Bananas

I meant the 50 billion.

I'm seriously worried Tsipras is going to cave in to all of the EU's demands.

Only private property. Maybe the Greek government can forcibly take ownership of everything, and everyone can pay rent to the new landlord of Germany. :)

Agree with you on France and Italy. They are worried that in time, they will be forced to cede control of their economies entirely. As for the Euro project, I consider it a failure. It doesn't have any way for a country to get out of trouble, other than through devaluation. This has always been it's major weakness. It can't work without a central authority, which countries were never willing to sign on to. In simple terms, its too inflexible. Greece is better off with out it. Leaving the Euro will mean incredibly harsh times for the first 2 years or so. Maybe in 5 years from now, we'll be where we are now economically, but from there onwards, especially 10+ years from now, Greece will be infinitely better off with its own currency.

By Paul Krugman, Anger at the demands on Greece, gathered on social media under the hashtag #thisisacoup is gaining traction. Nobel laureate economist, Paul Krugman, has lambasted the summit developments in his column at the New York Times, and thrown his support behind #thisisacoup. Suppose you consider Tsipras an incompetent twerp. Suppose you dearly want to see Syriza out of power. Suppose, even, that you welcome the prospect of pushing those annoying Greeks out of the euro. Even if all of that is true, this Eurogroup list of demands is madness. The trending hashtag ThisIsACoup is exactly right. This goes beyond harsh into pure vindictiveness, complete destruction of national sovereignty, and no hope of relief. It is, presumably, meant to be an offer Greece can?t accept; but even so, it?s a grotesque betrayal of everything the European project was supposed to stand for.

Well it's been an interesting pre season. Some observations ... not necessarily correct. The change to 3-5-2 seemed radical to begin with, but kind of makes sense. I can only guess that Tudor doesn't believe we have the strength to play with 2 CB's, so he wants a 3rd CB to compensate for that. Scoring all those own goals was kind of comical though. If he wants this to be our main system for the majority of the year, we'll definitely need to sign 1 more CB for depth, unless he plans on using Skondras there full time. Speaking of Skondras, where is he ? Has he been playing ? I wonder if Tudor doesn't want to use him on the flank ie. he doesn't rate his attacking abilities as good enough. Skondras was one of our better players last season, so it would be a shame if he couldn't find a role in this new system. I like Tudor's emphasis on set pieces. This is professional football 101. Pelkas has bee a revelation and it's great to see another kid from the academy might be a permanent part of the team! Who the hell is Mystakidis lol. Again, great to see. Charisis seems like he might be the real deal. Good to see. Rats ? Does he have a role in this system ? Tudor seems to be favouring wingers over wing backs, although it's too early to say really. It's only pre season. If that is the case though, we are sorely lacking in wingers. Only Mak is an out and out extrem. With the return of Pelkas and Lucas, it's like we've signed 2 players. Hope they both keep up the good work. I really hope Lucas stays and can produce the sort of form he had in Spain in the second half of the season. Glykos. Hope he bounces back from the injury. We need a solid backup keeper.

I'm still undecided on how to answer this question, because I don't know and no one does, to what lengths the Germans will go to make Greece suffer to get the result they want. The ECB pulling the pin on liquidity was unexpected and changed everything. It was the nuclear option. Other potential EU candidates must be jumping up with joy at joining such a nice club.

Great post. Especially the comment about the schizophrenic position of the greek population ie. they want the Euro but without austerity. One comes with the other, it's that simple. I think the meeting today was just the entree. The real meeting is coming where the political heads as opposed to the finance ministers will do the talking. I still think the German position of accepting a Grexit is a ruse. But, tomorrow or this week I could be proven wrong. Schauble proposing a 5 year temporary exit and the "acquisition" of 50 billion in assets (maybe they can liquidate all the periptora in Greece) was out of left field. That took me by surprise. I'd accept his offer on two conditions. First, it's permanent as opposed to 5 years, and second, we send him 50 billion "F*** you" messages instead of giving him 50 billion in Greek assets.

Well there are Nobel winning economists who think a Grexit is better in the long run. So it's not necessarily a crap idea. It's at least worthy of consideration ... The problem with all this is that agreece should have gotten prepared for a EZ exit. Have the money printed. Have your plans organised. And if all else fails you can get the ball rolling quickly. But, this is Greece we're talking about.

The EU will drag this out as long as necessary to get the agreement they want. In breaking news, Greece offers all their first born males to work in EU salt mines. Schauble says, not enough.

So basically going back to the dpx can't happen because logistically we can't print the money and get the job done quickly enough. What is to stop Greece from getting more presses ? Heck, we could even buy some German ones. Their machinery is reliable after all ;) But, the point is moot anyhow, since the greater majority of Greeks still want to use the Euro. The sad fact of the matter is that the only way Greece or any other country can leave the EZ, is with Germany's permission. At the end of the day, the EU is not a Germanic hegemon but it's damn close. They have by far the most influence and say, and the Euro being valued where it is, is a delight to the German economy. If they ever returned to the Deutschmark, it would quickly rise in value and their export oriented economy would face difficulties. This is the main reason why Germany doesn't want a Grexit. The monies owed to them by Greece is a pittance compared to the competitive advantage they get by having a devalued Euro, relative to a hypothetical Deutschmark. If hypothetically Greece left against Germany's will, and returned to the dpx, Germany and through their influence other EZ members, would do everything in their power to make sure the Greek economy didn't succeed. To be fair, we would probably ruin it of our own accord, but you can be sure they would make every effort to also make it fail. A resurgence of the Greek economy post Grexit, would be the ultimate German nightmare, as it would give other countries the courage to leave also. So, trying to make a new dpx succeed is difficult enough, and unknown, coupled with the fact that Germany would be their to bury you at every opportunity, doesn't sound appetising. There is also the political cost. EZ members wouldn't exactly be keen to support Greece with any issues with our neighbours. We would be quite isolated. There are only two ways that Greece will ever get its own currency, and both scenarios are years away. The first is Greece keeps spiralling downhill, and the EU get to to the point that Greece has to leave the EZ. In this case, it would be with Germany's permission, and it would be coordinated and infinitely less chaotic. The second way is other nations find themselves in trouble and Germany isn't just dealing with an insolvement Greece, but a Spain or an Italy as well. But again, this is a long way away if ever. Note that when I say Germany's permission, that doesn't mean the German government. They will never ever willingly let Greece go. What I mean by Germany's permission is that the German people are so fed up with the situation that no politician will be willing to wear the political cost of keeping Greece in the EZ.

The EU as an economic entity is run essentially by people who still think of economics in terms of the gold standard. To them, it feels right. But, there's a reason why the gold standard was dropped. It was inflexible, and so is the Euro. Once a country gets into trouble (regardless of how they got into trouble and who is at fault), the only solution is deflation. And, as the world has gotten to see over the last 5 years or so in Ireland, Portugal, Spain, Italy and Greece, deflation is a nasty beast that feeds on itself. It feels right to balance the budget by say slashing government employees or wages, but the flow on creates more deflation. Greece is a bad economic manager but the EU is probably just as bad. The problem with the EU is that the Germans have the most influence, and they have such a phobia of inflation that it's ridiculous. Seriously, they are sitting there wondering why Greece hasn't recovered after 5 years of their "remedies". Fools. As heavy as the pain will be for Greece, having your own currency is the only solution.

Considering the ridiculous transfer fees in the EPL for players that are really pretty average, Kace should be worth at least 4+ million. Sometimes you can just tell when a player "has it", and he's one of those players. He's not going to suddenly go backwards and we'll look back and think it was just a purple patch. Agree with Serraios, around $2M feels low considering his potential.

Forcing Greece to accept the same terms would just go to show how bad an institution the EU is. It would also be the end (and rightly so) for Tsipras and Syriza. Having said that, we still don't know what game Tsipras is playing. If it comes to it, will he back down to the EU or will he tell them where to stick it ? I'm expecting a "retreat and declare victory" moment from both the EU and Tsipras.

Tsipras is saying it all depends on the EU, but the EU is saying it all depends on Greece. It's quite possible the EU aren't concerned about the referendum result, and it's business as usual as far as they are concerned. My guess is the fact that 75% of Greeks still want to be in the EZ gives the EU the impression that Tsipras won't use the nuclear option ie. issuing "temporary" IOU's, but who can tell ? The EU doesn't want to yield too much because that would set a bad precedent, and Tsipras can't yield too much either. There will just be some tweaking at the edges and Greece's long term situation will still remain unresolved. I can see Golden Dawn doing well in the next election.

It will be interesting to see how the Spanish elections later this year turn out. If they get a party that is anti-austerity as well, the EU will have a real problem on their hands. Greece on it's own will never bring down the EU, not even close, but it could be a catalyst. Throw in an angry and defiant Spain into the mix, and the EU will be seriously worried.

Yeah .... nah. When Varoufakis was asked by Tsipras to be the Fin Min he stated :- - he has no desire or wish to become a career politician. - he doesn't agree 100% with Syriza's political views but felt he must help the nation to the best of his abilities. - his ideal scenario with Greece's debt would be that Greece defaults within the EZ. - his ideal scenario with the EU is that it gets a massive wakeup call, because the way they are running things (austerity, austerity, austerity) will lead to the eventual disintegration of the EU. As far as I can tell, Varoufakis achieved all of his goals. At the very least he's irritated the hell of out the Germans and EU and for that alone he deserves a bronze statue! :D I wouldn't be surprised if he had the idea to resign at the same time as the announcement of the referendum. I wouldn't put it past him.

Varoufakis has resigned. I wonder if that was the plan all along. You never know with this man. http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/06/minister-no-more/ I particularly like this quote "And I shall wear the creditors? loathing with pride."

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From Paul Krugman blog. http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/05/europe-wins/?module=BlogPost-Title&version=Blog%20Main&contentCollection=Opinion&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs&region=Body Tsipras and Syriza have won big in the referendum, strengthening their hand for whatever comes next. But they?re not the only winners: I would argue that Europe, and the European idea, just won big ? at least in the sense of dodging a bullet. I know that?s not how most people see it. But think of it this way: we have just witnessed Greece stand up to a truly vile campaign of bullying and intimidation, an attempt to scare the Greek public, not just into accepting creditor demands, but into getting rid of their government. It was a shameful moment in modern European history, and would have set a truly ugly precedent if it had succeeded. But it didn?t. You don?t have to love Syriza, or believe that they know what they?re doing ? it?s not clear that they do, although the troika has been even worse ? to believe that European institutions have just been saved from their own worst instincts. If Greece had been forced into line by financial fear mongering, Europe would have sinned in a way that would sully its reputation for generations. Instead, it?s something we can, perhaps, eventually regard as an aberration. And if Greece ends up exiting the euro? There?s actually a pretty good case for Grexit now ? and in any case, democracy matters more than any currency arrangement.

Some observations. - The No vote did surprise me. After all the (mis)reporting this week I was expecting it to be a lot closer. - Tsipras and Varoufakis need to get in there and negotiate, and do it quickly. Their proposals have to be reasonable and the Troika have to bend a little. Having the IMF (surprisingly) admit they got things wrong, coupled with the No vote, means the EU can't just ignore the situation and keep insisting on only their terms. - Now is the perfect time for the EU to get rid of Greece, if that is what they truly want. All they have to do is keep stalling the negotiations and let the banks go bust while the situation in Greece crumbles each day. The negotiations in the coming days, weeks or month will indicate their position. I've always maintained Greece leaving the EZ is their worst fear. Let's see what happens. I don't see this as a realistic outcome. - Regardless of the referendum result, or the negotiations to come, I think this is a win for Greece and for the EU as well. Hopefully the EU realises that austerity, austerity, austerity is not always the best way forward.

Don't agree. I think this is more like the entree, and there is still main and dessert to be served. More like Def Con 4 to 3. If the EU plays that game, Greece will be forced to issue IOU's just like California did. The pressure on the EU will mount and they will look like they are kicking a man who's already down. The EU has miscalculated before (they seem to have a good track record) and although they may think this could break the Syriza government, it could back fire as well. Samaras quitting (that caught me by surprise) doesn't help their cause.

Jimmy, if the criteria for posting on this thread are that you need to have spent x amount of days, months or years living in Greece before you can post, you're going to have a very quiet thread with not many posts. Where is the cut off ? Can one post if they've lived in Greece for 5 years, but it was 20 years ago ? Or can they post if they lived there for 2 years, 5 years ago ? Is there a formula ? Saying that posters shouldn't post due to such a reason is a bit rich don't you think ? People can form opinions (other than eyes on the ground) especially these days with the internet making alternative views and ideas so accessible. I know that my opinion of Greece was very different to friends of mine. It's so ... subjective you see. But my friends can't say that their view of reality is better or more accurate than mine, because they stayed in Greece a few weeks longer or less than I did. You seem to have a real problem with anyone disagreeing with you. It's an internet forum. And people have their opinions. And it's a politics thread! Just accept it. Your "I'm going to give it to him" style of posting with anyone that disagrees with you is over the top. You have some good points, so just make them. No need to be so combative all the time. Or do you just enjoy the verbal jousting ? Just saying.

I'll tell you what, if the No vote gets up, it was meant to be. The EU has tried everything in their power to stop the No vote from winning. They stopped liquidity which led to this week's capital controls. Shameful. And now this pearl of a quote from Mr. Martin Schulz. ?If they (Greeks) say ?No?, they will have to introduce another currency after the referendum because the euro is not available as a means of payment," Martin Schulz, the president of the European Parliament, said in remarks broadcast on Germany?s Deutschlandfunk radio on Sunday. Just as the polling begins. Nice timing.

Nice post aek66. Agree with you 100% about how the elite try to bottle wealth. Greece has been a shining beacon of this for the last 4 or so decades. Someone should write a text book on it. As to how to start over, I remember Varoufakis saying he was going to go after the "oligarchs" when Syriza were first elected but I haven't heard much since then in terms of practical action. I hope he gets a chance to do it, because I believe him when he says he wants stop them having so much influence over the country. And yes, whatever happened to the Lagarde list. Has it been swept under the carpet for good ?