PANATHINAIKOS v. oly

[drakos13]

Well, the mere fact that we turned this championship chase into a real thriller is inexcusable enough given the quality of the opposition. Cyber, however, in his infinite wisdom, is right: if we win it in the end, only an idiot would turn a blind eye to the team's problems after this embarassment.

On the other hand, we must not forget that a championship can give the team a huge boost, especially since the champion goes straight to the CL groups next season.

yeah i agree.....but the question is since our PAE has been stupid enough to ignore team issues in the last 4 transfer seasons concerning defense, wouldnt a title give them a false sense of security, just like the +7 or 8 we had in January?

I still want the championship, but this team without improvements definitley won't be enough to take the league next year, or make it out of the CL groups.

I'll be in OAKA for the game against Iraklis. I really hope its a game where we take and celebrate. The question is now does the team have what it takes to not buckle under the pressure even against teams like Atromitos and Iraklis...Because anything except a title will be a disaster of epic proportions at this point.

[Euro2004]

Ubelievable...

Tzorvas again pushing the ball in front of him instead of wide.

I'm glad someone else notices this tragic weakness he has! <_<

We were unlucky tonight but it does raise questions about the psychology of this team. The league should have been over long ago and when we should step up we fold. This has also been the case in Europe. We do the hard work against Roma but flop vs Standard. It's worrying

[cyberfish]

We beat PAOK ARIS and AEK once ... and dominated every single game we lost or drew except karaiskaki...

Would u rather win derbys liek we did in 07 when we beat gavro 2 times and lost the championship by 8 points?

That was with Ten Cate ;)

Nioblias has not beat a team above mid table. Our game has deteriorated to "giourousia" and prayers. The grand plan today was to find Cisse with long balls from Katsourani, or we hoped for a Leto individual effort.

Then you talk about "bad luck" and how we "dominated". If it weren't for Olympiakos chocking in some goofy games and PAOK being just PAOK, we could be in third place by now.

As it turns out, we are not as better than other team in the league. The "good" games this season have been about a handful. I saw our game deteriorating majorly with Nioblias while many fans see improvement. Maybe I am missing something, and maybe I don't know enough about football to appreciate this kind of game. But the facts speak on their own. Nioblias pulls a nice move every other game (usually when we get desperate) but most of the time we look very unimaginative.

We rely on personal player efforts to create and this works well with smaller teams when it's guaranteed our superior personnel will come up with a brilliant play. But against strong and organized opposition this kind of game is suicidal. That's hwy we haven't won a game against strong opponents (yes, you can bring up Roma again but you won't change my mind about the way we play).

I want to see the team working to getting these superior payers into advantageous positions. Not just line them up one on one and hope there will be a string of breakdowns on opposing defenses. The only way we tried this today was with long lobs from Katsourani to Cisse. The announcers said Nioblias gave that instruction to Katsouranis early in the game.

Bandovic took Nioblias' shorts today. Did anyone made a note when he put Derbysir in? When we seemed to be doing better. Then we began taking over the midfield and he puts in Oscar and plugs it up again, leaving our lads exchanging little passes before we gave it away. No discipline whatsoever.

Like I said, it's for the best. It's nice that we won't pay for it. Olympiakos has won plenty of titles without beating us in the season and I am sure they didn't mind. At least now we have a true measurement of who we are.

We are not too far from where we were last season and we can't relax this summer thinking it's going to be any easier next year. If it was just 'bad luck" that has prevented us from beating a team above mid-table (yep, I'll keep repeating it until we do beat one - but we won't have that pleasure this season except maybe in the cup if we make it and Aris crosses paths with us).

We need a coach. Nioblias is a very nice guy and he tries his hardests I am sure. He is also very honest admitting that he makes mistakes and that he is inexperienced.

But Panathinaikos should not be the training ground for talented and unproven coaches or players. At this level, a little loss of concentration costs games and titles. In teams like Aris or PAOK it doesn't matter. Losing a game makes the difference between 3d, 4th, or 5th place. Not much damage. But we need perfection throughout.

I don't blame Tzorvas for today's goal but who lost that header in our box in the goal? Did anyone see us winning a header (I can't remember a single one) in Olympiakos' box. We do need to improve the GK position. with Galinovic leaving we should not be content to bringing in a second string guy. We should bring an equal, if not better than Tzorvas and let the best man win the starting spot.

We also need two CBs. One cross, one lost header, one major loss today.

We have to hand it to Olympiakos. With a decimated team, they came in a packed OAKA and took the game fair and square. We have accumulated 15 years of "complex" and we can't get over it.

Overall, our own complacency and irrational expectations don't help. Every year our fans and reporters act like we will thrush the opponent whenever we play AEK, Olympiakos, and PAOK and just about every year we have to endure the "bad luck" argument more often than not.

[athinaios]

Very disappointing result, on top of many like this one. We will win the title, probably the cup too, but it reminds me of 2004. We had a bad team then too. Next season we faded early and didn't win anything for the next 6 years. [please don't tell me how we beat PAOK in Touba, etc.... lucky breaks]

I hope we learn from this and seriously improve next season because we won't be getting all these gifts again soon.

[pao123]

i dont know if i agree fully..i think because we lost this game we will be overally critical..the team will take the title and people still wont be pleased..personally i didnt think the team looked bad today...i dont think weve looked that bad all season long with the excpetion of afew game..there are things that need to be worked on definitly..i agree pao shouldnt be a training ground for a coach but if we come out with a double, they should get the chance to stay on...nioplias has the right idea but isnt expereinced enough...this half season will give him time to reflect and assess his coaching which i am confident that he will and improve next year, hopefully with a much better defensive unit..if we win it, then we win it and he was a factor...

we lack the cutting edge in the derbies this year but the fact is we have lost points in them over small details, alot of that has to do with careless defending...the team looked good today before we conceeded..we had posession, were pressuring the defense, coming through the wings, winning balls in the midfield, not giving them room and MAKING chances...we hit the post, twice and came close on 4-5 other occasions..they scored, we opened up and panicked then got disorganized...before the goal, they had what, one half chance on goal? we were dominating, at one point i was sure we would win..and this was with one of our midfiedlers player center defense, 2 players who havent playing for months(gabriel, seitaridis) and without a major part of our left side, spyropoulos being out..without him we lack alot on the left going fwd..we dont give leto an outlet to someone who will ship in dangerous crosses and take ppl on to the byline..

we lacked the thru balls down the middle to cisse though..he was nullifeid again and appears very frustrated..he is losing steam alittle..he needs more support from the midfield..players that will open space for him and find him with thru balls..ninis should have started today in my opinion..we sacrificed alittle attack by playing simao to protect our defensive line a bit more, which is understandable..

i dont understand what is it the fans would want to see...a win in a derby yes would be awesome..but in none of them have we really been flat out outplayed..i dont think there is a doubt that we have been the best team in greece this year...with acouple very good signings we tighten our core up alittle and get better next year..if we win the championship is that not enough? we have not beaten some 'big' teams this season but what is our goal really? to beat olympiakos, paok and aek twice or win the championship and cup??

as far as i see it we are still in the front seat for both races so its ok to me...i dont care about olympiakos or paok or standard..i care about seeing a title bc we havent seen one in 6 years and then even longer before that..im sick of finishing in second and third place..lets get these titles be happy and work on improving again next year...

[GreenTitus]

Pao123, you are, of course, partly right. But there are (at least) two different ways in which a team can be so heartbreakingly frustrating. First, you have teams that simply don't have what it takes: poor teams with mediocre players, weak coaches and uninspiring management. PAO has had some of the above in the recent past. Second, you can have a team that has talent, plays decent football from time to time but lacks a couple of things which are so obvious and gross that make the whole thing look surreal if not ridiculous. This the case with this season's PAO: while we have our good moments here and there, while we have an all-in-all good roster, every now and then something happens and ruins the whole thing - be it sloppy play, lack of concentration, bad defensive skills or whatever. For a club that has spent 60 mil in two years and has enjoyed such unquestionable support from the fans this is unacceptable to say the least.

[cyberfish]

I am glad you can keep your cool PAO123, but man, forgive me. I don't understand the "we dominated", "bad luck", "played better" arguments.

Derbies are won or lost on details. It's either a player error, or a coaching error or a referee error. Why did Olympiakos take advantage of these details? How did Derbysir end up in that precice position from starting at the bench? Was it good luck that put him there?

In the last 9 games we are 4-2-3

We beat Larissa, Panionios, Levadiakos, Asteras,

We tied AEK and Aris

We lost to Kavala and PAOK back to back and now to Olympiakos at home.

What kind of football is this? If we just sit back and wait for our "luck" to change, we'll be waiting for Godot.

We need some urgency to get the team higher. Tactically we played horrible today. We had the initiative in midfield but had not real way of getting the ball into the box with a high percentage cross unless it was from individual player efforts. I am tempted to watch the game again just so I can count the lobs towards Cisse.

I will still celebrate the title, but I'd like to see us improving the team for next season and not sitting back saying "we are better", it was a fluke or bad luck.

[NikosVazelas]

That argument can be said for latter years cyber...

We lost points to ergo and serres and iraklis last year or we could of won the title...

In past years we would sit back and playcounter football... practically fall asleep during those games...

Fine.. we lost today.. but we were clearly te more dominant side.. hell look a the game thread.. no one could believe we didnt score..

Its upsetting we lost but this team has made giant strides in the last season.. With a bam CB and a Bam rm next season we will be even better

[pao123]

i agree niko..would you guys rather see the football we played under shoum better? or how about malezani or scazni, munoz? this is the more attractive football we've played in a long time..its not barcelona but its miles better then it has been the last years..

im as pissed as the next person..i have been looking fwd to this game all week, talking about it to everyone..but ive got to stay positive..we are still on the brink of achieving something we havent achieved in years...yes there will be bad moments but i dont see us digressing as a whole, in the bigger picture..we have a great chance to win the double, we need to stick to the task at hand na di dont want the team to shoot themselves in the foot and lose it bc that would be disaster in my eyes..not losing to olympiakos...

[NikosVazelas]

We played offensive football... as opposed to last year with HTC where we played 2 0-0 games in OAKA with AEK and OLY and had maybe 3 chances...

Nioplias has been with the team for 3 months and changed the mindset...

It hasnt panned out yet... but we are a few players away from having a truly dominant team...

[cyberfish]

... well, I erased what I was writing for half hour. It's futile. I am just going to agree because Nikos never lets go without the last word :LOL:

Nioblias has done miracles, our team is so much more offensive than it was with Ten Cate, the players are so relaxed they play their best, we have better conditioning, less injuries, more combination plays, less lobs, better defense, better set pieces, and above all, better results. Mind as well keep going like that. No need to change a thing.

As long as we keep losing like that we'll be fine. We are going to win the title anyway.

[pao123]

... well, I erased what I was writing for half hour. It's futile. I am just going to agree because Nikos never lets go without the last word :LOL:

Nioblias has done miracles, our team is so much more offensive than it was with Ten Cate, the players are so relaxed they play their best, we have better conditioning, less injuries, more combination plays, less lobs, better defense, better set pieces, and above all, better results. Mind as well keep going like that. No need to change a thing.

As long as we keep losing like that we'll be fine. We are going to win the title anyway.

:LOL: :LOL: :LOL:

come on now..dont be like that cyber

[trifilli]

PAO dominated during home games vs AEK, Osfp, Asteras, Kavala, away vs PAOK, Aris, none of which were victories.

Same story vs Satan-dard (no typo).

When this becomes a reoccurring theme, it is no longer a coincidence or bad luck.

PAO defense is very suspect to begin with, and horrific in counter attacks.

Nioplias is a very nice, honest, hard working, ex-PAO player, who has had two good results so far, both vs Roma.

This PAO team on paper, is the strongest since the 2003 team that Tzigger demolished.

It is hard to believe sometimes that PAO has players like Cisse, Gilberto, Kara, Katsourani, Salpi, Nini, and can be so ineffective at times.

We may win the double like in 2004, when Manolis was the hero, but played suspect football under the incompetent Scum (no typo)

Back then we celebrated our best game of the year during the cup final, thrashing osfp 3-1.

Maybe we will enjoy a similar victory vs Aris at this year's cup final.

Either way it will be a lukewarm double if it happens.

My greatest wish however, is that our Greek NT performs equally well in this WC as the last time PAO won the double in 2004.

After all the core of our NT is Panathinaikos and our well rested players may perform miracles once more.

PS: Since the police is unwilling, unable, incompetent, or plainly indifferent about controlling the "fans"... How about using the K9s, or videotaping.

Some morons from all teams, that call themselves fans, do not belong in sports.

No one is willing to take responsibility for their actions, let technology and the dogs take over. This must stop.

The decline of Greece's civilization, is apparent in many forms of society, politics, economy, sports.

This disregard and disrespect for anything and anyone, is becoming a fast spreading virus, that has infected this land and will be it's demise.

The EGO kills ! :tdown:

PEACE

[cyberfish]

very wise words Trifilli. I completely agree on every point, especially about the idiot fans.

A young girl, working for security lost four fingers today trying to clear a "krotida" that she thought it was a flare. It exploded in her hand :(

It's days like these I want to stop watching this league.

[pao123]

i agree with trifilli too except that nioplias has only had 2 good results...nioplias has had alot of good results just not very many GREAT results..

[Euro2004]

Some interesting perspectives here. I'm somewhere in the middle of what everyone is saying. We dominated today, no doubt. If this game was played 10 times in exactly the same way we'd have won 6, 3 draws and 1 defeat in my opinion. I was impressed with the urgency and passion too and I liked the team line up under the circumstances and Kats should remain in defence in my opinion.

However there appears to be a pattern emerging: PAO dominating possession and losing/failing to win games. Cyber is right, this isn't just plain bad luck. Firstly, we rely way too much on Cisse, a guy that may destroy small teams but can't get break-throughs against strong sides. This isn't necessarily merely a criticism of Cisse alone because as Cyber says all we do is loft long balls to him. He won't do anything with that level of poor service. It works against s%$#! teams but well organised teams deal with it. While dealing with this unimaginative play they hit us on the coutner (where we are extremely weak) and they score. This isn't necessarily a critique of today's game, like I said, we should have won but these are problems that clearly exist.

These are potentially BIG problems because winning the double this year would mask our weaknesses in midfield and we won't address them next year. For instance, we hear alot about needing defenders and a "number 10 the level of Cisse" but how about the integral players that are already declining? Katsouranis is an obvious example and Karagounis is aging and slowing down. Also what condition will an aging Gilberto be in after, what is bound to be, a long World Cup for him? That's why Athinaios makes a key point when he says:

it reminds me of 2004. We had  a bad team then too. Next season we faded early and didn't win anything for the next 6 years.

If we don't make numerous signings we'll fade again. In my opinion we look for long balls towards Cisse because our central midfielders don't have the energy levels to get up and down the pitch consistently. We either overly-commit and then get hit on the counter and can't get back in time, or our midfielders don't go forward enough (how many times does karagounis find himself behind simao? same with kats who is simply too unfit and lazy to be a box to box midfielder). Next year these players will find the physical demands even harder. The point is, we have to strengthen over the summer in the way we would if we didn't win anything this season, in other words, significantly! Of course it's not as simple as signing players, we need the coaching staff to sort this. I have faith in Nioblias. He's still learning but i'm willing to give him another season (a full season!) to see how he goes.

One thing is for sure though, this PAO (will win the league) but we scraping a league against the weakest Olympiakos team in years. We still need big improvements and Cyber's observations re: the limitations on the field are spot on. Our weaknesses are not simply limited to a poor defence (despite what the general consensus is) we also need improvements elsewhere. Unfortunately players like Katsouranis are considered to be "stars" so how will they be replaced? answer: they won't!

[adonis]

i agree with cybers point of view

but seriously you have to admit last night was very unlucky also.

salpi hitting the cross bar after nice control from long ball,

cisse's rocket freekick grazing the cross bar (after that drty foul by avraam who btw

salpi was on clear for goal)

cisse hitting inside of post and bouncing out after very nice cross in from ninis (note he scored two similar goals like that chance at larissa and we won 3-0)

leto inside the box with ball on his right foot and can only manage a weak low shot

vyntra, gilberto, salpi all narrowly missing headers off set pieces whipped in

vyntra missing a left footed volley in the box in the second half

gilberto chest and control and inside of the foot placement forces save from nikopolidis

please, if one of those had gone in, just as they had all season it would of been a different game

osfp had nothing except for one nice cross and header/parry/shot goal from derby shire....sure they hit the bar from mitrog*y after we had pushed up heavilu to equalise but the game had changed then..

for me its a poor season to win the title and not beat osfp at least once at home...i feel like the title has been lost by them and paok rather than won by us.

i agree we lack imagination and build up in our plays....why have a midfield if we are to play kats as cb and instruct him to bypass midfield and lob to cisse (although at the start osfp def had a prob with salpi and cisse speed)

[warzycha]

From what I saw being match highlights so it does not reflect the whole game...Pana were unlucky with a few chances and Oly chances came thick and fast when Pana had to chase the game.

But in todays game it is all about taking your chances and at the end of the day they picked up three points and we didn't

My only concern is that I hope Pana do not choke at the last hurdle before the line. They face Atromitos (away), Iraklis (home) and Ioannina (away). These are not easy games by any means but if they lose it from here it would the biggest disaster in Pana history. Next weeks game is crucial, if they pick three points it will make life easier but I have a funny feeling it could come down to the last game of the season. I hope I am wrong and the win the next 2 and things will be over

Oly have Xanthi (home) Panthrakikos (away) and Aris (home)

PAOK are gone even though they have Larissa (away) and then are at home to Kavala and Ergotelis.

So there is still a lot to play for and nothing is won until it is won

[billyzaf]

I completely agree with adonis and disagree with cyber.

Surely the team has lots of weaknesses but overall we play domination football.

Panathinaikos always has the initiative. Lots of chances missed.

Defence is our weak spot which is a crucial one.

But I think that this team plays a lot better under Noblias than Ten Cate.

If you remember the last games under ten cate we played intolerable football.

Also yesterday we missed our full backs (spyropoulos), vintra on the right wing. Seitaridis didn't have to offer much.

Olympiakos played a counterattack defense game. Like the one we played 2-3 years ago (2007 under munoz) when salpigidis stole from anatolakis and papadopoulos scored our only chance in the game. Olympiakos had dominated all the game and had lost lots of classical chances. Same story yesterday but with different colours.

Guys this team has great potential. Defence is a weak spot and i think our midfielders will play a more attacking football if they trust their defence more.

I believe next year will be a great one.

P.S. Nobody actually remembers the 0-1 of 2007 in Karaiskaki. But everyone remembers the championship of osfp. That's the way history records things. Games fade out, but the titles are remembered.

So chin up guys!

[pao123]

http://www.sentragoal.gr/article.asp?catid...2&pubid=7502416

i think alot of what he says is very correct...

[pao123]

http://www.sportdog.gr/v3/article.aspx?id=127510

;)

[athinaios]

I've said what I had to say earlier about our performance and the position PAO is in.

But, I just wanted to add that I had the sense if one of our clear chances had gone in, the floodgates would open. Milimeters one way and the ball is in. Maybe I'm dreaming, but I honestly thought if PAO scored 1 then 2 and 3 wouldn't be a problem.

I haven't looked at statistics, but I'm willing to bet, in other games with similar chances (or attemts at goal) the ball went in... The Roma games come to mind.

Anyway, Schum was the worst coach along with that Swedish guy.

[pao123]

hans backe? hahah

he coachs the newy york red bulls now :LOL:

[Genome]

[athinaios]

Oh, splendid. That's really helpful. Nice work,....

:angry: