Dean97

Karagounis was fine and so was Salpingidis. Age is not a problem once again. It's performance is what counts. Fortounis can be useless at 25 and I would say the same thing about him. The players that played against Saudi Arabia were proven not ready for the national team. I was the first one to say on these forums that Lazaros nt career hasn't been that good. 1 goal in life 30 matches isn't a massive achievement. I've explained why a player like Gianniotas has talent and there is a reason why he has 2 goals in 8 matches. I agree going back to a defensive style we improved. But you can't just rely on the defence to get you out of trouble all the time. We need a midfielder who can handle the ball well and have presence. Samaris has failed here in my opinion but didn't make many mistakes defensively. I like him though and I think he deserves another chance. I remember thinking when Katsouranis was around and the same time when we were playing Tziolis as well, I was thinking, we have better players than these guys in Samaris, Kone, Tachtsidis and Lazaros. Now we are asking for players like Kourbelis and Galanopoulos instead of Samaris. There is nothing wrong in saying to change players. If something doesn't work, try something else. Pelkas is more of a 10 or second striker. Most of his games were from the number 10. He did play games on the wing but he was more consistent behind the striker.

Is Lamprou going to be loaned out? Is he in the plans of the coach?

That's what I hoped for too. But when I saw them play against Saudi Arabia I was dissapointed. Maybe we shouldn't criticize those players after 1 game. But they all looked like they were not ready for the national team.

That is really unfortunate...

Is this guy good? I have never watched him play. I hear a lot of good things though.

Ranieri changed everything in one hit. You can't go from one extreme to another and thats what he did. We can't play too defensive either. Look at where that got us... Tziolis can't play anymore. He couldn't play since 2012. This is when I believe he started to drop. Tachtsidis dissapointed hugely and so did Samaris in these wc qualifiers. You say Lazaros shouldn't be in the team... Why not? You say that we all said to get rid if Kara/Kats back then. Lazaros is different to players like Kats/Kara/Tzioli/Maniati. You can't compare those players to Lazaros. Can't you see the difference in talent and ability? I'm not even sure if you watch football because your saying to me Tziolis provides good things for the team and Lazaros is too old and also denying his talent or form. Age shouldn't be a problem. We all said Kats/Tzioli/Maniati/Tzavellas shouldn't only because they are slow and not good enough anymore, also there are young players who have more ability and most importantly are fast. Ive always liked Karagounis even when he played his last game at 37. He still had it. You could also see him running everywhere and with high intensity in his late 30s. I also wanted to say the game has changed lately. You can't have too many slow midfielders in midfield.

All I know is that Tzavellas weaknesses outweighs his strengths. We've got many players who can take free kicks such as Fortounis and Lazaros. Stafylidis scores most of his goals from free kicks. At left back Tsimikas, Koutris, Stafylidis, Lykogiannis and Bakakis can play there. It's time we move on from Tziolis, Maniatis and Tzavellas. We have Torosidis, Sokratis and Lazaros for the experience. We need players that can play forward and with creativity. I'm tired of seeing back passes, slowness and losing possession. To remove this we start by getting players who can play forward, keep possession and move into space. We need to stop playing it safe and start try to push for more goals. Tachtsidis and Samaris have let us down these past 4 years. I don't know who we should play exactly but it wouldn't hurt to change it around. Galanopoulos has played many games for Aek in both Europe and domestic. Give him the freedom and he has got the ability and talent to make something happen.

All I was trying to state was that Ninis with the ball can do things that our current players can't. It's a shame that his career has turned it out the way it was. Also why not talk about Ninis in this thread? I don't think he deserves to be put in the starting 11 right now because that would be unfair to other more hardworking players. Now if people want to be fixated on that he hasn't played consistent minutes since 2012 than thats fine. But do we all agree when Ninis has played and with his abilities he far better than most of our players on the ball? Torosidis is passed it in my opinion. He can't do the job at right back anymore. He has gone slower and not the player he was. There is a lot of people here who don't like putting players in other positions and I respect that. But why not try and be a little open minded? Why not try different things? Why should we be so quick to s%$#! on different ideas, who are you a coach? Where all fans at the end of the day. We want the best for this team. But I pinch a nerve about Ninis and suddenly Ive lost my mind.? In the other forum we speak with an open mind and we don't attack people with silly comments and try to offend someone. We talk like mature people and discuss opinions with no harsh attacks. Who is anybody to talk down on anyone for their opinion. There are many people who agree about what Ninis can bring to the table. Fetfatzidis too. It's absolute criminal that Fetfatzidis hasn't playedfir the national team since 2015. He had a better goal to game ratio than Mantalos. Here are the facts for players in the national team: Ninis: 32 appearances 3 goals Fetfatzidis: 25 appearances 3 goals Gianniotas: 8 appearances 2 goals Now let's go to our current players. Fortounis: 33 appearances 3 goals Mantalos: 19 appearances 2 goals Bakasetas: 13 appearances 0 goals Lazaros: 32 appearances 1 goal As you can see Ninis and Fortounis are nearly neck and neck with the same amount of goals but Ninis with 1 less appearnce. The most effective looks like Ninis by one game. But you can say it's even. Fetfatzidis beats all 4 of our current options due to less games and more goals. Gianniotas and Mantalos share 2 goals each. With Gianniotas proving to be more effective with 11 less games. Lastly Lazaros has 32 appearances with only 1 goal and he is 32 years old! Ninis, Fetfatzidis and Gianniotas have had the same or less amount of games with more goals and are younger! Ninis, Fetfatzidis and Gianniotas have proven over the years that they are more effective than our current midfielders/attackers. Also with Ninis possibly returning to the GSL and Fetfatzidis already at Olympiakos we could see them back in the near future. Also Gianniotas might be playing in la liga. If our current 4 can start scoring goals than Ninis and co don't have to be included in these discussions. Fitness and game time is an issue with Ninis but when he returns for the new season he should be ready. Also no excuse for Fetfatzidis not getting chosen now.

Of course you need hard work to go further. Ninis didn't work hard and was not smart enough to move to la Liga many years ago. Go look at his instagram and tell me he has lost the desire. Yes he was touted as the next big thing at 16 and that might of gone to his head but it doesn't mean he has given up playing professionally. Look at the way he plays. I don't know how he has been playing over the last year but I know a good friend of mine who used to be on this forum agreed that he would play Ninis and Fetfatzidis right now in this team. How can you call Fetfatzidis fat? Just because he played in Saudi it means he shouldn't play for the national team? Comon. I also remember you talking about Gianniotas and saying that he doesn't deserve to be in the starting 11 but whenever he has played he done more than Bakasetas and Mantalos put together on the wing. But no we will disregard his talent and work ethic on the pitch because we have so "better" hardworking players in the team right? What has Tachtsidis, Samaris, Fortounis, Mantalos, Mitroglou, Tziolis, Bakaestas done? We haven't made a tournament in 4 years! Our goals come mainly from set pieces and not much attacking play. Yet we have enough better talent than Gianniotas, Ninis and Fetfatzidis. We have always counted on our defence to win matches. Always. We never had good attacking talent that can save us and carry the team like a Ronaldo, Messi, Zidane, Ronaldo or Modric. We are not gifted with a lot of good skillful and attacking talent like the rest are. Lazaros is average at best when it comes to the national team. Pelkas is being integrated slowly. I have high hopes for him. Karnezis was not a starter week in and week out. Mitroglou missed half a season, Retsos is one and is young and Donis had a few injuries but still did well for himself. Sokratis and Manolas play week in and week out and are the teams best players. Their teams rely on them. You can't say that for the majority of our players. That's a fact. Ninis attitude is something separate to his talent. He doesn't have the right attitude and that backfired on him. Same goes for Fetfatzidis. You blamed Gianniotas because he played in the second division in Spain? At least that is better than Saudi Arabia and Israel, right? Can you tell me a game where either of those 3 played bad for the national team? If anything they all had more good matches than bad. I can think of numerous games where Bakasetas, Fortounis and Mantalos didn't play well or were very average. Games against Bosnia, Estonia Belgium come to memory. We should'nt be so quick on axing players from our plans so easy. We need to give them chance after chance becuaee of that natural talent they posses what they could for our national team. Donis is still young and has time and at the moment he is not doing bad for himself. Fortounis against better opposition shits himself. There are other games where he is doing nothing and is not motivated. He is not that fast either. I hope for players like Androutsos, Limnios, Lamprou and Manthatis to exceed expectations. All I'm saying is that there is some talent in our team, but there are some players who have God gifted talent which unfortunately due to a bad mindset and also Greek media shitting on them for being "lazy or too short" are not wanted and want players like Tziolis and Tzavellas instead. I have never seen the Greek media s%$#! on Tziolis, I am still waiting for that day to happen. Out football setup is absolute trash and you can see why with the national team selections.

He is no where near "Greek Superleague level". Are you kidding me? He has toned down from over the years that's because of his decision making. But you are saying his talent is not even worthy of the superleague? We are talking about talent here. I said Tziolis hasn't got it anymore. Yet still gets chosen. All i said was for Ninis to play again and get in form again then he will be in the team. A long time ago a former poster of this site posted highlights of Ninis in a Panathinaikos Jersey in 2015 or 2016 where he clearly pointed out how a midfielder should pass the ball. He was clearly outlining why our current midfielders such as Samaris, Maniatis and Tziolis are at such a low level when making a long, clever and correct pass. Also pointing out why we lose matches in national team. It's because our midfielders don't have the football IQ of Ninis. We are writing Ninis off because where he has played. Tziolis is captain and playing in the Saudi League. So the league you play in shouldn't matter then. When Ninis is in form he is clearly on another level compared to Mantalos, Samaris and so on. His form and descison making have caused him to play in Israel and now he is looking for a club. Fetfatzidis played at Saudi and we were saying he needs to be in the national team regardless of the league he plays in. Katsouranis was 34 when we were saying for him to step down. He should of retired at 33 not 37. I've never said Karagounis to retire as he was always playing up to standards at the age he was. We were always wanting new blood in midfield and we still are. I'm not all in for Torosidis at CDM. But he can't do it anymore at rb in my opinion. He still deserves to be a part of the team. Georgelaz has stated saying we should try Torosidis at CDM. He could be used as a sub if need be. He can score the odd goal here or there. If you remember Ninis was in form when he came back to PAO. He was then called up after. He then moved to Belgium and did well for himself if you look at his best moments. Can one of you tell me apart from Sokratis and Manolas, who is competing at a top level week in and week out from our talent pool that should be a lock in the team? I'll wait... Samaris? Tachtsidis? Stafylidis? Fortounis?. The Greek superleague is top level right? It isn't. Retsos and Donis are young and are doing well for themselves in a high level league. Most of our "starting players" now are playing in the superleague. Eg. Torosidis, Lazaros, Pelkas, Mantalos, Fortounis, Bakasetas and now Fetfatzidis. Tziolis in Saudi and Tachtsidis is clubless. Ninis and Fetfatzidis have a higher football IQ of Greek players but are not intelligent enough to go beyond in their careers. Imagine if they did though...

If you don't consider the club he plays, would you argue with him being in the team? Tziolis on the other plays for a s%$#! club and is a s%$#! player. Ninis is a free agent and is definitely not a bad player. His career didn't turn out the way we wanted it to but the talent is still there. His passing and vision shits on Tziolis. He has better technique than Fortounis and can has great ball control and is clever. He can also play 1 touch like Fetfatzidis. But the only thing is he is not as fast as he use to be. I hope he plays in the superleague this season and shows form...

Like what bananas said, Skibbe/Tsanas chose players off the clubs they play for not based on ability or playing time. Galanopoulos played more games last season than Samaris but because Samaris plays for Benfica he gets chosen. I actually like Samaris but we have used him the past 4 years and we havent qualified. Unless I must be missing something. Tachtsidis and Tziolis are too slow and have been used the past 4 years. With both having 1 good game each. Against Belgium and Cyprus. I can't remember another game where they played very well. Saying that Tziolis can pass and has vision must be a joke. Yeah maybe in 2007 but from 2010 and to now he has been useless, very slow and only makes sideward or backward passes. There a better players. Zeca has been an upgrade to this team. Mostly based on his work rate off the ball. His hunger and spirit has helped this team. Androutsos and Galanopoulos I don't think are the answer now but the next person tried should be Kourbelis. Similar to Zeca and has had experience playing alongside him. You can't go wrong in the first match against Estonia by playing them together. On to our fullbacks. This is another question mark. We need to have someone solid defensively in that position. The reason I say this is because our talented Cbs are always covering for them when they get beaten or Zeca has to cover also. Stafylidis and Bakakis are not that strong physically. Retsos could work out there. Lykogiannis aswell. Our midfield and fullback positions should be given more attention. The goal keeper is Karnezis, Sokratis and Manolas have it at Cb, Fortounis or Mantalos should start as the number 10, while Lazaros and Donis are on the flanks with Mitroglou up front. Torosidis should be a squad player. I don't know if has the lungs anymore. Tziolis should be out, while Samaris and Tachtsidis are on the bench.

I know but with the national team he looks toned down for some reason.

I agree 100% about the first paragraph. But I don't think any of our current midfielders are the answer. I hate to say it but Kourbelis is very average. Definitely better than Tziolis and who isn't. Zeca definately needed in midfield. Question marks are for who plays next to him. We haven't qualified for a major tournament in 4 years with Tziolis, Tachtsidis and Samaris. I'll let that sink in for a second. I also miss Samaras but I believe Donis will hold down the fort on the wing for many years to come, I'm counting on it. Mitroglou is the only striker we have really. That should definitely be a concern. Karelis is like Kyriakos, very injury prone. The only other possible option is Manos and then again who knows what happens with him in the long term. Douvikas is an up and coming player who we should keep an eye on. Only 18 and wanted by many clubs abroad, especially la liga. I just hope our future generation surpasses our current group of players. Players like Kampetsis, Douvikas, Michelis, Mandas, Antzoulas, Kyriakopoulos and so on should be playing senior football week in and week out so that they become something more than our current group. Watch Fetfa getting call ups soon. Not that he doesn’t deserve it, but if you’re going to call him up now then you should’ve called him up earlier. This was said brilliantly.

I sort of understand why Lazaros would be first choice but I don't think it's should be set in stone. Fetfatzidis is by far the most talented in terms of skill, pace and dribbling. I don't think Lazaros is that good but I would still put him in the team. We also have Pelkas coming off a very good season.

Fortounis and Mantalos can alternate their. Also we have Pelkas. What Skibbe should be doing is playing Fetfatzidis on the wing, that's for sure.

I don't know how he would fit in the team because Elabdeloui and Masouras have the right back position covered. Tsimikas and Koutris have the left as well as Hajisafi. He might play a different position now that he has gotten older. So we might see him in a CDM role.

All i know is there are better and we are not utilising them. We can't rely on him. His hasn't got quality anymore. He is also too slow. He did do ok against Egypt and Bosnia but all the other games he made a lot of mistakes. Anyway we know this and it's time for him to hang up the boots for the national team.

I don't know but if someone can back me up on this but I remember Skibbe said Tziolis played very well but I can't remember which game. Tziolis has never had a good game for the Ethniki. Skibbe is In my opinion is a yes man to someone. Playing Zeca, Mantalos, Stafylidis and Bakasetas means he is not confident enough to play the right people for that position. It's understandable that you want to play Mantalos and Fortounis in the same 11 but Zeca doesn't have to be in the wing. What wrong with playing Pelkas on the wing or Gianniotas against Croatia in the 1st leg. That's just an example.

I don't think Tsanas was the reason for poor selection in my opinion. I believe Skibbe made those call ups and I still think we will see the same old s%$#! with him. I hope I'm wrong.

I think the Ninis story has to be the most tragic. Very gifted player, similar to Iniesta. Had excellent ball control with very good passing. Another player who I rated was Andreas Tatos. Could never fit into Olympiakos, he for sure had talent.

What ashame. Probably the most gifted defender we've had but because of injury he is half the player he was. I honestly think if he didn't get injured all these years he would be better than Sokratis and Manolas and be playing for Manchester United or Barcelona FC.

Every time Fetfatzidis has performed for the national team he always out performed most players in the team. He has this talent that no other Greek has. His quick feet and excellent dribbling is needed and can play one touch. He has the best first touch in my opinion. He is technical and very skillful and create something out of nothing. The only thing he needs to work on its his shooting. His height doesnt help him in aerial battles but his speed and technique overshadows that.

@Rockafeller Skank why do you think Skibbe keeps on picking Tziolis instead of choosing Kourbelis or Galanopoulos? I'd like to know. If Tziolis is used to slow the game down then he should come on in the last 5 minutes like he did against Belgium. Not play a full 90.

I agree @J1078 wingers need to be wide so out midfielders can have space to run into. Then in defence they close in. Santos and Rehaggel were also defensive minded and we saw more success with them than Skibbe obviously. I wouldnt mind going 3 at the back it's just that who ever is wingback needs to have the motor of running the sideline continuously. I don't think we have someone like that. I had high hopes about Kone too. After that world cup the team went downhill quick. I had high hopes for Samaris too and instead the whole team dissapointed. All I know is Donis can become a threat for us. He must be in the starting line up. We just need balance like you said, but deep down I want us to have the balls to go forward and have more players go forward and create scoring chances.