athinaios
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Posts posted by athinaios
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Oly has probably the highest budget among the top Euro teams. PAO is not a very strong team any longer. I'm afraid that we'll lose the domestic title this year. We need a better coach and a higher budget to compete at the top of euro league. We've struggled against small teams, and gavroi are getting stronger.
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The problem is not repatriating those Turks. They can buy them out. A few wealthy Greek Cypriots would spend this money if it meant unification. These people are being used as leverage. A possible solution would be a federated state, but not like in the past when the two communities were separated economically, and politically. The northern Turkish Cypriots will not accept any deal that marginalizes them.
Anyway, the biggest obstacle to reunification is Erdogan. He's a nationalist leader who has grandiose visions, like he's trying to emulate Putin. He is dangerous. I don't see him "giving up a piece of Turkey" as long as he's Turkey's leader. So, even if the Turkish-Cypriots would like a solution, he has to agree, and I don't see this happening now. The only chance would be if Europe was to offer a carrot to Turkey, though I don't see this happening either.
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Yeah? How much income does he have though?
That figure you cite may be houses, business holdings, etc. This wealth isn't necessarily liquefiable (turned into cash) on a whim. No businessman would sell assets & personal property to fund a club. Those who spend for their club have extra cash to burn. Rare species.
Greek football has been plagued by "people of ill-repute" (like Psomiades, Beos, etc) who actually took money from their clubs, good political influence, and bankrupted their clubs.
Loukas Barlos (funny, I don't know why I remember this) spend his fortune for his beloved AEK.
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For me, unless the take titles away and even do what they did in Italy (dropped teams to lower divisions), if there's proven corruption or fixed games, there will be no true justice.
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Energy independence is usually desired by most nations. In the US, fracking and traditional but more efficient oil usage has turned the US from a big importer to an exporter of oil. Greek govs would gladly exploit oil or natural gas if it means having serious income.
But, not all oil extraction costs the same. Saudis get it very cheaply (probably you dig a meter and oil pops out), but Russia spends some $80 per barrel produced.
What Greece should massively exploit is solar and wind energy as it has plenty of both.
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The sports venues reflect the society at large. Corruption, inefficiency, hooliganism, and a few bosses controlling everything.
What pains me is that they've been killing a football/soccer.
I hope there's catharsis.... and the return of true fans to the stands to watch good teams and whereas games are played on the field not behind closed doors.
Do you think Greece has too many soccer clubs? I mean, for the current situation of a bad economy, etc. Also, the gap between the big Greek teams and the rest is probably getting bigger. So, the smaller teams can't compete successfully. The same thing is happening in Europe over all. The top euro teams have budgets that allow them to buy players at $100 million (!!) while most other euro teams have budgets that don't exceed a few millions. Money may not be everything, but the wealthy teams seem to win year after year.
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Russia doesn't have money. It banned Euro imports in order to conserve $$ (fewer western goods, less money needed to buy them). Russia cannot help Greece, because its economy is bad and getting worse, not only because of the western sanctions/embargo but primarily because the price of oil dropped 50% in one year. It costs Russia more to produce a barrel of oil (on average) that it sells in the open market! Saudi Arabia, on the other hand, makes money if the price is above $25-30/barrel.
Russia depends on natural gas and oil for some 65% of its exports. It's still not a wealthy country. Per capita income is about $3,500/year, though this is misleading, because most of the wealth is heavily concentrated at the top elites.
Aggression fueled by ultra-nationalism is Putin's best trump card.
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Again the naysayers are having a field day with their predictions of doom and gloom...
Your way:
* Greeks will be stuck with debts they cannot hope to repay.
* The economy will take much longer to recover.
* The same crisis will hit us again in 30, 40, 50 years or whatever.
* We will have to pay for our own currency.
* Our exports will be continued to be undermined.
In the 1960s the Greek economy was developing at a record pace, we had export markets for our products, unemployment was negligible, domestic products were favoured and protected and capital stayed put.
No one is going to tell me things are better now!
It's not "my way" it's how I see reality. I may be wrong. There are no good realistic choices for Greece right now in my opinion. If I were the King of Europe my ..memorandum would be different, yet, I would still ask for conditions if I were to lend money to a someone who has been irresponsible and untrustworthy in the past. (OK, the various Greek governments were irresponsible, falsifying the books, stealing EC subsidies, and violating international agreements)
Isn't true that when you declare bankruptcy, lenders stop giving you money? How are you going to buy the stuff you need? If you produce what you need, then you're good to go. But, Greece cannot even feed itself. How about energy needs? No one will accept drachmas, and no one will give credit to a bankrupt country for many years to come.
Everything you import is going to be very, very expensive after you leave the euro, because the drachma will be greatly a devalued currency. Then people should ask themselves what goods & services they need to have a decent life.... But, they have to find a way to pay for what they need. As it's been the case since Greece joined the EC, it has been using/spending more than it's producing. This fundamental inballance remains and no solution under any scenario can solve this problem ...not until the country finds a way to live within its own means!
Your exports are going to be cheap too, so you can sell lots since your products will become cheaper too. That's the positive aspect of going back to the drachma.
Greece in the 1950s and 60s was a very poor country. Seriously poor, underdeveloped, suffering from political instability (the Civil War was militarily over but otherwise still going on). Many (if not most) streets in the capitol region were dirt roads, and many Greeks who had ..refrigerators often put them in the living room as a display item. The rural country was literally in the dark. Greek cinema depicted life of the time accurately--not necessarily the stories, but the background against which the movies were based.
To say the "economy was developing at a record pace" maybe be true but deceptive..... if the starting point is so low, you can grow at 6-7% (GDP per year as Greece was doing then) and even though it sounds impressive it's doesn't make it an affluent country. [ie. let's say you're poor in the US today, earning $5,000 year. Next year you earn $6,000, an increase of 20%!!!. Are you not poor any longer?]
The Greek economy in the 2 decades after WW2 got a boost from the Marshall plan, modernization (farm machinery, foreign investment in factories, etc), so the argument "rapid growth" is valid but.... When I said Greeks would not want to go back to those days (50s-60s), I didn't mean they wouldn't want the rate of economic growth of that period now, but I meant the conditions of poverty, the lack of goods & services. And, yes, no one would like the political extremism of the times.
You also say that crisis like this one will hit Greece again in several decades from now. Well, let's say I feel generous today and paid all Greece's debt. Not a cent the country owes to anyone. How long before huge debts accumulate again? Unless, you argue that the enormous debts Greece accumulated since the revolution were not the result of domestic fiscal irresponsibility....
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So, leaving the Euro and stop making payments equals declaring bankruptcy. This means no one would lend you money, that is hard currency. Or, loan sharks would ask for prohibitive rates, like 40%. This is what Greece was being offered in the open market when it went asking, before the ..troika came in. The troika came in because Greece couldn't finance itself by other means. These lenders put conditions before they gave Greece money. We can debate the wisdom of the conditions. But, whether Greece needed a bailout isn't much for debate.
Now, let's say you don't like the conditions (memorandum/mnimonio) and you leave the euro. Question: where are you going to find the money to:
- buy food stuff
- buy oil/petrol
- buy other necessities the economy, consumers, the country needs to operate as a modern country (cars, military, machinery, medical techno & drugs, etc, etc)
If you produce enough, at least enough food to sustain the population, then you may not need anything else. But Greece isn't producing the food stuffs it used to. It even imports potatos.
If you consume more than you produce, if you require goods that can only be bought with hard currency, what do you do? (assuming no other country would be accepting drachmas....) This is the problem. OK> you don't have to buy a modest car that now costs the equivalent of $50-75K, but do you make enough to feed yourself?
You may go back to the conditions of the 1950s and 1960s... (See old Greek cinema for clues). But expectations and demands are much different nowadays. Even the tourists that Greece want to attract (the more afluent), expect modern ammenities, which customer-service infrastructure requires lots of hard currency
This is the reason SYRIZA--with all the pre-election talk, like "there's money", leave the "mnimonio" and whatever else they promised--cannot do anything else but negotiate only some small details of the bailout conditions and not the bailout itself. This is the reality.
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The problem with bankruptcy is that once you do it, no more credit, no more loans.
The good is that you don't have the huge debt payments to make. And, your products are now far more competitive.
However, can you think of another HUGE problem for Greece if it goes that route?....
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OK> The team doesn't have huge incentive other than end up in second place and win the playoffs. But, PAO played too many games and dropped points like this one.
Also, it's very stupid for the league to ban fans. If they're serious about violence, they can find the perps. Ban those for life. Such bans empower the vandals and penalize the good fans who want to enjoy their team. It hurts the sport too.
How many little boys don't get attached to this sport because it's too risky to go (taken by parent) to soccer games?
Those in charge of Greek football have been killing the game.
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Haha, nice pix/gif Reaper!
No, I don't think Greece has any chance of qualification, unless others are thrown out or serious points taken away. Also, I really don't believe we can get more points than the other 3rd finishers. Is only one team out of 9 groups that's left out?
The best would be to keep improving and not finish at the bottom of the group. Actually, this may be a good time for Markarian to introduce/develop new talent.
Who the hell picked Ranieri? This coach has made more money but not coaching! Seriously, he gets big contracts but he's fired early and gets paid for the remainder of the contract.
Markarian can be good. He coached some Latin America national squad recently. For years I wanted him to come back to PAO. I think he's too old to be coaching every week now on a league team.
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Unfortunately the egos involved won't make this possible. We know that when several big $$ guys were involved a few years back they couldn't agree on anything. Yes, they got the team to win a double, but they wasted a ton of money, and in essence left nothing behind but big debts.
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I agree about the lesser teams not trying hard against the reds, but seriously, I've seen too many PAO games against lesser teams where we dropped points and the reality was: we sucked! Sorry, but when you play against a team about to fall a division and you can't dominate the game, there's no excuse. Of course you may drop a point here and there because the refs aren't playing you fairly, but many of those games we lost or tied were unwatchable, for me at least. Horrible effort by the greens.
When PAO goes to the playoffs for 2nd place, wins--which shows that against the top finishers PAO plays well. I guess when it matters, they concentrate and give it all. But a championship is a long road. Consistency matters.
I've heard this from many sources: many teams don't try hard against gavroi because they believe that either the ref won't be fair or that gavroi (at least in the many years in the past) they would show up to play a serious game. And, yes, because of all the money gavroi could have had a much better squad than the lesser teams. On the other hand, PAO was considered fair game by the lesser teams, that they could grab points with relatively little effort due to PAO's inconsistency.
This is a problem that the team has to find a solution to. What needs to happen is--at least for home games--that when a mid to low level team shows up in Leoforos they know the result of a game before even the game stars! B)
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PAO has been a very frustrating team to support. This season 2014-2015, PAO has more points than anyone else against the top 6 (or top 5, 4, 3) teams in the league. But, it has dropped many points against the bottom 5 or 6.
This is a problem, a huge problem. If you want to be a champion, you must beat the lesser teams. I read a study somewhere that in other leagues, Italy, Spain, England, Germany, etc, those teams at the top do not drop many points against teams at the bottom of the standings!
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Happy New Year folks! Greeks are still cutting vasilopita, and the Chinese new year isn't here yet.
I have some drachmas left from years past, do you think they'll worth something this year?...
Today is the birth of the modern drachma, which replaced the phoenix in 1883.
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The new coach should establish a new culture within the NT. No more sacred icons, and even though I do not support a dictatorship, he should make sure that who ever is picked to be on the team they have to be absolutely professional about their work ethic and their conduct, off on the pitch.
I agree with you who said we need to start from the goalie and a great defense to build the new team. But, they have to work on possession football and creativity. Sorry, but it's been very rare for this team to move as a unit, exchange several passes, etc.
I was in favor of Karnezis when Santos was playing whatever his name was in the last Euro. But, today, Karnezis isn't good. He did not do anything special. Plus I did not like his demeanor during the penalty shootout. He was limp, looked lost, and of course totally useless. In contrast all the other goalies during showed that they were pumped up, etc.
Anyway, I believe that in life you have to make a good, accurate assessment before proceeding with changes or a plan of action. I understand that self-deception, or wishful thinking may make people feel better. And, who wants to be told about reality when it's unpleasant. I read a few sports media sources after the last game of Greece and the return of the team home. I couldn't believe headlines like, "the return of the heroes," etc. What?!....
This team played horribly. By sheer luck made it to the next round, and when Costa Rika had collapsed after playing a man down for 1 hour, GR couldn't seal the deal.
Anyway, the past is the past, but we should all learn from it.
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Not to beat a dead horse, but I blame Santos for his selectons of players, his system. I don't blame Gekas; the guy can't play any more but he shouldn't have been on this team. I saw him play in the US a couple weeks ago (friendly against Bolivia....a crappy team) and he missed everything, out of position, offside, etc. Today he was totally out of position and constantly offsde. By the way, why did they come to the US? For shopping? They should have gone to Brazil or another tropical country....
Santos was embarassed by Lazaros who came in the last 2 games and played very well. But most importantly, this team embarassed Santos; it showed that it can play better than Santos's b.s. system when they absolutely must win a game. OK. Greece is not a great team. Got to the final 16 but realistically they need to shape up and improve lots. All of us would have been happier to have seen this kind of effort throughout.
But, we could see that the team was not designed to play agressively. Today Greece dominated but couldn't really win, instead wasting their advantage over CR. The announcers kept saying that GR had so many opportunities to score, but in reality, just 3 "classic" ones. Salpi, Lazaros, and Mitro (the last 2 in OT). This is a terrirble output/effectiveness.
Finally, I have to acknowledge Karagounaros. I would not have selected him but he gave 100%+. I'm tired of his antics of acting, complaining, etc, but I wish others had his work ethic and output, and, yes, talent. He was everywhere on the field and made many, many defensive plays, It's another topic for discussion, whether he should come back to PAO, but his contributions to all of Greece's national teams are imense. He's been playing from age 15 until today, at 37.
I hope the new coach is a wind of fresh air. I was also of the opinion that Santos should have been let go last summer. Any success this team has had was despite of him, not because of him.
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Very disappointing. I had a feeling about Gekas.... s%$#!
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10 against 10, because Gekas is a minus for GR. Excellent pass by Katsou but Gekas isn't fast, and doesn't play it right.
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The momentum is with Greece, clearly. Lazaros, Toro, Holebas have very good games. But, look at Mitro and Gekas.. they seem out of place, often in off side positions. I have no hope for Gekas, but maybe Mitro or Samaras or whomever can bang one in now. They shouldn't go to PK, which is a russian roulette.
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In theory with a 1 man advantage it should be good. I haven't seen CR threaten. Greece should win this one before the PKs.
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1-1 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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s%$#!. Katsou in? And Gekas?
Goodnight. :( :xxx:
The Greek Economy Thread
in Let's talk about this
Posted
Everyone who has lived or visited Greece for a long while can see a few things. Inefficiency and corruption, plus cheating on taxes (other the pensioners and salaried people who can't hide their income). This has to be fixed. I am familiar with the waste of tons of money Greece spends to maintain missions, trade offices, consulates & embassies. Overstuffed, costly, and with a bad attitude. And they get paid very good money as compared to those in Greece. But, even many of the latter report to "work" everyday and don't really work.
The bottom line is this: if you want more money from lenders, there will be conditions, especially when you lied and misrepresented the facts in the past to get loans. I wouldn't lend my money to anyone who continues to have a lifestyle full of abuses and irresponsibility.
I know that there's lots of discussion (here and in Greece) about the difference among the various political parties, but all are in agreement as to how to use the state as an extension of their patronage.