Summer 2009 transfers

[Clover22]

[drakos13]

This is an extremely negative, pointless, defeatist attitude and opinion about the team. You apparently seem to think you're being realistic, but its just the opposite. We are absolutely NOT an unlikely candidate for the CL next season; we came very close to advancing to the last 8 for the last 2 seasons in Europe. A couple of things need to be straightened out defensively, then I think we have a really tough side. Our team can rise to the occasion when we're in Europe; we actually have the ability to do this and proved it. And we're the only Greek team that can as of now. We're not as far off from making it to a CL final as you think, but the mindset within the organization has to be collectively positive.

                        We have money, but when you get into millions and millions then its a matter of greed, quite often, and not passion for the sport. The Greek league certainly has its problems but we have a lot of talented players and very passionate fans. And nice weather.

No, I'm being QUITE realistic. Have you SEEN the new CL format? Assuming we make it through the first part (which I beleive will happen)

THEN if we make it past that were put in potential draws of:

Arsenal

Fiorentina

Lyon

Atletico Madrid

Stuttgart

Be serious. We all saw PAO play this season, and despite 3 good results in Europe and the playoffs --- we were atrocious - this is one of the worst PAO domestic seasons we've seen in a while. I've seen Arsenal. They are the better team. Same with Fiorentina, Atletico Madrid, Lyon. Stuttgart are capable of beatin us though we could definitley beat them.

PAO among those teams, is without a doubt not a favourite to win. So, less likely to qualify for CL is not at all straying from a realistic statement.

We can pull an upset no doubt - but odds are strongly against us, as these are teams of overall better quality. Realistically, were contenders, but if you were a prospective signing would you consider PAO as a Champions League team this season seeing whats ahead ? Not likely.

A team of Sareigui, Vyntra, Kante, Moon, Spyropoulos and likely offloaded players we need like Simao, Mantzios (our best european performers) plus anticipated signigns that in all likelihood (past records) are not going to be too special ---- to call them a likely CL candidate- not against those teams absolutely not.

As for money, you are dreaming if you think Panathinaikos has Fenerbahce's money. Simply dreaming. We DONT have those sort of funds to compete with such mega signings all the time.

Love of the game? All players love the game. But players are working, and they need compensation. When they leave the Western Leagues to go play in smaller leagues and clubs, they assume a lot of risk in their value, and maintaing their high standard of play, being off the radar etc - that risk, is only balanced by money.

[cyberfish]

Did I miss something? I was under the impression that if we qualify for the third round we would face one of the Fiorentina, Atletico Madrid, Seltic, Anterleht, Stoutgard. Can someone clarify?

BTW, this whole CL is getting out of hand. If we don't make the CL groups we will play in the Europa groups. This cup has been overhauled to be more prestigious and rich. If we make the CL groups I'd be ecstatic, but if we don't I like our chances in the new Europa cup. Actually, I've been secretly dreaming about a Europa league semifinal next winter B)

I think our transfers need to work independent of where we play next year. We need to improve the team to play better ball and to establish a winning attitude no matter where we play. Then we can hopefully dominate the domestic league and have some good runs in Europe. People in Greece laugh at "5-year plans" but every enterprise in the developed world uses such medium range plans to keep focused. I would like to see us work towards contending for a Europa cup final in that many years (without telling the press).

We have an excellent base to build upon. Players like Seitaridis, Puygrinie, Engelar, Katsouranis, Jovanovic, Cruz, Sant, would be an improvement. Bring them all in and let everyone compete. The club will be better for it.

[drakos13]

They divided into a runners up round - "best placed round" with 2 rounds

PAO is seeded alongside Shaxtar, Anderlecht, Celtic, Sporting Lisbon

We can play: Sparta, Twente, Dinamo Moscow, Sviaspor, Timisoara

(on your average year thats going to be way more difficult)in the first round.

then, if we make it to the next round:

we play either:

Arsenal

Stuttgart

Fiorentina

Atletico

Lyon

I'm not sure, but I dont think we can draw the other teams in the second round. I did'nt feel it was pessimistic or unrealistic to say odds are against PAO to qualify with those sort of draw prospects. If they let the other winner teams in and seed us, then our chances are better, but I'm not so sure it works that way.

[drakos13]

Julio Cruz has accepted PAO's offer, and will likely be signing in the near future.

This could be a great signing----provided we get another top class striker too.

http://www.contra.gr/Soccer/Hellas/Superle...kos/242090.html

http://www.prasinanea.gr/html/ent/215/ent.3215.asp

[NikosVazelas]

the 5 teams from the 2nd round are Anderlecht, Celtic, Stuttgart, Fiorentina and Athletico Madrid

http://www.xs4all.nl/~kassiesa/bert/uefa/s...seedcl2009.html

[cyberfish]

Drako, I have not seen any new reports, but what I read earlier on indicated that we were seeded in both rounds. Either way, like I said, we need to focus on building a team that can compete with the likes of Arsenal, Atletico, Lyon, and the like. I think we can qualify even against these teams if we add a formitable CF and maybe a winger.

Cruz at a reported 5m for two years is expensive, but now fans can stop complaining that we don't spend money.

BTW, I like the Cruz move. I do admit that it's a bit of a risk given his age. It's all going to come down to motivation. If he works hard and wants to do well, he will be the perfect CF for us, if he is really coming over to retire then we'll be looking at a flop.

If the reports are true that we are going to buy a second CF if Cruz signs, then it would be a smart move. Having two competent CF at 5m each (instead of one at 10m) is smart and ensures against injury or bad form.

He could be the remedy to breaking down these 10-man defenses with headers, even if he does become a part-time starter. Time will tell.

Erasport also said that Katsouranis is still on a good track to sign and Engelar as well. The reporter said that there might be a thought in Ten Cate's mind to begin playing with three CMs and two strikers. It's a system that served us well in Europe but I don't think it would be a full time formation. Ten Cate rarely used a 4-3-2-1 at home.

[drakos13]

Its not about spending money - its about using it properly too.

Spending 3 million on a 35 year old striker is not the most intelligent thing I have heard.

Its definitly a risk - 33 is fine. hes 35 very soon. We have no idea how fit he is having a only subtitute appearances last year with Inter. Could be good or very bad. Best thing to do is get another forward. We need a wide range of striking power. We should aim to be way out in front of the league by December.

Gilberto got 3 million a year ---- he nowhere near earned that on the pitch.

As for CL, I hope thats right. We could get a favorable draw, but Atletico/Fiorentina worry me, Stuttgart too.

[XXX-18T]

whats Larsson doing these days?

:P

[XXX-18T]

Monday, June 15, 2009 : Both deals can be sealed this week

Panathinaikos are edging ever closer to adding Julio Cruz and Costas Katsouranis to their roster.

After the first positive contacts Panathinaikos officials had with the representatives of the Argentine striker, the latter are expected in Athens on Monday evening for the final negotiations over the former Inter star’s contract.

The Greens have offered the 34-year-old player a two-year contract for 2.5 million euros per year, but are ready to raise their bid to 3 million euros if they have to.

Cruz has reportedly spoken with his former teammates at Inter, Giorgos Karagounis of Panathinaikos and Lambros Choutos of PAOK and they both assured him it would be a great move for him at this stage to join the Champions League challengers.

“Come to Panathinaikos and you’ll be treated like a king,” Karagounis, the Greens’ captain, reportedly told the Argentine who has been spending his holidays in Crete. As far as Katsouranis is concerned, the road is open for Panathinaikos to repatriate the Greek international defensive midfielder as Hamburg have withdrawn their offer to Benfica to sign him, according to the Portuguese press.

Katsouranis’s agent is to go to Lisbon by Tuesday at the latest to secure the termination of the player’s contract which will immediately mean that the former AEK footballer can join Panathinaikos.

http://www.sportingreece.com

The Greens have reportedly agreed with him on a four-year deal fetching Katsouranis over 1 million euros per year.

[drakos13]

The media is blowing this cruz thing out of proportion.

Hes 35, out of favour ---- and their acting like we signed him is "impossible". He was never an International "mega-star' but at top scorer in Italy for Bologna and a few seasons with Inter. He played 900 mins last year, goals, 2. I still think he'll be quite useful, but please can they spare us the superstar crap?

He's a good quality player at an unwanted age in his career who an offer from PAO that was way better than anything he would take.

Look at this headline on Prasina Nea :LOL:

http://www.prasinanea.gr/

I like their site quite a lot, for the most part it references its outside sources, doesnt spew too much BS , good site layout, and multi PAO sports news. But stupidity like the Rocket implying tha Cruz is a "Bam". please....Our forward signings are still very much incomplete IF Cruz signs the deal.

[cyberfish]

I don't know. If you read most of the posts here, no one is blowing Cruz out of proportion. Hyperbole is a ploy by Greek papers who want to be noticed at the kiosk, and most Greeks over 18 years of age see right through this.

Cruz would be useful. Erasport just reported that if he is signed, and because he is a free transfer, Panathinaikos will aquire one more striker that would cost around 8m. He said in previous reports that this second striker will be in his mid-twenties - someone like Bobo (just an example of the type of player, he said). I like the idea and I don't care how much money they spent as long as they don't spend my money :P

[drakos13]

Bobo I hope doesnt go through. he's not bad, but hes' not really special. I'd liek to here more from our "GS the Great" about the guy to be honest.

His scoring stats for the Turkish league just arent really worth 8 million to be quite honest, but anyways he is an example.

Cruz as a 2nd striker is great. As long as theirs another of course. Then I could see him coming on and bailing us out, scoring etc. But if we give him the #9 and icon status to save us, he'll probably be too out of shape/off game/old to make the League happen this year.

As for CL again, I'm starting to think Europa Cup would actually be quite good for Greece at least, assuming we make it. Looking at the coefficients, teams get practically equal points competing in UEFA and CL. So if PAO can get some wins and good form, Greece could rack up some major needed points. But, we should be able to take those teams in the CL stages, as long as its not Lyon-Arsenal.....

[GreenTitus]

It seems that the Cruz thing is not going to happen. It's all over the internet so no need for a link - just pick your favourite website. Btw, if these are indeed his managers' demands, I hope they brought protection because they 're clearly here to screw us big time.

[Clover22]

Drakos most of your posts are spot on but I just think you're too quick to shoot things down. So as far as the CL, Lyon, Arsenal...are you kidding, we can't take them on? Bring 'em on! I was checking them out this season, they're not THAT great, certainly nothing we can't handle. Fiorentina I haven't watched enough...are they as deep as us in midfield?

As for Cruz...do we really want a guy who will most likely retire soon? That to me is not building up a team, or thinking long term. Unless of course, he's absolutely ON FIRE. Maldini just retired at 40 and he wasn't on his way down, he was still playing great. Is that the case with this guy? And do you guys think we need 2 strikers? I was thinking just 1.

[cyberfish]

I have heard reports that the Cruz deal will be worth a little under 3m for two years with lots of incentives to reach that number. I suspect PAO will try to work a 1+1 contract worth about 1.2 m in salaries, plus a few more bucks in incentives. I don't think it's a bad deal if this is the case. Obviously his agents are looking for more money and more time on the contract. It might take a while. I am sure they'll go away and look for a better deal for a few weeks. If they get it I don't think anyone at PAO will be upset. I just hope they haven't abandoned the other CF cases.

[drakos13]

Cruz is aksing for 3.5 million a year + 2 million signing bonus??? :LOL:

Hes 35, played 900 mins last year, 2 goals - who the hell does he think hes kidding?

He's clearly trying to screw us, and lets be honest, its quite possible our offer really is too high for a rotation forward.

I say buy him and his agents a taxi to the airport, and move on to finding the real forward that were looking to sign.

Games, ridiculously high demands on a 35 year old dropped by his team?

We dont need to be wasting time on a player who is going to be pulling this nonsense - hes not going to get an offer that good anywhere else. I'm fairly sure the guy is not interested in actually playing serious football in Greece anyways.

[NikosVazelas]

For 9 million per two years in salary 4.5/year... or 86 k/euro per week... we can get Falcao or Nilmar.... EASILY... Tell this dude to F*** off.. Pardon my language..

Im all for big names... but thats a ridiculous salary... Siga re... Iremise...

By the way... Ibrahimovic gets 97k/euro per week At Inter...

[NikosVazelas]

IF MANTZIOS, SALPI and RUKAVINA stay... we only need 1 high profile striker..

It is risky getting young talent...

Look at DIOGO from oly..c yber might help me on this but i think he scored somethign liek 11 goals last year... and he played every game except 3... and nearly every mintue.. and they bough 50% of him for 10 million..

Thats a milliong dollars per goal... If thats the case... Pay 25 million and get that kid from Lyon.. Benzema...

[NikosVazelas]

Alright... here it is...

Sell Gilberto for 5 milliong to Juve.. pick up Katsouranis and Engelaar.. Play with 3 CMs (Simao) With Engelaar playign higher up due to his precise passing...

Sign Giourka and pay him the 800k he wants and close down that right side the way you should.

Sell Bryce Moon to West Ham for 2.5 milliong for 60% of the rights (thats the rumoured Deal)

Pick up another strong CB and Keep sariegui for games like Kavala or Panaitolikos in the greek cup or freindlies right before the season,

Sell Salpi and or Cleyton to germany for total of 7 million.

Pick up a Bonafide superstar striker ( Falcao, Nilmar) and a superstar winger for 10 million (Drenthe, Jovanovic) and play with Kara on the opposite side and have Mantzios Ivan Ruka Ninis MAttos and Petro coming off the bench....

Total Sales

Gilberto 5

Salp Cleyto 7

Moon 2,5

Total___ 14.5

___________________

Total Purchases

Katsou, Engelaar,Kante , Giourkas and CB 2__ 6.5 million

CF___ 7-8 million

LM/AM --9-10 million

TOTAL___24.5 million

24.5 - 14.5 = 10 million

Getting into the CL group stage 12 million

NET PROFIT= 2 million

Winning the league and competing int he CL .. PRICELESS

[cyberfish]

Ha ha, you are not an accountant are you Niko?

BTW, you forgot Morris, Malartz, , Tziolis, Dimoutsos, and possibly Darlas who will be sold and bring some money in. Morrris/Tziolis should bring a couple of Million between them.

I don't know man, you changed the whole team in three posts. That's priceless. I would disagree a little with you. I don't think we should sell anyone. If the budget has been allocated we just need to buy three or four players. I don't want any profits I just want a wining team. Changing the core of the team would be horrible management at this point. We just need to add the right pieces to improve what we have. BTW, I heard/read somewhere that Falcao has been signed but I've read so many names I am "holding a small basket".

Also, the numbers I've seen are astronomical for some of these players. For Nilmar the transfer fee starts at around 16m (that's before we start negotiating with S. American teams that have a way of inflating numbers afterwards). For Drenhde, Real wants 13 million.

I don't care if we pay it, but I get the feeling PAO doesn't have that kind of money. Despite the big talk, so far they have been going after free agents (Kante, Cruz, Seitaridis), and players who are unwanted by their teams (Puygrenier, Engelaar, Katsouranis). It's obvious to me that they are staying away from paying transfer fees for players under contract.

The talk is big but the signs show otherwise.

[NikosVazelas]

First off, i dont think i changed the whole team. I mean if u think about it.. every year we sign 5 or 6 players.. I just want, for once , that the5 or 6 players we sign actually are impact players and get to play more then say... Romero, Souza and Melissis... Thats 7 million for those 3 players.. and if u think about it.. how many total games did those 3 players play.

im sure pao doesnt have the MONEY we think it has and im sure they wont spend 50 million on transfers... but hey.. if they spent 20 last year.. on players that barely played.. excluding Gilberto Silva... why not spend 25 on players that will play and make an impact..

I mean last year we bought or kept players worth up to 23 million. And we only loaned out morris, malartz, dimoutsos and darlas. We didnt sell anyone.

So why not think bigger.. Sell soem assets that, yes are good players, but ca be replaced by players with a few million dollars.

If falcao costs 12 million buy him. I doubt its that high but buy him. Sell cleyton and Salpi and buy falcao...

BTE i really rate Engelaar, if we can land him our whole midfield is altered.

I mean having

Moon-----Vyntra---Kante---Spyropoulo

---Katsouranis-----Engelaar---Simao

Kara--------------------------Ivan/Drenthe

---------------Falcao--------------------

Looks pretty good to me...\

And thats saying we dont buy an AM or a CB or a RB

Im pretty sure Katsouranis is a done deal. And Im glad. That kid is all heart and pure talent. we need that goal scoring ability from the DM position. It helps when your CM/DM can pot 6 or 7 goals in a season.

Simao is a dog and will be sold probably next yearfor about 10 million... Especially with another CL campaign this season... No doubt..

Engelaar has a needle thread pass..He is a special player. VERY underated. I watched him play alot the last few seasons.. I watch alot of german bundesliga as my buddy is greek from germany and he loves Stuttgart... ( hope we draw them) and watched engelaar in many games with Schalke.. and even though he got alot of heat this year...

http://www.goal.com/en/news/725/bundesliga...-season-2008-09

I still think he is fabulous. He makes a list for an under achieving team even though he basically was aloen out there at midfield.. Not to mention his hiehgt.. I believe its at 2m or 6'7'' but im not sure.... soemwhere very close.

The front 3 ( or 4 when playing domestic... can have any of the

( Kara, Ninis, Mantzios, Ruka, Ivan and any other signings or non sales during transfer season)

I love salpi. To death. But i believe at his age, he is better off playign in the bundesliga.. plus his contract is up at the end of the season and i fear a paok return is in the cards...

Who wuld you rather have right now.. honestly. Gekas or Salpi.

Like i said.. im all for change especially if we are bying players anyway.

Last year we secured our youth by signing, Petropoulos, Rukavina, Xristodoulopoulo and havign Ninis return...

Maybe its time we buy some aged veterans or woudl be superstars for a change.

And yes im an accountant.. and im pretty sure that Pao's general ledger is definitely showing a profit of over 10 million fromlast summer. And thats being REALLLLLL leniant....

Need your taxes done? msg me...

[Euro2004]

Sign Giourka and pay him the 800k he wants and close down that right side the way you should.

Sell Bryce Moon to West Ham for 2.5 milliong for 60% of the rights (thats the rumoured Deal)

If we sell Moon and buy Seitaridis we'll still need another right back. Moon is a huge talent and he has to stay.

As for the Cruz thing I'm a little relieved he isn't going to sign. But where did you get the link that he'll be on 87k euros a week? If that's true then they should sign me, I'd be worth at least 10k euros a week! :tup: Let's go and get some proper forwards! <_<

[NikosVazelas]

We also have Gabriel and Vyntra that can play at RB.. But I wouldn't sell him either.. Ive stated in other posts that I look forward to seeing Moon as Rb fir the full season..

As for Cruz.. The deal is or supposedly is 3.5 per season plus a 2.5 signin bonus... 9 million for 2 years is an average of 4.5 per season which translates to 86 k per week..

Note: Kaka just signed with Real for 9 million per season.. Half of Kaka is what Cruz is worth.???

[athinaios]

Even though I recognize the talent and stature of Cruz, I don't want him to sign with PAO. He wants the money to close out his career. He's a great risk at great expense.

I hope I'm wrong, but Matos and/or Simao may be sold. These 2 kids should stay, but I don't see how both can stay if Katsou comes... plus others...

The other thing I'd like to mention is that PAO should work establishing a core of players that care about the team, understand where they play. Many players come to PAO because they want to play in Euro games and don't care much about the domestic league.

Judging from the team's performance this past season, I'd say the players didn't care about the title, nor the cup. They all figured out that second place, or at least through the playoffs they can get to the CL.

But, that's a bad attitude...