still lose the title?
Anyway, it's nice to see that in the playoffs, PAO is always the team that wins it. (am I wrong?)
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Good points on both sides of the argument. However, let's assume Greece leaves the euro, and without discussing the effects of this action, this still is going to be one-time fix. Therefore, if there are systemic problems, soon the same problems will appear again.
In other words, if I had a magic wand and waived off all of Greece's debt (not a single euro owned to lenders) tomorrow, I ask you, what do you think would happen in a couple years? Let's be honest...
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Hello guys
Welcome.
One of my favorite teams plays in your city :tup:
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Great game, 3 points. In the next 5 games, 3 are at Leoforos, so things got started fine for PAO.
But, the team got lucky, because Tripoli had several good chances in the first half and had they scored first, things could have been different.
If any good offer comes, PAO will sell everyone other than Berg right now. The club still owes big money to past players, and there hasn't been an influx of money as far as I know. Gavroi spend more than the rest of the league combined. Of course, they've been getting the CL money, so I pays for them to be perpetual title holders in Greece. By the way, I blame Tzigger for allowing this to happen. He was the worst club owner by far in our history.
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Oly is one of top spending teams in Europe! Actually there was an article recently that showed how the euro titles usually go to the top 1-3 spenders!! There are exceptions, but the rule stands. It's the same in soccer too.
The Greek Economy Thread
in Let's talk about this
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