[Next Day for Greece]

Here's the new memorandum.

• in English
• in Greek

And, for frequent updates, you can check The Guardian.

 

 

Since we're talking about the next, do you find anything good in these required/imposed reforms?

 

One thing is obvious, that when others dictate how to run your own country, and you accept it, it means that serious national independence has been lost. So, please enough of the rhetoric like, "we didn't sell the country", "kept our head high", etc.

 

Another sure thing: Tsipras will have a hard time governing (IF he makes it), because he campaigned against what he has agreed to today. Syriza may unravel. It'll be, let's say extremely unusual, to have legislation passed with other parties' votes while the majority of Syriza deputies vote against it. That can't last long. Tsipras will have to reshuffle his government and fire Lafazanis (energy minister who had been pushing the ..Russia solution) and Konstantopoulou (parliament president). Both have been loud voices against Tsipras's managing the euro talks and any possible deal under current terms.

 

The next day already looks very bad.....

[Next Day for Greece]

Tourism crashed this year because of all this s%$#! recently, record number of cancellations in many areas. It was projected to be up 15% from last year but it's gonna be way down when it's all said and done.

Greece used to have twice the tourism of Turkey, now it's the reverse. It's not only the cheaper currency but also the level of service! The Turkish tourist places along the Aegean are rated higher in satisfaction surveys than their Greek counterparts. 

 

Also, political and economic instability are very harmful to tourism. Egypt can tell you this much. Let's say I have 2 weeks vacation; sure I'm looking for a bargain, but my over all experience matters. I want/demand service. I don't want strikes to prevent me from getting to/fro my destination! You say next year will be better for tourism in Greece? Not if there the austerity and tough measures continue, because they'll produce more strikes and uncertainty.

 

Btw, when I hear you can only take $50/day out of ATMs, but, hey, don't worry, tourists have no problems, I'd stay away from that country if I were a tourist, especially the ones that have money to spend and aren't like the sleeping bag travellers who only have $50 shoved into their socks and don't need ATMs!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

One source that has very frequent updates on the situation is this: http://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2015/jul/12/greek-debt-crisis-eu-leaders-meeting-cancelled-no-deal-live

[Next Day for Greece]

I'm seriously worried Tsipras is going to cave in to all of the EU's demands.

He has already, but now it's not up to him. There are strong (influencial) voices within the EZ to kick Greece out, because they don't trust Greece would do any reforms and thus they don't want to send any more money to GR. When you're bankrupt it's hard to play "

[Next Day for Greece]

I also want to mention that all those Euro leaders who deal/negotiate with Greece have to answer to their own political parties and ultimately to their citizens. Public opinion in Europe (EZ) now is not favorable to Greece. Most measures to help Greece will have to pass through other countries' parliaments.

 

When I asked how would many of you react if Turkey or Fyrom were in Greece's position and you were on the other side of the EZ, I forgot to add Albania....   ;)

[Next Day for Greece]

I tend to agree with gyros about the English which is a first for me agreeing with him.

The English are duplicitous in their dealings with Greece as history has shown. Look at their obstinate position they have taken with the Parthenon Marbles and what Cameron has said about us as a people.

I don't trust them.

 

Guys, be realistic. What does it mean a country likes you or doesn't???!!

 

One aspect is that the people of that country have a long-held animosity toward another people. Is is true in case of England, Finland, even Germany?

The other one is the governments of those countries. In that case, there are no friends, just national insterests. OK, there are cases a country may help another on humanitarian grounds, but even this is a rare exception if the helper has nothing to profit from such action; especially when the cost to the helper is considerable.

 

And, to put this whole issue into another perspective, only family helps a member who's a screw up... ;) [how are a family member? either born or adopted]

[Next Day for Greece]

It was said during the politicos meeting that Greece went to play the "

[Next Day for Greece]

Have you guys looked at the proposed Syriza legislation? 

 

This is the point I'm trying to raise here (among others), that Greece needs reforms. Right? OK, we agree, but it's one thing to say yes to reforms and another to be specific. I think that some of the reforms are absolutely needed. Which ones you like and which don't.

 

Another interesting observation is that most of the "good reforms" Greece had to implement came from abroad, some were demanded (like some of these new measures) by outsiders. Don't you think this says something about the political and social culture of the country?

[Next Day for Greece]

The referendum was an exercise in ________________(at the cost of $25-30 million).

 

Tsipras lost in his gamble against the troika while tetering the country at the edge of collapse. So, what's next? What are those things you'd like to see? Which direction should the country trake?

 

 

[The Greek Economy Thread]

Actually I feel sad, because this is a worse deal than what it could have been achieved previously, while the Greek economy has shrunk in the meantime, not to mention the damage and angst of the last couple weeks.  Tsipras did not play this hand well. OK, he had a bad hand to begin with (back in Feb) but he failed to realize that a bad hand usually means you lose. I'm happy though that the worst was avoided. The worst being a total collapse of the economy and Greece becoming a basket case needing humanitarian aid to survive.

 

I don't know what some people here and in Greece are seeing this as a victory....that he stood up to the troika, Germany, and kept Greece proud. The only "victory" is that Greece isn't kicked out of the EZ.

 

For the record, if Greece's offer for reforms is accepted, it'll get about $80 billion, including emergency funds for the banks to open.

 

As I read the proposed Greek offer, I wonder why most of those sensible measures weren't done before...... It's something Greece needed regardless of debt obligations or troika or mnemonio.....

 

But, in true historical fashion, since 1821, any positive change, it has come or imposed from abroad!

[The Greek Economy Thread]

The referendum was ridiculous. Everybody interpreted it anyway they wanted it. What kind of bs is that? It was a waste of precioius time. Remorse or what, it's not only the Greek governments at fault. You know, public sentiment does play an important role. Responsible citizenship is necessary. OK, what would you do? (people ask me). Well, for starters I wouldn't fall for the empty rhetoric (examples of which we've seen here in this forum*), I wouldn't go and bleet like sheep in meaningless demonstrations and party gatherings. I would demand they talk to me like a responsible adult, and be specific about plans for reforms. I'd vote for the candidates that dared to speak the truth, even it was unpleasant. (no b.s. "there's money for all")

 

I wouldn't watch crappy media nor buy newspaper rags. I'd demand meritocracy not patronage. And, I would behave like a good person with civility, respecting my fellow citizens, care for the environment (not polute, clean after myself, not throw garbage everywhere), wouldn't park my car/bike on the sidewalk, not make unnecessary noise, not cut in line, show up for work on time and be productive (and if I worked at a public office, I'd treat the ..public with respect), etc, etc....

 

 

* we defend Greece; we're proud; we don't sell the country; unity; the lenders are terrorists; etc.  Oh, and so many recipes for how Greece can get out of this mess through ..magical thinking~!

 

___________________________________

 

D. Tusk (Prez Euro Council) and JC Juncker (Prez Euro Commission) said Greece must submit detailed plan by Thu, so the top euro leaders can meet on Sat and decide by Sunday, which is the absolute last day for Greece. It's either in, with a bailout and a plan, or out (Grekexit). The Grekexit plans have been drawn already by European leadership.  "Detailed plan" means specifics, not rhetoric. It's crazy that the Greek gov has not done this already!!!!!  :tdown: :bangin:

And, it's even crazier that Tsipras has not submitted the specific reforms/legislation the country needs anyway. And, it's even craziest that the Euros are ready to give Greece breathing room (which includes emergency liquidity funds for Greek banks, so they can open) but Tsipras delivered a speech (and replied to Guy's speech in the video above) in Euro parliament without being specific. His only defense was that he released Lagard's corruption list. OK, good, but what the f@@@ man, you needed 5 months to do that?.... :xxx:

[The Greek Economy Thread]

Tsipras was not ready to be PM.  No experience and no real plans other than rhetoric. Amatuerish when he (the country) couldn't afford to. Syriza is a contradiction in itself, with many groups who disagree about fundamental policies--united in their quest for power, but once there..... :argue:

 

He should have started with reforms already, while negotiating with troika. This is the point of the video above. Tsipras could have a stronger hand, and a public relations advantage if he could say, look in my 5 months in office I've done more sensible reforms that dozens of governments before me!!  Great reforms that will make Greece more competive, with a bigger economy, closer to the standards of the EZ! So, help out here guys....

 

Instead he's been business as usual. Just yesterday they announced that more priests would be hired!  Oh, yeah.... Did you know that the state pays for priests' salaries? :xxx: 

[The Greek Economy Thread]

Super speech:

 

 

Well, I wrote his speech... (haha).

 

And, since I'm feeling generous again today, I'm prepared to pay off the entire Greek debt (yeah, I'm that rich :huh?: ).  But, I don't want my money to go to waste, as it most certainly will if Greece continues on the same path of the old ways.

 

So, let's say that Tsipras doesn't have to deal with those demanding lenders he's begging money from any longer. What prevented him from passing legislation to end the privileges, to open up the marketplace (destroy the "syntexnies"), eliminate corruption, bureaucracy, etc...?????!!!.

He could still have negotiated better terms, but why hasn't done the reforms the country needs regardless of the bailout.

 

It doesn't have to be an external demand (from lenders) that Greece does sensible reforms, yet, since the 1980s it hasn't. 

[The Greek Economy Thread]

Are you making the argument that Greece is an irresponsible child? Then why should anyone take it seriously?

 

So, since you do put it that way, it's no brainer why the Europeans & IMF say to Greece today: you can't be trusted. If you still want our money, you have to eat this, jump through that hoop, we come into your house and inspect every closet, drawer, and pocket. And, you have to be put on a leash so you don't go wandering. 

 

What??!!! You don't like these terms?  Then adieu, arrivederchi, hasta la vista, goodbye and good night.. You don't have to come to us for another bailout since not only you have been irresponsible but you lied, yes LIED, in your application, and you FORGED documents while we were dealing with you as an adult! 

 

We won't talk about the free money we gave you to become a proper member of our club in the 1980s....

 

<_<

 

 

PS> To harp on my previous question. So Fyrom and Turkey are telling you that it was your fault for lending them your money............ oyvey

[The Greek Economy Thread]

The least I could do is pack my bags and family up, and visit Greece spending my money, and giving much needed support.

I'll promote the idea to the rest of my family and see if we can have a reunion there....If we all did this....It will not take a long time for Greece to get up and going!!!

  :unsure: :1eye: :blink: [in red]

I know you care and you mean well, but this is the kind of magical thinking that when widespread--and it seems that it has infected many in the governing party--is actually harmful. It's harmful because instead of identifying the appropriate medicine, it relies on voodoo. Of course, before you cure the disease you have to correctly identify it first, which I'm not sure many (incl. the gov) do, or want to.

[The Greek Economy Thread]

 

Financial terrorism explained very thoroughly, specifically at 16:25

 

Interesting video with many good points. But, I'm amazed that the supporters of the Tsipras referendum, Tsipras, and national independence, etc, fail to see reality.  Equally amazing how people can interpret this video to suit their interests.

 

The reality is:

• Greeece has borrowed huge sums of money, mispent it, lied in its loan application and forged supporting documents; while succeeding Greek governments acted like, "hey, I didn't sign on to these agreements so I don't have to abide".... meanwhile you give me more money ... with the rate and conditions I WANT!! Otherwise, I call you Nazis, terrorists, etc.
• This whole 5 month gamble, since the elections, has cost Greece dearly. Lost productivity, lost time, smaller economy (smaller economy=less money coming in), loss of credibility and worsening of relationships between Greece and its European partners.
• This Syriza gov today would love to have the deal on the table 5 months ago. What savings or better terms they've been negotiating since have been LOST in reality due to the worsening/shrinking of the Greek economy!!
• Collapsing of the banking sector.  Where are those (including people here) who were riding high on nationalistic fervor that banks would open, Europe would kneel to the proud Greeks, etc?  In the last 5 months, billions of euros have been withdrawn from the banks by depositors, investments stopped, no lending for new business (worsening unemployment), and now some are saying Greece can print i.o.u.'s or drachmas or some magical gift certiicates Santa puts in your xmas stocking. :evil:   To those who believe in magical thinking, let me remind you that there are some fundamental you can't disregard, like the credibility of the banking system, the people's trust in the value of the currency, etc.

 

• All, including the loudest sloganeers, feel insecure. They have taken (or would if they could) all their euros out of the bank; there are not spending, making plans to spend, start new business, hire people, plant new crops, travel, etc. This is lethal for an economy. What irates me the most is the amateurish behavior and gambling by the current Greek government. It's the human cost that matters so gambling with other people's lives is criminal.

I asked many times here, how Greeks would be reacting if Fyrom or Turkey had been where Greece is today.... while Greece would be in, say, Finland's position.

[The Greek Economy Thread]

To all of those friends who've been agonizing over this serious issue, posting here, and creating a good environment for all of us to get things of our chest, I dedicate this song to you:

:D

 

[The Greek Economy Thread]

@Irlandos

 

Any medium of common exchange (money) has to be backed by something, nowadays is the trust of the users. [for example the US $] So, the value (what's worth) depends on what people think it's worth.  Your dollar in one place is worth more than in another place for exactly same product. (ie. coffee)

 

Now, I have a couple questions:

 

• what would the value of the drachma be as it floats with the dollar in Greece? Will there be an "exchange" rate? 
•  
• If it's 1-1 (or whatever it is), how long this would last? Having your own currency means that you devalue it against other hard currency; otherwise you lose the advantage of going back to drachmas.
•  
• what would you rather have in your pocket?  Once people have used a stronger currency, it's very difficult to go back to a weak one, because, again, it's the trust/faith of the people that determine value (there are other factors but primarily weak money is weak)

So, in reality either Greece gets a deal and an immediate influx of euros or leaves and prints drachmas. Floating a parallel currency may allow government to pay salaries but those i.o.u.'s (I owe you) can quickly become worthless.

[The Greek Economy Thread]

Again, I repeat, I do NOT think troika's economic policies are good; they are failed conservative models. Already, the IMF has admitted that Greek debt cannot be paid in its current size even by a healthy economy. You can't keep a patient sick while telling him to work harder. If you want Greece to be a good club member you do cure the disease, and eliminate the sources of the disease through structural/behavioral reforms. On this, there have been very good European-led demands part of any deal offered.  Greece has to realize that it cannot continue the economic policies and irresponsible behavior of the past.

[The Greek Economy Thread]

A few more observations:

• The problem with the "no" voters is that there's no majority of what this means really. Stay in the EZ or leave? How much austerity? And, what does any austerity mean? No more corruption? Retirement at 52? Jobs for everyone? ....
• Most people in all EZ countries would have voted against stifling austerity, high unemployment, loss of national independence, like Greeks did on Sunday. It's natural, but also:
• Big majorities in the EZ countries would vote "yes" for Greece to pay back its loans; therefore the rhetoric coming out of Greece about "unity", "we showed them how proud we are", etc are pointless.
• what Tsipras is doing today calling all political leaders trying to get a consensus about a ..deal should have been done months ago. This would have been a better show of solidarity if troika knew they had 95% of the political leadership of Greece united. This assumes that Syriza wanted to have a deal and not leave the EZ.
• Greece has no cash, so something must be done right away, either a deal or an exit.
• If a deal, even a more favorable one, will definitely include many tough measures of internal reforms. Should Syriza call another referendum, just to make sure that Greeks are OK with it?....

[The Greek Economy Thread]

I hope and pray for the good of my country that Tsipras and Varoufakis prove me wrong and get a better deal but I'm really not convinced they can... Time will tell, the next 48 hours are crucial, please prove me wrong Tsipras.

 

I agree,as I believe all of us here want the Greek government to succeed in getting a good (better) deal from the troika, and get some economic recovery out of this harsh austerity. However, we disagree as to how this is done or how well/badly Tsipras has handled the situation in the last 5 months.

 

Also, nationalistic stances and high-fallutin' rhetoric won't put euros in Greek banks. The banks can't open or if they do, there isn't enough cash in the vaults, so they'll accept deposits only.... ;)

 

I'm betting that all Greeks would want to have euros in their hands now instead in the bank because if Greece leaves the EZ, their deposits will be converted to drachmas, which of course will buy you squat of anything imported. Sure you can pay your barber in drachmas, but if you like having anything Greece doesn't produce, it's goodnight!

[The Greek Economy Thread]

although I can't be certain, I believe very strongly that the banks will re-open sometime this week, most likely Tuesday

 

if they do not, Merkel & cie will be lambasted by the intl community

:la: :artist:

 

If I understand the banking system a little, you need money to operate. No?!  All Greeks will rush to the banks to take all their money out, especially after this referendum.

 

So, where are they going to find this cash reserves? I'm talking euros..... unless they start printing drachmas!

[The Greek Economy Thread]

Hold on, so the referendum was to ..strengthen Tsipras hand?!! Hmm. 

 

Even Paul Krugman doesn't think Tsipras knows what he's doing. But, Krugman says democracy won, so what if there's a Grekexit and back to the drachma..... Sure. If that's what the majority of Greeks want.

 

 

In my estimate, the Greek government doesn't have much of bargaining power, unless it has decided to leave the eurozone. It's now the troika and other leaders (suprisingly, the US is playing a role pushing for a "haircut" and keeping Greece in the ez) who have to ask themselves whether they want Greece in or out, and what are they willing to pay for keeping Greece in.

[Greek Referendum - Vote Now.]

Come on people. Don't forget to cast your vote. After all, the Greeks invented democracy!!

 

Good for them. But, democracy wasn't for all, and democracy led to mob rule.  [remember?  ..come over here Socrates, drink this....]

 

PS> I'm not for aristocracy, monarchy, or dicatorship, but democracy needs responsible, engaged, informed citizens. That's all .... (big order, I know)

[The Greek Economy Thread]

But, that's the problem with this stupid referendum. A "no" vote does not mean what you say. Even Tsipras said a "no" doesn't necessarily mean leaving the eurozone. But, the question is what's next after the referendum?...

 

I can't believe that Tsipras wanted a referendum to show how Greece is independent, to show unity, and whatever else.... Sorry, but this is totall b.s. What makes it worse is that there's no offer on the table right now so, in theory, Greek voters could ..analyze it and determine if those conditions are good.  tsk

[The Greek Economy Thread]

@ Dimitri 13:

 

I've repeatedly said the troika recipe for economic recovery is faulty. But, elements for domestic reforms are very sound, and sadly it came to foreigners to demand how Greece organizes itself. It's humiliating.

 

Secondly, you have to agree that being irresponsible leads to losing national independence when you go begging. Blaiming, cursing, making enemies of those who demand an arm and a leg before they lend you again (since you've lost all credibility), isn't doing any good. After all, you go begging to them. Right?

 

Syriza proved amateurish in handling the negotiations, and not having serious plans to deal with the crisis after they brought down the previous government. Precious time was lost too.

 

Excuse me, but when I hear Tsipras uttering bullshit and cheap slogans I cringe. Honestly, I really wanted this guy to suceed and breathe a fresh air into Greek politics but he/they proved inadequate for the circumstances.