Panathinaikos-Standard Liege

[pao123]

its probably mostly media hype..they prob beefed it up to sound worst...typical greek media bs, one loss and the find all sorts of 'problems' within a team...happends to all the major teams and its no good...leto has a bit of an attitude, we all knew this bu they are professionals and its probably not really a big deal...

if he scores vs asteras im sure he'll celebrate with the whole team and the coaches...just like after him and karagounis got into this 'HUGE' argument and they celebrated together after he assisted the other ones goal..just like every other time this has happend

[andrew_g]

There are some interesting historical parallels between this game and our season in the UEFA 87-88. We beat Juventus, then when brimming with confidence we lost 5-2 to Honvent of Hungary, then we beat them 5-1 only to lose to club Brugges of Belgium in the quarterfinals.

This was a very badly managed game. Why put in Rukavina? Why take out Karagounis, Spyropoulos, and Salpi? Ninis and Karagounis were a lethal combo against Roma? Surprising the other team is not a bad strategy, but not surprising them by bringing a bunch of second string players.

I still think it can be done in Belgium. PAO is better and we can win 3-0.

A

[athinaios]

Would you guys be happy with a win and advancement against Liege but a loss to gavro?

I think if PAO scores and early goal, and is up 2-0 by end of first half, it might be worth pursuing this goal in the second and try harder.

It's only 3 days later that we'll have to face gavroi. It's a derby, we're better, but anything can happen.

On the other hand, if Aris beats PAOK, then we may have the comfortble margin to spend lots of energy in Belgium.

[drakos13]

Would you guys be happy with a win and advancement against Liege but a loss to gavro?

I think if PAO scores and early goal, and is up 2-0 by end of first half, it might be worth pursuing this goal in the second and try harder.

It's only 3 days later that we'll have to face gavroi. It's a derby, we're better, but anything can happen.

On the other hand, if Aris beats PAOK, then we may have the comfortble margin to spend lots of energy in Belgium.

Absolutley not. :huh: A title and beating OSFP in a packed stadium is FAR better than progressing to the final 8 of the EUROPA League AKA UEFA Cup.

Honestly its been 1 title in 14 years...Lets just focus on that. Moderat European sucess that the world doesnt care about will always be there. Its time to start being champions.

Besides the title is MORE than just a cup this year. Its an automatic CL spot (2nd place will likely end up in Europa league-- thats the new reality). And seriously - who wants playoffs? Who wants Superleague playoffs, who wants CL playoffs?

Isnt anybody sick of all that 2nd place garbage? I really am.

Besides, i give us a 1/30 shot of actually being able to pull of a comeback anyways.

It will be away, and under the circumstances that we DONT conceed a goal, we need 3. We've conceeded 18 goals in 9 games vs decent european opponents (i exclude Dinamo and Sturm who are crap). Thats out of hand.

Scoring 3 away from is unlikley on its own, 4 even more so.

And everybody seems to (always) forget that 3-4 is only good assuming that this RUBBISH defense does not conceed. And thats quite a far fetched assumption.

You combine those likelihoods and you get something EXTREMELY unlikely chance of going through--- and who cares, its OVER.

And if we do go through? Big deal we go to the final 8......and then what? We play a Marseille, Liverpool, Juventus, Wolfsburg, and go home eventually anywyas.

Its Europa League. Put as many fancy branding and theme songs around it, its still the UEFA Cup and its still worthless unless you make it to the Final itself. PAO's season has been all about conceeding goals lets not kid ourselves the team was never going to make the final.

If PAOK drops points we've got all the more reason to make sure we beat the piss out of OSFP.

I hope to see in Liege:

------------------------Karnezis------------------

Seitaridis--------Bjarsmyr-----Sariegui-------Darlas

Gabriel--------Clayton-----Simao--------Lazaros

----------Petropoulos---------Rukavina

[Genome]

Besides the title is MORE than just a cup this year. Its an automatic CL spot (2nd place will likely end up in Europa league-- thats the new reality).

Exactly because Greek teams in the past didn't care enough about their performances in Europe.

[Euro2004]

This was completely unacceptable. Disgusting performance with the same weaknesses that we've had all season. I'd like to see what the anti-ten cate, pro-Nioblias groups have to say about the goals we conceded today? 2 on the counter. Just like Galatasary, just like Atletico, Prague, Kavala, etc.

On numerous occassions today we were in a position where our 2 centre-backs were so high up that they were on the half way line and the full backs no where to be seen. Are they kidding us? All it takes is one long ball over the top and we're going to get ripped. We do not have the individual pace or collective unity to play such a high line. This should have been the first thing Nioblias addressed because it was such a clear weakness.

On an individual note, nobody played well. Karagounis showed heart but looked dead after the 53rd min (he was on for 8 mins!) raising huge questions about the teams fitness. Salpi also showed heart but he was ineffective.

Everyone else deserves major criticism. Gilberto was appalling as was the entire backline. Ninis didn't do anything right. Leto was dumb. Cisse isolated and anonymous and Simao didn't do his job properly either. While, Darlas and Galinovic should not be part of this squad anymore.  We've thrown away our best chance of success in Europe we reached the semi final of the uefa cup.

:tdown:  :tdown:

I'm not sure what you mean, the defense was also in the realm of completely unacceptable and horrendous under Ten Cate. :huh: Its been a pretty embarassing European season for us, Roma aside.

I have to agree with everything else. Darlas needs to be off the team. Galinovic this should be his last game wtih PAO. Its seriously better that Karnezis plays in Liege.

One error, we were only last in the semi finals in 95---and that was the CL B)

We did get very close in the Final 8 lost to Mourinho's FC Porto in OT back in 2002 or 2003...I honestly beleive that matchup should have been the UEFA Cup Final, PAO was the only real competition FC Porto had that year, and we were just having horrid luck to lose to them.

As for the 2nd match with Liege, theres absolutley no reason to take it seriously. Its not worth blowing the game with OSFP over, especially when we concede like an open gate, theres not really any chance of winning 3-0 or 4-1, and it wouldnt be worth the effort and risk injury before playing OSFP (winner goes through to the quarterfinals--not exactly super important), which we really want that win more than anything. Especially seeing how rough the last game got with tackles, it'd be tragically stupid to put our best on the field to go for a mission impossible so we can go to the final 16 of EUROPA league. Its really no difference.

Seeing how terrible we'd been in Europe this season, reaching the Final 16 was about as high as my expecations could have been anyways had you asked back in the Fall.

What I'm saying is that we haven't seen an improvement despite everyone hailing Nioblias as the best thing since sliced bread. We sitll have major weaknesses that haven't been addressed and i'm also seeing new problems emerging. This team is nowhere near as fit/well conditioned as Ten Cate's team. Karagounis was dead after 8 mins of coming on. Anyone that has a recording of the game go and see the 53rd min and see what he was doing.

I meant to say "our best chance since we reached the uefa cup semi" but i accidently forgot the "since" :)

I agree with you about ignoring the 2nd leg. Just give all the kids a run out and ask them to show what they can do. It's a lost cause and the title and CL depend on the Oly game, although after today's result against PAS dare I say that our biggest rival is PAOK ;)

[andrew_g]

I hate to disagree but the whole world looks at the Greek championship with mild derision, it's Europe that's taken seriously. Turkish soccer was not taken seriously until Gala won the Uefa Cup. The press always lauds PAO as being better than Olympiakos because they give it their best shot when playing in Europe. They can win a 100 championships in a row, just let them tell me the last time they made it to the semis of a European competition.

[drakos13]

What I'm saying is that we haven't seen an improvement despite everyone hailing Nioblias as the best thing since sliced bread. We sitll have major weaknesses that haven't been addressed and i'm also seeing new problems emerging. This team is nowhere near as fit/well conditioned as Ten Cate's team. Karagounis was dead after 8 mins of coming on. Anyone that has a recording of the game go and see the 53rd min and see what he was doing.

I meant to say "our best chance since we reached the uefa cup semi" but i accidently forgot the "since" :)

I agree with you about ignoring the 2nd leg. Just give all the kids a run out and ask them to show what they can do. It's a lost cause and the title and CL depend on the Oly game, although after today's result against PAS dare I say that our biggest rival is PAOK ;)

I concur. Nioplias isnt really doing anything special, though to be fair, I like Nioplias more as a personality, he is less arrogant, and I think he's better with the players based on pure media perception only.

Of what I see he's done better with young players ------ Lazaros in particular is dramatically improved under anything he was with Ten Cate. Not sure if thats Nioplias credit.

But yes overall the team is pretty much not improved. This is Nioplias first job managing a club team afterall. a u21 national team that has what 15 training sessions a year is not seriously major experience. its a whole different world.

The defense is still horrendously weak, and thats 100% Pateras and Co's fault because this has been neglected for 4 transfer seasons despite being a high priority - EMERGENCY for the team. If they dont get serious this summer, than well be humiliated in the UCL next year.

[NikosVazelas]

The defence was always horrendously weak.... That wont change with a manager change...

And people say the team is not as fit.. well thats normal..Its Mid March now as opposed to november when HTC was here. We are still in all tree competitions whereas last year at this time we were out of the league, cup and europe.

And people complain about Nioplias results... as opposed to HTC sayin no way HTC would of lost t PAOK and not beaten AEK in OAKA.

Really?

Well in the first round, we took 2 shots vs AEK and won on a fluke goalby Salpi.

Agaisnt PAOK, we needed an 80th minute goal to win a HOME game.

Agaisnt Aris, we needed a 82nd minute goal to scrape by.

Agaisnt asteras, we needed a a 78th min TYING goal by Cisse.

94th min TYING goal vs Kavala.

Not to mention the disasters vs Sparta,atletico and Galata.

With Nioplias, we dominate almost every single game. Hell we even had the upper and against Roma, whom we would of never beaten wit HTC

we had a bad game vs Kavala. we lost. No excuses. But we dominated both Aris and AEK and were unlucky not to win. with paok they had 3 chances and scored 2 goals. Im not using excuses but luck is very intergral. Had we scored ont he first half post by Kara in Toumba we would be champions now.

We had a bad start vs St. Liege but the first two goals were horrible Galinovic errors. We had to open up after that . No choice. all ST.Liege did was counter.

the final scoreline means nothing. 1-2 or 1-3... too late.... Had we scored first we would of beat them easily....

We score a lot more with Nioplias and no game is out of reach.

We have scored 4goals twice, 3 goals 5 times and 2 goals three times...

And drakos, in the 9 games with 18 goals agaisnt in europe... we also scored 14.. so anythign can happen... we need to score 3 and not give up more then 1.... Anythign is possible....

EITHER WAY... I WANT THE CHAMPOIONSHIP this season...

That was our goal from day 1 in Ergotelis... and tomorrow a big step can be made in Tripoli.... Gavroville

[drakos13]

And drakos, in the 9 games with 18 goals agaisnt in europe... we also scored 14.. so anythign can happen... we need to score 3 and not give up more then 1.... Anythign is possible....

That doesnt change the fact that the defense is absolutley disgraceful --- we really are conceeding 2 a game. Even at home, too. Its totally unacceptable for our team.

Yes, its possible. Its also possible that I flip a coin 40 times and it turns out to be heads each single time.

Scoring I know we can score....I DO beleive our team can score 3 in belgium. It wouldnt be likely, but were capable of it (if we play our very best and focused) because were very good offense. BUT that implies that WE also hold them to zero. and the two combined produce an extremley unlikely scenario, that isn't worth risking players over because its a Europa Round of 16 game and really, its quite unimportant a game. Beating OSFP AND winning the titel, AND going to the CL are things that really are worth taking absolutley every precaution to ensure, and if it means not chasing an unlikely result so we can delay elimination in the Europa League, than absolutley.

[Euro2004]

I hate to disagree but the whole world looks at the Greek championship with mild derision, it's Europe that's taken seriously. Turkish soccer was not taken seriously until Gala won the Uefa Cup. The press always lauds PAO as being better than Olympiakos because they give it their best shot when playing in Europe. They can win a 100 championships in a row, just let them tell me the last time they made it to the semis of a European competition.

Although you're correct about the the need to perform in Europe in order to gain recognition, the fact is the changing face of modern football forces us to prioritise winning the league, ultimately because of money. If this match was for a place in the final, by all means go for it. I'm not employing a defeatest attitude because like you i would rather win the UEFA Cup than the league, but the fact is even if we make it to the last 8 the odds are very much stacked against us making the final. Liverpool, Valencia, Wolfsburg, and Juventus are some of the teams left in this competition so it would still have been very, very tough.

If we give everything and still go out of the Europa league, which would still be most likely as we'd have to win 0-3 in Belgium (a feat that not even Arsenal managed) and because of it we're tired and lose to Olympiakos then finishing 2nd or even 3rd in the league is possible. Unfortunately, the new systemn of CL qualification means that the odds of Greek runners-up making the CL are pretty slim. There's so much more money in the CL than the Europa League that it is essential that we qualify for the CL. Because of this we have to win the league.

Drakos, I agree with everything you say. I just want to add though that it isn't just the backline that's poor defensively, we're poor defensively as a unit, particularly when high up the pitch and being hit on the counter. This is because the midfield are always poorly positioned, or simply not athletic enough to get back. So it's not just individual limitations but collective defensive anarchy which is causing us problems. This is where I blame Nioblias. So like you I like him as a personality and I believe he has potential so I'm not calling for his head or anything like that, but he needs to start noticing our limitations otherwise one would have to conclude that he isn't a good enough manager.

Nikosvazelas, Karagounis wasn't tired as in not fresh, he was shattered! He was bent over, hands on knees and fighting for breath. Katsouranis also has a gut and a half.

[cyberfish]

Beautifully said Euro. Really the title is very attainable right now and after this loss to standard we need to put everything we have into winning it.

One nice thing with Nioblias is that there is less friction with the fans. If Ten Cate had lost that game, in such way against Standard, the majority of the fans would be up in arms to get his head with no regard to how it would affect the team. At least now the reasonable ones (like you) get their critique in without extremes and the rest are just happy they don't see Ten Cate any more.

Beautifully said about our defense too. Playing the defense so high requires an incredible amount of work from everyone to make sure opponents don't get a clean forward pass. It also requires that the lines stay tight together, and the passing to be carefully measured so we don't lose the ball and find 5 or 6 of our players behind the flow of play.

Also, on the "conditioning" issue, I think ti's natural that some of the older (and surely more slacking-in-practice Greek players) would show signs of wear. We are pushing upwards of 40 games so far, and we've been relying on the same squad for the past few months and on a game that relies on players carrying the ball ALOT and some covering a lot of ground. Karagounis especially has become Tiramola covering from deep to high and from wide left to wide right.

Anyway, my big fear is that we have yet to beat a team that features above mid-table (Roma is the bright spot but we only got browny points from these games). I hope we end this with a nice win against Olympiakos next week.

[trifilli]

I was at the game...

My fears and concerns became true in the form of a nightmare, that I and millions of PAO fans, had to endure Thursday night.

Was disgusted with Galinovic, the PAO defense, and Nioplia's decision (although I think the message comes from above).

This Sunday PAO has the chance of trashing gauro.

Also APO has the duty to it's glorious European history to win at Liege.

If APO do not beat gauro by at least two, hopefully three, it will be a championship lost from giro, NOT won from PAO.

I may be very disappointed with our loss to Liege, because it was easily preventable, but I really believe a team like PAO does not choose games.

I know that CL groups mean millions of guaranteed euros, and that is the main reason behind first place in the league.

For years I have been a proponent of the European games.

APO has given us fans more joy than any other Greek team, in Europe.

APO will win the league, will go to the CL groups, and if lucky and good, may go through as second. What next, another Greek league?

Another CL group another exit from Europe?

I know I am in the minority, but it is a matter of preference and taste, to which as the Romans said "in the matters of taste there is no dispute".

I still prefer ONE great European showing, over 13 Greek championships!...

My priority is not to brag to the reds that PAO is the team in Greece, rather than to know that my team PAO has been the best representative of Greek football, with some amazing results that even the most optimistic Greek fan could not dream of.

0-1 at Porto, Ajax, Hamburg, Inter. 0-2 at Schalke, 1-3 at Glasgow, 0-3 at Bremen. 2-3 at Roma plus too many more to mention.

PAO needs two 3-0 wins this coming week to make us ecstatic, if I had to chose ONE however it would be at Liege.

PEACE

[cyberfish]

who is PAO :unsure:

[trifilli]

Typo Cyber :o

APO=PAO

Unable to edit my post. :(

PEACE

[athinaios]

Are you two guys drunk?? :P

:LOL:

[cyberfish]

who is durnk? :LOL:

[NikosVazelas]

Hey guys.. whats up?

Just had me a few beers and gonna watch reruns of SUPERGOAL.

[cyberfish]

ha ha it sounds like fun.

I am watching Athlitiki kyriaki reruns while I am trying to figure out a good formation that will give us the 0-3 win in Belgium.

no guarantees of course, and no coach can really game-plan a 3-0 score without risking conceding a couple. But you never know. Let's say we go up and score a couple by 16 out of nowhere (like they did), then it's a game. Wishfull thinking of course, but once again I am preparing for another historic night for APO, errrrr, I mean PAO.

------------------Tzorvas-------------

Marinos-----Sariegi--Kante---Vintra

-----------Simao---Gilberto---------

C'opoulos-------Ninis-------Leto

-----------------Cisse---------------

If we don't score in the first half, pull Cisse, Gilberto, Leto to rest for the derby. If we are up by one or two, pull Simao and go for broke with Salpi in the lineup as well.

what do you think?

[NikosVazelas]

Id play the same set up that we had vs Roma...

-------------Tzorvas------------------

----Kante---Sariegui---Vyntra

Marino---------------------------Leto

-------------Kara--Simao-----------

Salpi--------------------------Ninis

----------------Cisse---------------------

I know it looks like Leto is playing LWB

but its a LM position... When we defend.. we will have Simao drop between Sariegui and Vyntra n Marino will play more of a DM/RWB role.

When on offense.. we have 6 players pushing up

Try it for a half.... if we get on the score sheet.. go for broke..

If not...

Replace Kara with Christo and Leto with Ruka at halftime and Petrofor Djibs at around the 70th

[cyberfish]

wait, you play simao higher than Leto :blink:

maybe we should play this when it's daylight :P

[NikosVazelas]

wait, you play simao higher than Leto :blink:

maybe we should play this when it's daylight :P

I know it looks like Leto is playing LWB

but its a LM position... When we defend.. we will have Simao drop between Sariegui and Vyntra n Marino will play more of a DM/RWB role.

[NikosVazelas]

When on offense.. we have 6 players pushing up

[NikosVazelas]

beer

[cyberfish]

when on offense... 6 players... pushing up... beer?

What kind of game is that? :LOL: