Greece v. Spain @ Euro 2008

[js1000]

This team is old and slow. Now its time for a lot of players to move on...

what if they don't move on they will still get picked ? we need to be capping players younger so when they reach their mid 20s they've already got 30 odd caps. i'm sure otto will go with halkias and what if basinas karagounis dellas don't retire ? i'm sure they'll still make the team at the expense of younger players

[drakos13]

personally i dont think we were that badly coached at all after seeing 3 games.

Our defense is incredibly weak... Russia, Spain were allowed space and look how many chances they got going forward....this is why Rehagel tries to overenforce the back line vs Sweden.....the defense cant stand on its own, it needs help from midfield and even forwards to keep up with other teams.. Rehagel didnt trust the defense, and he was correct because it was a weak point. And I disagree with a lot of what Rehagel has done in the past with regards to call ups, but the man wouldnt come this far with a team like Greece had he no idea what he was doing.

He made a great point after Sweden... We can attack all game and not win. If we had opened up our defenses and risked we could have been down 3-0 at half time.

this isnt the same defense of 2004.

Last 2 games we risked, we tried, we sweat and bled to the best any coach could ask of them, but it didnt happen. I seriously doubt that "coaching" was at fault the last 2 games.

[gcp]

Every good man should know his limitations and it's become painfully obvious that none of these players are good men. Niko looks lost out there what a shame to hang it all up in such an embarrassing manner. Vasinas is so pitiful I don't even have words to describe his incompetence. As for the rest of them, unskilled, out of shape, slow thinking and yet arrogant! Absolutely disgusting performance, truly a Greek tragedy.

Yes the fans are the losers; they are losers because they spent their hard earned money to be punished time and again for 4 years now by these same so called footballers. A filos above stated that we wasted 4 years instead of rebuilding....truth is we've wasted much more than 4 years, we've wasted lifetimes, as is the usual patern for us Greeks.

[Lazarus]

.truth is we've wasted much more than 4 years, we've wasted lifetimes, as is the usual patern for us Greeks.

I feel for you my friend. And I'm sure that everybody in here - the old farts like me - feel for you and understand where you are coming from. We share your sentiments!

The youngsters in here have read about life as a Greek fan, never really lived it though! 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 2000s. So many years, so many players... all wasted! Well, on the bright side... We got to win a championship in Euro 2004! That was probably our peak! It's all downhill now? :( :( Irlandos? As an elder... Que dites-vous ?

[gcp]

Lazarus, maybe the desired changes will come about but I am afraid not in our lifetime. Ax mana mou Ellas pou ksepoulas ta paidia sou giftisa maimou, opos lei o Dalaras.

Drakos you say our defense was incredibly weak? The whole freakin team was incredibly weak! Can't score worth a damn, can't pass worth a damn, can't drible worth a damn, can't shoot worth a damn and can't win a game even against Spain's seconds. Oh I forgot Otto he can't couch worth a damn either (since 2004 that is). Any other HC would have been sacked by now multiple times but who do we Greeks have to replace him? NO ONE. Ante stin ugia mas kai giauto to ksilo kai afstiro kolodaxt....

[AEK-MTL]

Another game, another loss... Honestly, this team really let me down. Then again, what else can we expect? When your goalkeeper is laughable, your defense porous, your midfield clueless, and your forwards simply poor; what can we really expect?

Marks:

Nikopolidis: Another nightmare game. That first goal was a joke. Yes it was a hard shot and maybe the defense should have closed him down more quickly (Dellas almost got a foot in) but it was on his short-side and he had the post covered. For a supposedly "good" shot-blocker, he looked really weak on that one (managed to deflect it into the top of his net). 2

Vyntra: Made some good runs going forward but was caught out on defense plenty of times. 5

Spyropoulos: Same as Vyntra. 5

Dellas: Was mostly solid except for the second goal (probably fatigue and lack of concentration setting in). Did make a nice dribble in the offensive zone at one point. 4 (would have been a 6 if not for goal)

Kyriakos: Was solid and didn't make too many mistakes (which is saying something from our defense). 6

Antzas: Looked lost out there and made a terrible give-away that led to a Spanish chance. 4

Basinas: Terrible game. I had no idea what he was doing half the time. Constantly giving away the ball, poor touches, and very listless. 2

Katsouranis: For our supposed "holding midfielder", he did very little. I had to watch our midfield get carved out by Spanish passes time and time again; thereby putting continuous pressure on our defense. 3

Karagounis: Good effort and looked dangerous going forward. Made some good passes and a great delivery into the box for Charisteas on the goal (although he had plenty of errant free-kicks and corners also). 7

Charisteas: Besides the goal, nothing. Continuously kept losing the ball. 5 (would have been a 4 if not for the goal).

Salpignidis: Couldn't do anything on the right. Had a better second-half but was still reduced to running to the touchline hoping for a corner/throw-in/free-kick. 5

Amanatidis: Had 2 or 3 half-chances but couldn't finish. 4

Tziolis, Stelios: Not on for long enough to really judge.

All in all, another disappointing game to finally put an end to a miserable tournament.

[cyberfish]

As someone who remembers our first EURO in 1980, and countless embarrassing games I don't really feel that bad about this EURO.

I feel that Greek football has been mediocre for a century, and we are falling right back where we really belong. Watching other countries develop their game both on team and national levels, I can't honestly say that our football shows anywhere near the quality or growth.

You are usually defined by your best and your worst.

This Greek national team accomplished the best and the worst within a period of 4 years.

At least we can brag that us Greeks get to experience more of the emotional gamut :P

[Guest geok]

Equipe (

[loup]

Are we seriously going to look at this match and care about the otcome?

This was a friendly in reality -- with no pressures, no starters for them and a mixture of starters/subs for us

What do we take from this? That Charisteas is still our only producer, he scores today and people stil complain. Not one forward in 3 games played a better game than Charisteas, but stil you peole mock him. He has scored 4 of our 8 goals in the last 2 Euros, but I'm sure many of you will call for his head soon enough.

Spyropoulos may b able to handle the LB, allowing Toro to make a move to the midfielf, that we need desperatley, this Kara, KAts Basinas combo has grown stale.

This team with Papasthopolos and Ninis adding youth and somebody taking over from Nikopolidis will qualify for South Africa 2010, no doubt

Now for something I need to get off my chest as a long time supporter of the Ethniki

In general the worst part of this Euro was having to talk about the team with the casual, uninformed fan who blames our losses on a lazy team that has embarrassed them as Greeks.

Honestly, why didn't those malakes, and some of you too, unfortunately, just watch the 2004 games on DVD if you can't handle the valleys that go with the peaks of being a sports fan.

Change your TVs to reruns of Friends and rejoice when Ross and Rachel finally get together, because, unfortunately, sports are not for you. I'm not talking about criticism that is based on informed knowledge or careful scrutiny of the coaches and players, I'm talking about bashing the omatha.

For those of you who have made this forum what it is, I look forward to continued insight from you as we begin our WC campaign in 2.5 short months.

[loup]

the big losers of this tournament are the overreacting fans.

:tup:

[drakos13]

Are we seriously going to look at this match and care about the otcome?

This was a friendly in reality -- with no pressures, no starters for them and a mixture of starters/subs for us

What do we take from this? That Charisteas is still our only producer, he scores today and people stil complain. Not one forward in 3 games played a better game than Charisteas, but stil you peole mock him. He has scored 4 of our 8 goals in the last 2 Euros, but I'm sure many of you will call for his head soon enough.

Spyropoulos may b able to handle the LB, allowing Toro to make a move to the midfielf, that we need desperatley, this Kara, KAts Basinas combo has grown stale.

This team with Papasthopolos and Ninis adding youth and somebody taking over from Nikopolidis will qualify for South Africa 2010, no doubt

Now for something I need to get off my chest as a long time supporter of the Ethniki

In general the worst part of this Euro was having to talk about the team with the casual, uninformed fan who blames our losses on a lazy team that has embarrassed them as Greeks.

Honestly, why didn't those malakes, and some of you too, unfortunately, just watch the 2004 games on DVD if you can't handle the valleys that go with the peaks of being a sports fan.

Change your TVs to reruns of Friends and rejoice when Ross and Rachel finally get together, because, unfortunately, sports are not for you. I'm not talking about criticism that is based on informed knowledge or careful scrutiny of the coaches and players, I'm talking about bashing the omatha.

For those of you who have made this forum what it is, I look forward to continued insight from you as we begin our WC campaign in 2.5 short months.

:tup:

Bravo well said.

I complain a lot, but i didnt even beleive wed make it after that Turkey game in Karaiskaki. (I would have except I didnt know that 2nd place was automatic birth too :LOL: )

Some criticsm is warranted but much is overeacting. The stuff about the effort bashing is the stuff thats pure BS. These guys worked hard and gave it their all. Were a different team.......Our defense sucked this year, every Greek fan knew that was going to be a worry.......And our offense couldnt find its best form, players are tired, players are older....transition year.

France, Romania, Switzerland, Austria, Czech Rep, Sweden, and Poland also left early.....so what. We deserved at least a draw in the last 2 games sometimes it dont happen....

[aekrossoponti]

super post aek66, sums up everything pefectly :nw: :nw:

watching the game i was rather impressed by vyntra. i thought spyropoulos was o.k. too. maybe it could make sense to turn spyropoulos into a left midfielder as he doesnt seem that super on the defense. on the other hand i don t know whether he has dribbling skills, etc.

i dont know i am not tooo impressed with amanatidis. seems like the kind of good bundesliga player that doesnt necessarily have to play on a national team during his career. certainly wouldnt feature on the german national team although he could have been eligible. problem is we dont have much better.

which leads me to my main euro observation. maybe this greek squad give or take 2-3 players we may disagree about (antzas comes to mind) may well be pano kato the best greece has to offer. yet they are the worst team at the euro in terms of PLAYING football. we simply dont play and probably can t play much better. which is hard to swallow. but leaves me thinking that maybe we just can t expect much more from the ethniki especially if lck doesnt come our way. an swedish own goal and the tournament may have went differently. its a well deserved exit. i am just thinking whether it was wrong to expect more given our team.

the good thing for football fans is that modern football and especially this tournament seems to reward teams that play. which is bad news for greece and otto. the question is whether otto can change the course of greek football and basially his own football thinking as well. the destructive football greece show with anachronistic sweeper, etc. is nowadays easily exposed by top offensive sides. i had hoped our turkey away game was an indication of what we could expect at the euro. unfotunately i was proven wrong. it seemsed a one-off. the real greece can be seen against russia, today, hungary, etc. not the kind of team that necessarily has to make a euro.

i was somewhat disappointed to see ottos interviews, etc. in germany he is known to be very arrogant but this time around he placed himself above the team which is not good to see. another thing that strikes me, is tha whereas germany has a huge coaching staff (goalkeeping coach, fitness coach, scouts psychologists, etc.), greece is otto and topalidis. no scouting except for the translator topalidis. while this is refreshing at times, it may be another indication of exactly how backwards we work in greek football. and an indication of the HUGE GAP we will face if otto leaves because he and epo basically did NOTHING to build foundation for furthr ethniki success.

[evalagoal]

Decent game by our National Team, I just wished that we could've seen this kind of effort during the Sweedish and Russian game.

:gr: :gr: :gr: :gr: :gr:

[Akritis_1944]

:tup:

This is where we have to agree to disagree.

As a fan and a Greek I and any other punter has every right to comment on our National team. For the most part I haven't seen anyone being narrow minded or overly cynical about what we have seen the past week and a half.

I don't remember too many people seriously claiming that we would defend the titile.

I for one have been calling for a massive injection of youth since we arrived back to Athens with all the fanfare of 4 years ago.

Our players were poorly coached and their poor skill level, mentality and attitude need to be highlighted and exposed by us because we deserve better as a proud nation.

If you want to make excuses for Otto's team selections and insistance of playing keep ball amongst our 5 defenders against Sweden, then you're in the minority and I'd keep to watching hockey as you don't know an iota about football and what it means to have a go.

I'm sorry but I expected for us to be competitive and not make up excuses for our shortcomings. We got what we deserved and if it means we don't qualify for another 5 tounraments because we have to change our mentality, then so be it.

Otto has to go for the good of national team. :nono:

Qualifying is never enough if we are to repeat this shambolic failure.

Some poeple have argued if this tournament is worse than WC 94, in my mind it is way worse as we were defending champions.

We ended up being the worst team in the entire tournament this time around and we exited with our pride taking a massive dent and you and a very few others want to take it for what it is....again, go and follow hockey, you add nothing positive to the debate.

ZHTW ELLAS! :gr:

[loup]

I dont remember Katsouranis making one positive play

Here are my overall ratings for the omatha

Nikopolidis - 3 - cost us the Russia game, and the 2nd goal vs Sweeden was shabby too

Giorkas - I give him a no grade due to his injury - if he was healthy and played that way he gets a 3 too

Dellas - 6.5 - looked quicker than he has in the past few years. Of course he will never be nimble, but I thought he did well

Kyrgiakos - 7.5 - our only world-class player, played like one

Toro - 6 - the only thing that is holding this guy back is the lack of left footers that can play for the ethniki

Spyropoulos - 5 - looked ok today, I hope he can nail down a spot on the 11

Antzas -4 - best thing he did was retire

Vyntra -5- not bad for a back up

Patsa -5- did pretty well as a mid, and then wasn't bad stuck at RB for Giorkas. A good player to have as depth on this team

Katsouranis - 3 - did nothing positive, nothing

Basinas - 4 - I thought he looked like he was going at half pace at times, he looked as though he could have had a good tourney, but for some reason didn't excel.

Kara- as a starter 3.5 - as a sub 7- I'm getting sick of his play to tell you the truth, he looks like he would be a huge asswt of the bench

Tsiolis - no grade - didnt play enough

Amanatidis - 3.5 - was around the ball today but looked weak in his finishing, didnt do much in his other appearance either

Charisteas -7- almost everything positive in the box went through him. Unfortuantely the other 5 forwards can not compare in production for the ethniki compared to this man

Gekas - 4 - fairly useless but he did create the "goal" by Charisteas

Lybe 3 - I think Otto missused him badly, should have come of the bench, but either way he did little but cry vs Russia

Salpigidis -4 - he has never impressed me on th eethniki, I dont doubt his talent and pace, but as he is used by Otto he is nearly completely useless

Samaras - 5 - not a hustler for his club, but always gives 100% when he put on the blue and white, but he didnt produce much

I think i got everyone

Otto 4 - I thought he used decent tactics in the last 2 games, but over-rated the Sweeds. truth is he should have told Antzas to rough up Zlatan early in the first game, maybe we would be getting ready for Sunday

[Guest TheLegend]

today we played pretty good... especialy compared to our last 4 games...(those 2 horid friendlies)...

I think if torosidis was playing RB or RM today, and gekas was playing we coulda won. Charistead played VERY good today. Scored a goal did his job and helped create chances. That is what he needs to do.

Karagounis at least you run man but seriously stop the whining and diving and just play the game. Basinas and katsouranis. Very disapointing....

Nikopolidi is not at fault for today. Open head 3 feet away and a rocket shot from de la red. Yes he got a hand to it but it was so fast u need to be amazing to have a good reaction...

If we played with some better players in some positions and could finish just half our chances today we coulda beat spain 3-0 / 3-1

One thing that perplexes me is why we play to win today but against Sweeden we play to tie and against russia while were down 1-0 he takes out a foward to put in a midfeilders, instead of taking out a CB to put in a mid of foward. Rehagel neeeds to change tactics and stop distancing himself from the team or else he needs to go. Personaly I think he needs to go and i seriously think greece can be an attractive offer to many coaches. Top seeded in WC qualifying and seems to be in the top seeds for the next few tournaments unless we never win a game again. Rehagel would be grea tfor another team but once his tacitcs are realized thats game over. We have the quality to destroy small teams with these predictable tactics but we cant beat big teams playin like this.

[Guest TheLegend]

What a horrible humiliation we have suffered. I am so sad. Even after Charisteas scored, I knew they would mess up and they did. There are defeats and defeats. There are defeats were you pick yourself up and move on and defeats which destroy you. I think confidence is so bad that we'll lose to Israel and Switzerland.

A

Same here, especially if Otto keeps up with the usual players in the same positions...

OUR BIGGEST PROBLEM:: We can't score from open play. Does anyone even remember the last time??? We have no attacking midfielders and no competent strikers (Gekas and Samaras included)

Samaras and gekas are more than competant.Especialy gekas

32 goals in like 45 game in germany? Pretty good id say. We dont have a good mid to support our attack. With a good mid samaras and gekas would be scoring goals like crazy because as they do with their clubs theyd receive the ball at their feet with an open goal in front of them

and btw whover is shiting on amanatidis he plays like a mid and runs his ass off dont blame him. Blame otto for the selections and tactics.

We dont have one playmaker. We dont have a CM or CAM that can lead attacks. Karagounis cant creat plays everyone look at it. He runs and runs runs but to no avail most of the time

[gcp]

Apo Ta Nea:

[as5664]

Are we seriously going to

[NikosVazelas]

There were some positives to come out of this game.

First off, considering we played with two ineperienced fullbacks, against spain, we did ok.

I saw a lot of positives from Spyropoulos. He would be perfect with a 5-3-2 as an ofensive threat. and although he is a bit shaly defensively AT TIMES, a 5-3-2 will help with that. His doubters will say he is not world class to play for the NT. But we are talkin about tHE GREEK NT. He made 3 very good runs and one perfect cross that Charisteas missed. which is more than what torosidis did all tournament long. As i have said before, this is not a knock on toro. i just believe he will be ALOT ALOT ALOT ALOT more useful as a right sided player where he can utilise his speed AND his right foot.

Ideally... highly doubtful but ideally i would prefer to see something like this in the coming months.

first off.. play a 5-3-2 all the time. dont use a 4-3-3 for qualies and then go to a 5-4-1 or 5-3-2 in the tourney. it makes no sense. even against teams like malta, take every game seriously and try to organize attacks with the system you will be using.

now is a better time than ever to let the young blood play.

how about this

--------------------------tzorvas----------------------------

Toro---Seitaridis/Avraam--Kyriakos---Papasta---Spyropoulos

----------------Tziolis/Makos----------Katsouranis--------------

----------------------------Ninis-------------------------------

------Salpi/Amanatidis/Choutos-------Samaras/Gekas/Xristodou

With Toro playing in his original position he can help ALOT more offensively than on the left. Spyro likewise on the right and for those who fear of his defensive abilities, 3 CBs helps with that.

Put in tziolis or makos as a second holding MF along with katsouranis.

Tziolis has a prototypical football playrs body and had a very strong defensive season with pao. he is only 23. Makos can also be used here.

Have Ninis as a creative midfielder as this is his natural position and hope he develops into a star. when attacking at times, he can also flank the right side with toro or giourkas if we decide to play with Wings.

CF is a much more dificult position to lay. I feel as if gekas and Amanatidis would do really well if a kid liek Ninis can feed them balls the way he did for the u-19 last summer. Lets not forget that Ninis not only scored a goal but had 3 assists in that tournament.

players liek basinas and kara can easily come off the bench along with players like samaras, salpi, xristodoulopoulos. on CF we also have choutos who showed he has found his game again. kids like xristodoulopoulos and petropoulos(now with pao and will get playing time) can also eventually come off the bench and compete for a startign spot, depending on the style of game we play.

its an idea and hopefully soem of this starts happening.

on last thing, enough with the WE PLAYED SPAINS B TEAM. Re manges, spains b team players can easily get onto any Superleague teams roster sans doubt. including paos aeks and olys.

thats all for now. soprry bout the spelling mistake... dont ave my glasses and its kinda dark with the lady sleeping ..

later skaters

[chameleon65]

I applaud our team getting into the tournament and trying their best. We lost so be it but they way it ocured wasn't of course amusing. We have obviously noticed with other teams that we primarily lack speed, technical strikers and especially creative midfielders and a strong and quick goalkeeper. Somehow the style of play has to change cause all the other teams know how to shut us down easily. There no other players in greece to use? I can't understand why Otto did not select Ninis or a couple of other decent and young players to break them into these big tournaments and just try them out. I rather see us playing a more open game and lose than to witness another display like these last 3 matches. Even our renowed defense has been cracked open.

I do not think our NT will qualify for WC2010. We cannot just play soak up the pressure defense and expect to try and score a goal on just set-pieces. I do not know what happened but our NT played different during their qualifying matches showing more offensive ability. This team obviously needs changes to be more competitive and I think a coaching change could have created a brand new fresh start. Dunkenshen Otto for the glorious memories and accomplishments and what you did for our country and football but I think it's time to go and not for us to always hear "This team doesn't score goals" , etc and talk about democracy...His job is to make this team better. If EPO wants to get serious then find a good and experienced team management and not for only 2 men to figure out what to do. I do not wish it and I hope our NT will not slowly go downhill from here.

:gr:

[loup]

OK I agree with some of what you say but lets remember:

Before these "losers" and "xefteles" such as Otto and Charisteas came along, we were a country whose soccer highlights included:

One Euro final of no consequence

A WCup final, which we only got to because Yugoslavia was thrown out of the tournament. Lets remember 0-10.

A Champions League final for one of our club teams that we lost 2-0

This amounts for a soccer history somewhere between Albania and Wales.

So in reality we are not Brazil, and with our talent pool and infastructure we will continue to struggle against the big teams in Europe. But I for one am happy we qualified and happy that we qualified and that we were competitive on the final two matches, that I think could have gone either way.

That is why I am not acting as though the sky is falling like many of you are.

I keep hearing that if the lazy players had tried harder, or if guys like Charisteas had applied themselves more that we would have done much better in this tournament.

This is not under-9 football people.

Sometimes you don't have the horses as they say.

----

As far as Charisteas is concerned, I am assuming that you agree that the other 5 strikers are the best alternatives to Agelos, if so how do any of them compare with his productivity for the national team? they don't.

Here are their stats and remember while Charisteas' goals include 4 in the finals, Gekas has 3 against Malta,

caps goals

7 FW Georgios Samaras 21 February 1985 19 3 Celtic

9 FW Angelos Charisteas 9 February 1980 67 19 Nuremberg

14 FW Dimitrios Salpigidis 10 August 1981 20 1 Panathinaikos

17 FW Fanis Gekas 23 May 1980 29 6 Leverkusen

20 FW Ioannis Amanatidis 3 December 1981 28 3 Eintracht Frankfurt

23 FW Nikos Liberopoulos 4 September 1975 60 13 AEK Athens

This is all we've got to chose from, and our forwards are better than our midfield, so what did you guys really expect?

-----

Another thing check out the values of the players on the 16 teams, and our average age

Brush up on your German my friends

NATION KADER Ø-ALTER MARKTWERT Ø-MARKTWERT

Spanien 23 26.5 381.000.000 € 16.565.217 €

Italien 23 29.2 351.300.000 € 15.273.913 €

Frankreich 23 28.0 323.800.000 € 14.078.261 €

Portugal 23 27.0 271.800.000 € 11.817.391 €

Deutschland23 27.2 234.400.000 € 10.191.304 €

Niederlande23 28.2 232.200.000 € 10.095.652 €

Kroatien 23 27.5 130.700.000 € 5.682.609 €

Russland 23 26.1 125.850.000 € 5.471.739 €

Schweden 23 29.2 121.050.000 € 5.263.043 €

Tschechien 23 28.8 112.050.000 € 4.871.739 €

Türkei 23 26.8 106.800.000 € 4.643.478 €

Rumänien 23 26.9 89.100.000 € 3.873.913 €

Griechenland22 29.0 86.700.000 € 3.940.909 €

Schweiz 23 26.4 81.950.000 € 3.563.043 €

Polen 23 27.2 60.050.000 € 2.610.870 €

Österreich 23 26.5 44.575.000 € 1.938.043 €

[loup]

sorry I couldnt get the columns to line up

anyway onward to WC 2010 :gr: :gr: :gr: :gr: :gr:

[drakos13]

Im worried about WC quals now.......we need to get our conisstency back, and we cant score at the moment.....even Latvia will be tough if we cant score...

[Euphoria]

Does anyone know whether Nikopolidis did a lap of honour or something after the game (since it is his last)? Or a wave to the fans at least?

Please let me know.