Bananas

From Paul Krugman blog. http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/05/europe-wins/?module=BlogPost-Title&version=Blog%20Main&contentCollection=Opinion&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs&region=Body Tsipras and Syriza have won big in the referendum, strengthening their hand for whatever comes next. But they?re not the only winners: I would argue that Europe, and the European idea, just won big ? at least in the sense of dodging a bullet. I know that?s not how most people see it. But think of it this way: we have just witnessed Greece stand up to a truly vile campaign of bullying and intimidation, an attempt to scare the Greek public, not just into accepting creditor demands, but into getting rid of their government. It was a shameful moment in modern European history, and would have set a truly ugly precedent if it had succeeded. But it didn?t. You don?t have to love Syriza, or believe that they know what they?re doing ? it?s not clear that they do, although the troika has been even worse ? to believe that European institutions have just been saved from their own worst instincts. If Greece had been forced into line by financial fear mongering, Europe would have sinned in a way that would sully its reputation for generations. Instead, it?s something we can, perhaps, eventually regard as an aberration. And if Greece ends up exiting the euro? There?s actually a pretty good case for Grexit now ? and in any case, democracy matters more than any currency arrangement.

Some observations. - The No vote did surprise me. After all the (mis)reporting this week I was expecting it to be a lot closer. - Tsipras and Varoufakis need to get in there and negotiate, and do it quickly. Their proposals have to be reasonable and the Troika have to bend a little. Having the IMF (surprisingly) admit they got things wrong, coupled with the No vote, means the EU can't just ignore the situation and keep insisting on only their terms. - Now is the perfect time for the EU to get rid of Greece, if that is what they truly want. All they have to do is keep stalling the negotiations and let the banks go bust while the situation in Greece crumbles each day. The negotiations in the coming days, weeks or month will indicate their position. I've always maintained Greece leaving the EZ is their worst fear. Let's see what happens. I don't see this as a realistic outcome. - Regardless of the referendum result, or the negotiations to come, I think this is a win for Greece and for the EU as well. Hopefully the EU realises that austerity, austerity, austerity is not always the best way forward.

Don't agree. I think this is more like the entree, and there is still main and dessert to be served. More like Def Con 4 to 3. If the EU plays that game, Greece will be forced to issue IOU's just like California did. The pressure on the EU will mount and they will look like they are kicking a man who's already down. The EU has miscalculated before (they seem to have a good track record) and although they may think this could break the Syriza government, it could back fire as well. Samaras quitting (that caught me by surprise) doesn't help their cause.

Jimmy, if the criteria for posting on this thread are that you need to have spent x amount of days, months or years living in Greece before you can post, you're going to have a very quiet thread with not many posts. Where is the cut off ? Can one post if they've lived in Greece for 5 years, but it was 20 years ago ? Or can they post if they lived there for 2 years, 5 years ago ? Is there a formula ? Saying that posters shouldn't post due to such a reason is a bit rich don't you think ? People can form opinions (other than eyes on the ground) especially these days with the internet making alternative views and ideas so accessible. I know that my opinion of Greece was very different to friends of mine. It's so ... subjective you see. But my friends can't say that their view of reality is better or more accurate than mine, because they stayed in Greece a few weeks longer or less than I did. You seem to have a real problem with anyone disagreeing with you. It's an internet forum. And people have their opinions. And it's a politics thread! Just accept it. Your "I'm going to give it to him" style of posting with anyone that disagrees with you is over the top. You have some good points, so just make them. No need to be so combative all the time. Or do you just enjoy the verbal jousting ? Just saying.

I'll tell you what, if the No vote gets up, it was meant to be. The EU has tried everything in their power to stop the No vote from winning. They stopped liquidity which led to this week's capital controls. Shameful. And now this pearl of a quote from Mr. Martin Schulz. ?If they (Greeks) say ?No?, they will have to introduce another currency after the referendum because the euro is not available as a means of payment," Martin Schulz, the president of the European Parliament, said in remarks broadcast on Germany?s Deutschlandfunk radio on Sunday. Just as the polling begins. Nice timing.

Nice post aek66. Agree with you 100% about how the elite try to bottle wealth. Greece has been a shining beacon of this for the last 4 or so decades. Someone should write a text book on it. As to how to start over, I remember Varoufakis saying he was going to go after the "oligarchs" when Syriza were first elected but I haven't heard much since then in terms of practical action. I hope he gets a chance to do it, because I believe him when he says he wants stop them having so much influence over the country. And yes, whatever happened to the Lagarde list. Has it been swept under the carpet for good ?

Thanks to everyone that participated in the vote. The results :- NO - 11 votes. YES - 4 votes. Abstain - 3 votes.

Come on people. Don't forget to cast your vote. After all, the Greeks invented democracy!!

Come on people. Don't forget to cast your vote. After all, the Greeks invented democracy!!

Fully agree with you and I've mentioned many times in posts how much contempt I have for our politicians. But given the choices we have of Syriza and ND, I could never bring myself to vote for Samaras. You know he is part of the old establishment and it would just be more of the same. So, I can understand why Syriza won the election. If they fail, well, their stay in government will be short and that will be that. In the meantime, let's wait and see how the next couple of months play out. If Tsipras can't deliver and deliver very soon, he is in trouble.

I'm Spartacus!

The last thing the EU want is to have Greece stop using the Euro. Of course, this is just my opinion, as no one can look into a crystal ball and know how the future will play out, but I've always thought Greece leaving the EZ (as opposed to the EU) is their biggest fear. For, if Greece did go back to the drachma and it eventually worked out ok, others will surely follow. We can't know if this would happen, but the EU doesn't want to take the risk. When Papandreou proposed a referendum that was the EU's opportunity to have Greece leave the EZ. Were they happy with his decision ? Instead, he went into a meeting and walked out ashen faced (oh to be a fly on the wall) and the referendum was no more. Again, they could "kick" Greece out now ... but it's not that simple. Legally, it's a minefield as well. I believe Tsipras and Varoufakis know the dread the EU have of Greece going to another currency, and have played the game accordingly. Risky. Very risky! But calculated none the less.

Great to see you back tantra. Missed your posts. Now we just need to get pao2gre back.

@ grkjet, the EU aren't really a big fan of democracy, and if unleashing hell in Greece will serve their purpose, they will do so. It is a monstrous organisation. But I have to agree with you, I am afraid the Greek population will go for the devil they know.

Thanks for the updates all. Will be interesting to see how Tzandaris does at Olympiakos, and if he's part of the main squad or loaned out.

Great news! I must say I am surprised, but I'm not complaining. Given what's happening in Greece I thought this could put some potential players off.

http://yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/01/why-we-recommend-a-no-in-the-referendum-in-6-short-bullet-points/#comments Why we recommend a NO in the referendum ? in 6 short bullet points Posted on July 1, 2015 by yanisv 21 Negotiations have stalled because Greece?s creditors (a) refused to reduce our un-payable public debt and (b) insisted that it should be repaid ?parametrically? by the weakest members of our society, their children and their grandchildren The IMF, the United States? government, many other governments around the globe, and most independent economists believe ? along with us ? that the debt must be restructured. The Eurogroup had previously (November 2012) conceded that the debt ought to be restructured but is refusing to commit to a debt restructure Since the announcement of the referendum, official Europe has sent signals that they are ready to discuss debt restructuring. These signals show that official Europe too would vote NO on its own ?final? offer. Greece will stay in the euro. Deposits in Greece?s banks are safe. Creditors have chosen the strategy of blackmail based on bank closures. The current impasse is due to this choice by the creditors and not by the Greek government discontinuing the negotiations or any Greek thoughts of Grexit and devaluation. Greece?s place in the Eurozone and in the European Union is non-negotiable. The future demands a proud Greece within the Eurozone and at the heart of Europe. This future demands that Greeks say a big NO on Sunday, that we stay in the Euro Area, and that, with the power vested upon us by that NO, we renegotiate Greece?s public debt as well as the distribution of burdens between the haves and the have nots.

It's not my fault he can't post without offending people. His style of posting is reminiscent of a posse who used to post frequently on gs.com but were eventually banned from the site ... Shock therapy ... more like troll therapy. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- But you are right, I maybe took it a bit far calling him a possible Skopian or Turk. I should as you said ... pause, and only post facts that are true. And I can't be certain he's a Skopian or Turk poster who's trolling the site. I do find it difficult to accept his pleasure at the suffering of Greeks. Keep choking 'em! Yeah! And since you're so careful about only posting facts, there must in fact be a war on the ground. More hyperbole and melodrama.

Easy on the hyperbole. Gyros hasn't "attacked" anyone. He stated his opinions, as have I. The guy gets off on the conditions in Greece. As for the Junta, I would vote for them in a heart beat if they had as a policy replacing the Euro with a new currency. Heck, I'd even vote Golden Dawn if that was their policy. That's how badly I feel about Greece's predicament.

- You should have kept reading, you missed the best part ;) - Gyros and I are very different. Take my word for it. - "Greece is a leftist country by Western standards". No s%$#! sherlock. - Were one of your grand parents communists ?

He's waiting for the outcome of the referendum to see if he'll be paid in Euro's or not ;) Seriously, I'd be surprised if any players are signed in the next 10 days or so.

Glykos is fine if you're content with getting 3rd or 4th place in the league. If we want better (and apparently we do), I agree he's not quite there. Good as a backup though, if he's content to play that role.

Akritis, well said. I have added a 3rd option to the vote for those who feel the same way.

You're flailing about all over the place. I have been to Greece but that is besides the point. I do live in a "centrist" country, and again, that is besides the point, but if I don't answer your points, other posters might think you know what you're talking about. As athinaios said in post #413, there is very little difference between the main stream parties in Greece. To me they are the same and had essentially the same policies whether it was PASOK or ND in charge. But when you talk about what is wrong with Greece and how it got that way, you always blame "the left". Always. At least that's the way I perceive your posts. Maybe if you tried being a bit more neutral ...

I agree, I think it's probably 5% on either side that are "hard" core.