Jump to content
Phantis Forums

Why hasn't Otto called-up Stoltidis?


aek21

Recommended Posts

I agree that Seitaridis has been average at best since EURO, but he has one quality no other Greek fb comes close to-the ability at any given time to completely shut down even some of the best wingers in the world.

Seitaridis strength was NEVER the ability to come forward as an overlapping FB. Rather, it was his incredible pace and burst which allowed him to stay with the worlds best (even though his marking technique isn't always textbook).

The fact that Greece doesn't really have any mids that play on the touchline to create width probably magnifies the need for overlapping fb's, but I'd rather be safe than sorry with a side like ours and take the better defensive player at the position (seitaridis).

btw, you mentioned Galletti, what was the reason AT. Madrid let him go?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 88
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Patsatzoglou is nowhere near the class of Seitaridis. Come on now, in the last 30 years or so, the only other Greek rfb I put in Giourkas class, or better, is Apostolakis.

As for Pats offensively, I'm sorry, I haven't seen it. And in most cases, Pats is playing dm, not fb.

Fyssas is actually very good offensively. Excellent reader of the game and a sweet left foot. He simply doesn't have the pace to get up and down the wing consistently. Never did.

btw, I thought it was Maxi Rodriguez (much better player, IMO) that took Galletti's spot, but I may be mistaken.

Most fb's competent?

Do you remeber Tziortzopoulos at AEK? :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

why is everyone bashing gourka, he's the only player we've got that could walk into most european teams. he is sheer class

If he is that talented but has not been performing then all the more reason to "bash" him. He hasn't been good since 2004. People here know that i don't buy into reputations and so called talent, i look at the facts (i.e. performances). One of the reasons i'm not keen on Samaras for example is not because he doesn't have the talent, but because his performances are not good enough. This criteria of judging players (i.e. their performances) is what every player should be judged by. Patsa has been better than Seitaridis during qualifying, it's as simple as that.

As for your view of Seitaridis getting into most European teams, what brngs you to that concluson? Is it his talent or his performances? If Seitaridis can get into any team into any team then why can't Kyriakos, for example?

Seitaridis should pull his socks up because if he carries on playing the way he has been he'll be a liability at the Euros.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seitaridis should pull his socks up because if he carries on playing the way he has been he'll be a liability at the Euros.

thats a very harsh stratement. i mean giourkas has NEVER been a liability for the greek nt. o.k. his one cross in the turkey game was horrendous and i think he didnt play that well in norway but overall he has solid performances and doesnt make mistakes defensively. which is what we will need in the tournament, no easy goals such as spains 1:0 in the euro04.

overall i am between a rock and a hard place between giourkas and toro. i belive toro has a hige offensive upside while giourkas is just a great defender probably the best we have. he had a great game in turkey defensively as well. there just has to be some way to incorporate both in our lineup without crippling toro on the left in an hommage to german coaches use/misuse of lahm the past few years. patsa for me is just a third choice for the right back position.

either way i will be happy but most likely we will see giourkas which is a good thing as well. the bigger problem is our left side where ironically toro could seem a better option than spyropoulos. perhaps its better to field toro even on his wrong side than to not field toro. i am unsure about that one. in any case spyropoulos need more caps.

bear in mind though that probably the whole team and all the players will improve their game greatly come the euro04. there is a different motivation playing sweden in the euro than playing hungary. wha is encouraging is the depth of our squad. i really cant remember as many top choices at cb, rb, dm, striker positions. the only problems lie in the leftback and offensive mdifielder positions. o.k. goalkeeper is another story...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seitaridis should pull his socks up because if he carries on playing the way he has been he'll be a liability at the Euros.

thats a very harsh stratement. i mean giourkas has NEVER been a liability for the greek nt. o.k. his one cross in the turkey game was horrendous and i think he didnt play that well in norway but overall he has solid performances and doesnt make mistakes defensively. which is what we will need in the tournament, no easy goals such as spains 1:0 in the euro04.
He was abysmal in the game at home to Turkey and was out of position for Arda's shot in Turkey that came off the post. His inability to get forward in the last year has also meant that we've suffered offensively as he doesn't provide an option for a pass, this throws the balance of the team & can lead to our midfielders giving away possession, hence he's a liability. Surely you can't deny that Patsa has been much better than him in qualifying? Even Vyntra had a great game against Malta, but I don't remember the last time Seitaridis had a great game... wait, that's a lie, he was amazing against Norway at home and was very good against Hungary at home, but with his talent we should be getting much more consistency. Don't get me wrong, I would still start him, but he needs to work harder.

i really cant remember as many top choices at cb, rb, dm, striker positions. the only problems lie in the leftback and offensive mdifielder positions. o.k. goalkeeper is another story...

I'm worried about our central midfield. Everywhere else we're fine, including Toro at left back. Because of his lack of experience I don't trust Spyropoulo and would rather have Pantos go. I also think that Karagouni is no longer good enough to start and I would like to see Patsa or Stoltidi get a chance in the middle, although the latter will never get a cap under Otto. Basinas can also be a worry because he is so negative and doesn't move! But if he is pushed forward (like he was against Turkey), almost like a dekari. I think he could be VERY dangerous. I also think that Kotsolis (Larisa) deserves a shot in goal. I'll be honest, our lack of pace and offensive ability in centre mid is really worrying me. So, although I think Seitaridi needs to pull his socks up, I actually think that the player that deserves the biggest bullocking is Katsourani! A player of his ability should be getting forward ALOT more!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

seitaridis is quick looks comfortable on the ball he's good offensively and before his injury was a regular for atletico. if he wasn't performing atletico would have dropped him. tell me another greek player performing consistently in a top league like giourka.(premiership or la liga imo are far better than german italian or french leagues) i'm surprised any one would question his selection in our NT

dude@ re kyrgiakos is good defensively has a good presance about him and is great in the air but his distribution is not great. for me seitaridis has everything

Link to comment
Share on other sites

seitaridis is quick looks comfortable on the ball he's good offensively and before his injury was a regular for atletico. if he wasn't performing atletico would have dropped him. tell me another greek player performing consistently in a top league like giourka.(premiership or la liga imo are far better than german italian or french leagues) i'm surprised any one would question his selection in our NT

dude@ re kyrgiakos is good defensively has a good presance about him and is great in the air but his distribution is not great. for me seitaridis has everything

But that's just knit-picking. Seitaridis is weak in the air, his positioning isn't great either. No player is perfect. One thing is for sure though, I'd much rather have Kyriakos fit and playing at Euro 2008 than Seitaridis.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

seitaridis is quick looks comfortable on the ball he's good offensively and before his injury was a regular for atletico. if he wasn't performing atletico would have dropped him. tell me another greek player performing consistently in a top league like giourka.(premiership or la liga imo are far better than german italian or french leagues) i'm surprised any one would question his selection in our NT

dude@ re kyrgiakos is good defensively has a good presance about him and is great in the air but his distribution is not great. for me seitaridis has everything

But that's just knit-picking. Seitaridis is weak in the air, his positioning isn't great either. No player is perfect. One thing is for sure though, I'd much rather have Kyriakos fit and playing at Euro 2008 than Seitaridis.
Weak in the air?

What difference does that make? How many fb's are strong in the air, even those of world class ability? Are you expecting Giourka to go up for a lot of headers on the right touchline? That's like saying your CF isn't that good because he's not a great passer of the bll.

Giourka isn't bad at all positionally. His marking technique isn't always textbook, but I can't say he gets caught out of position with any regualrity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

seitaridis is quick looks comfortable on the ball he's good offensively and before his injury was a regular for atletico. if he wasn't performing atletico would have dropped him. tell me another greek player performing consistently in a top league like giourka.(premiership or la liga imo are far better than german italian or french leagues) i'm surprised any one would question his selection in our NT

dude@ re kyrgiakos is good defensively has a good presance about him and is great in the air but his distribution is not great. for me seitaridis has everything

But that's just knit-picking. Seitaridis is weak in the air, his positioning isn't great either. No player is perfect. One thing is for sure though, I'd much rather have Kyriakos fit and playing at Euro 2008 than Seitaridis.
my problem with seitaridi is that he hasn't improved in 2 ways that would make him a 15 million fullback. any improvement in these 2 skills since 2004 would make his name a world-wide name..

1) he hasn't improved on his crossing. in fact, it's probably deteriorated. his crossing is terrible. i'm sorry...the cross to papadopoulos in 2005...even a blind squirrel eventually finds a nut.

2) he hasn't learned and then perfected 1 or 2 dribbles that he feels comfortable/confident enough to try when a dribble is needed. he's like many greek players...kick and run - trying to outpace a defender. if this was the right way to play football, donis would be compared to sir stanley matthews and xaris pappas would be sought after by barcelona. at times, the only way to win time for a teamate to get into an advantageous shooting/heading position, is to make a dribble. not to show off, but TO WIN TIME.

combine his pace/acceleration with those 2 skills would make seitaridi world-class. just be a decent crosser and learn 1 dribble - that's all i expect...he can't even do that.

there's no excuse. what does he spend all his time in practice doing? practicing penalties? on atletico set-pieces, giourka is always back anyways. if this player had any drive-determination to be the best he could be, he certainly would have improved in those areas since 2004.

one of my favorite former fullbacks (left-sided) from serie a and national football was robert jarni, the croatian. a fullback who improved year after year until he became a world-wide name. in 2004, i thought seitaridi was heading to a career to mirror maldini's - albeit on a different side. now, seitaridi isn't a top 15 fullback in europe.

i hope seitaridi proves me wrong, in a big way. i have no problem at all being wrong on this. i'm only on his case because i know he can do better.

I agree on Giourkas crossing. Definitely needs improvement.

As for "learning" a dribble, I'm sorry, but once a player reaches a certain level, his "learning" is for the most part done. it's not a matter of learning a dribble, but whether or not the ability is there to do so. And as an overlapping fb, I think you've overrated its importance. when a fb comes forward, what frees him is the numerical advantage created by his run, not his dribbling ability (see Toro v. aek). Thus, pace to create and take advantage of this numerical superiority is of much greater importance than dribbling ability.

Furthermore, there have been plenty of world class fb's who couldn't dribble particularly well. Paolo Maldini and Guiseppe Bergomi are two that come to miind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Weak in the air?

What difference does that make? How many fb's are strong in the air, even those of world class ability? Are you expecting Giourka to go up for a lot of headers on the right touchline? That's like saying your CF isn't that good because he's not a great passer of the bll.

Giourka isn't bad at all positionally. His marking technique isn't always textbook, but I can't say he gets caught out of position with any regualrity.

His positioning is abysmal! Unless he is man marking, where he's told to stick to a particular player he's always caught out of position.

The remark about Seitaridis' aerial ability is because of the argument that he can play at centre-back.

I have to say I also agree with Aek66 about Seitaridis dribbling and crossing, the guy just hasn't progressed like his promise suggested.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Weak in the air?

What difference does that make? How many fb's are strong in the air, even those of world class ability? Are you expecting Giourka to go up for a lot of headers on the right touchline? That's like saying your CF isn't that good because he's not a great passer of the bll.

Giourka isn't bad at all positionally. His marking technique isn't always textbook, but I can't say he gets caught out of position with any regualrity.

His positioning is abysmal! Unless he is man marking, where he's told to stick to a particular player he's always caught out of position.

The remark about Seitaridis' aerial ability is because of the argument that he can play at centre-back.

I have to say I also agree with Aek66 about Seitaridis dribbling and crossing, the guy just hasn't progressed like his promise suggested.

You've totally confused positioning with marking technique.

FB probably is the position on the pitch where positioning matters the least. All you're really asked to do is mark space on your respective flank third of the pitch. You're not asked to cope with play from both directions (as a central player), nor are you asked to coordinate your movement with another player (as a CB).

So unless you're talking about getting caught too far upfield (which I rarely see from giourka) or not following the "line" on an offside trap (which again I haven't seen), there really isn't much else.

Getting wrong footed, or not playing an attacker at apropriate distance, or not playing the opponent side ways on, are all faults in marking technique, not positioning.

And while Giourka is often sloppy on his technique, he more than makes up for it with his great pace and recovery speed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Weak in the air?

What difference does that make? How many fb's are strong in the air, even those of world class ability? Are you expecting Giourka to go up for a lot of headers on the right touchline? That's like saying your CF isn't that good because he's not a great passer of the bll.

Giourka isn't bad at all positionally. His marking technique isn't always textbook, but I can't say he gets caught out of position with any regualrity.

His positioning is abysmal! Unless he is man marking, where he's told to stick to a particular player he's always caught out of position.

The remark about Seitaridis' aerial ability is because of the argument that he can play at centre-back.

I have to say I also agree with Aek66 about Seitaridis dribbling and crossing, the guy just hasn't progressed like his promise suggested.

You've totally confused positioning with marking technique.

FB probably is the position on the pitch where positioning matters the least. All you're really asked to do is mark space on your respective flank third of the pitch. You're not asked to cope with play from both directions (as a central player), nor are you asked to coordinate your movement with another player (as a CB).

So unless you're talking about getting caught too far upfield (which I rarely see from giourka) or not following the "line" on an offside trap (which again I haven't seen), there really isn't much else.

Getting wrong footed, or not playing an attacker at apropriate distance, or not playing the opponent side ways on, are all faults in marking technique, not positioning.

And while Giourka is often sloppy on his technique, he more than makes up for it with his great pace and recovery speed.

Not only does he have good pace but agility as well; and that is important during 90 (possibly more) minutes of play. But I understand what AEK66 is saying; why not Torosidi? I havent' really followed Seitaridi in his club like AEK66 obviously does, and I'm not as knowledgeable as AEK66, so I can't remark on the purported problems and/or lack of technique and willingess to improve. But, I do know this: we will never see Torosidis on the right; why? Because Otto wants it that way (for whatever reason). Period.

But, that being said, and what I have been complaining about myself, is that kremasame ta mavra pania before the competition has even begun! I really don't think Seitaridis is a problem on the team; and, therefore, I don't see the reason to rock the boat. Sure, there is no reason why Torosidis can't be on the right; at least I can't think of one. But it's just the way Otto coaches; that is the only explanation. I can only guess that Otto, for whatever reason, likes a tight defensive right side and sporadic offensive bursts from the left; I see that especially when we play a 5-3-2, I don't know why. Perhaps Otto just wants to exploit Torosidis' offensive ablity on the left, and, like AEKROSSPONTI said above, maybe he would rather have Toro's ability on the left than no Torosidi, or a "natural" left-footed player.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i's very aggravating when you type something while doing something else and make mistakes - either spelling or just logical writing.

if anyone responds to the seitaridi issue, i'll glady respond in a manner that is not half-azzed, like my post.

Don't worry, we all do it. Sometimes I don't even understand my own posts! :P
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not only does he have good pace but agility as well; and that is important during 90 (possibly more) minutes of play.  But I understand what AEK66 is saying; why not Torosidi?  I havent' really followed Seitaridi in his club like AEK66 obviously does, and I'm not as knowledgeable as AEK66, so I can't remark on the purported problems and/or lack of technique and willingess to improve.  But, I do know this: we will never see Torosidis on the right; why? Because Otto wants it that way (for whatever reason).  Period. 

But, that being said, and what I have been complaining about myself, is that kremasame ta mavra pania before the competition has even begun!  I really don't think Seitaridis is a problem on the team; and, therefore, I don't see the reason to rock the boat.  Sure, there is no reason why Torosidis can't be on the right; at least I can't think of one.  But it's just the way Otto coaches; that is the only explanation.  I can only guess that Otto, for whatever reason, likes a tight defensive right side and sporadic offensive bursts from the left; I see that especially when we play a 5-3-2, I don't know why.  Perhaps Otto just wants to exploit Torosidis' offensive ablity on the left, and, like AEKROSSPONTI said above, maybe he would rather have Toro's ability on the left than no Torosidi, or a "natural" left-footed player.

as5664 - first off, i'm not an expert. i don't get paid (though that really doesn't mean much to some journalists, coaches or managers) to comment on football. the sport itself brings much debate. people have opinions. i enjoy reading others' opinions, it's finally time that the greek national side compelled debate and not the backward thinking lekanopedio attikis vs. thessaloniki football debates.

just based on what i've learned/experienced..i/other people watch the greece side play and i/other people develope their own opinions.

i look at it this way, i'm with otto, i DEFINATELY want torosidi in the 11 just like otto does. my feeling is - i want to utilize torosidi to do the most damage he can to the opponent. make the opponent suffer. to do this, i feel that torosidi needs to play on his most comfortable side on his most comfortable foot. most players, in general, feel this way too.

a recent example is torosidis' nice assist and his run from right fullback in the olympiakos x aek match. that goal never happens with the greece side. torosidi can't cut that cross with his left foot. i'd bet my house on it. if charisteas on the greec side would wait (ala kovacevic) for such a killer cross from the left/torosidi to bury a header, he'd wait forever.

i felt this way about stelios (wrong foot- wrong side) since 2004, along with no matching wide midfielder..and i knew what would happen and it happened. the 2006 w.c. qualifiers were ridiculous. 15 goals in 12 matches, 0 goals in 540+ minutes from open play against the top 3 in our group (ukraine-turkey-denmark).

our central midfielders aren't the most offensive and i knew that attacking fullback play would be paramount to greek success. i felt a bit confident with seitaridis on the right, but he disappointed me deeply. to the point - where his play is scrutinized and it can't be assumed that 'he's our star'.

anyways - i appreciate your argument. i want people that defend or critizize otto to explain the defense or attack. i try to explain what i think - i know it comes out jumbled at times.

Youre criticisms of Otto are valid, and I think that you make strong arguments, not jumbled; so don't worry. In fact, I am not as knowledgeable about tactics so it's tough for me to keep up with you! :huh:

As DUDE said above, you don't have to explain. I read some of my posts afterwards all the time and ask myself later, "what the heck was the point I was trying to make?" lol

But I guess we all can be our own worst critics!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i's very aggravating when you type something while doing something else and make mistakes - either spelling or just logical writing.

if anyone responds to the seitaridi issue, i'll glady respond in a manner that is not half-azzed, like my post.

Don't worry, we all do it. Sometimes I don't even understand my own posts! :P
makes sense to me...your problem is that you're misunderstood by the powers that be.

- i'm telling you, an avatar of the dalai lama or neville chamberlain will do wonders for your savage/violent image.

I have a savage/violent image? :o :( THANKS! :LOL:

I can't understand why... I stopped dressing like Conan the Barbarian and hitting my girlfriend on top of the head with a club to indicate that I wanted to make babies, years ago! :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

besides i dont see how stoltidis or tavlaridis would destroy the harmony or playing spyropoulos for example. given that we won the euro with nikolaidis and the biggest demis-hater alive tsiartas or that the alleged "most arrogant greek player on gods earth" amanatidis plays in many post euro matches. its just another empty statement by otto...

an intersting anecdote is that otto was fired by kaiserlautern the year after he won the champonship in the first year after promotion from the second league which was sensational achievement. among the reason that circulated was one that otto only bought/was interested in players from a manager he was friends with. all in all he left kaiserlautern at war with most officials there which could also be the reason we never saw kaiserlautern player and aek66 favorite grammozis on the ethniki.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

seit is what he is....you can forget him improving his offensive skillset.....he has made his money, and now is getting by on his reputation......its rare that pro athletes at this stage of their careers miraculously develop another part of their game to world class level....thats the coaches job, to assess their talent and put their players in the best position to be sucessful....seit is useful, make no mistake about it......but u cant expect a quadrapeligic to get up and walk....likewise dont expect seit to all of a sudden become an offensive force.....

if you go back and see the run he made in 04 leading to the passs that set up the basinas penalty you will see how best suited his offensive skills are.....

now, SHOULD he work on it? well that a whole different philosophical question, that is outside the scope of this forum..but in a nutshell, yes, pro athletes should always strive to improve themselves, and it is what seperates the great ones form the rest.....

to give u an example, Payne Stewart was a professional golfer who won the MASTERS, the most prestigious gold tournament which is held every year...its a grueling multi day event, and you are playing against the best in the world....well he won the tournamant, and IMMEDIATELY following the presentation of the trophy prize moey etc, and the crowds and cameras left, he got a quick bite and then went to the driving range to PRACTICE his short game!!!!!!!!!

this is extreme and boarderline obsessive, but i share this simply to make the point that ultimately what drives athletes and people in general, is wahts inside....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

aek, excellent post and i agree with everything you say......especially the part of waiting for kara to dribbble 4 guys, etc....i said in in some my earlier posts that the majority of greek strikers abroad that are successful, score goals becuase they are spoon fed by excellent passes/plays/ sets behind them......the greek team lacks this attribute....bigtime......so yes if seit and the biys had the ability to crete some space and time to feed the guys up front, we would score a bit more.....

BUT....what isaid was that i dont expect seit to improve on his game...it was a comment directed at HIM specifically.....i dont know him personally, but my intuitive sense tells me that he wont go the extra mile to improve that part of his game...should he? well, of course.....does he pwe it to himslef to be the best he can be? i woud assume that would be the case......but the fact is he got to where he is, big contracts, ect., with the skillset he has....i see no motivation on HIS part to improve his game....when he plays he disappears alot....and yes he is a vita part of the team, and if he could learn what you are saying it would make him doubly dangerous....i just dont think he is the type to do it......

but i did say its rare, becuase some athletes, regardles of their stature or accomplishments, are always trying to improve...micheal jordan came into the leauge and when told he had a bad jump shot worked at it for years until he became one of the best shooters around....he did not have to...he already had the big contract, the prestige, etc...but he had a different perspective about his role as a professional athlete and WHAT HE OWED TO HIMSLEF......

....my comments simply were using seit as an illustration of todays professional athlete, and was meant to examine the bigger picture of how some athletes are never satisfied and some get fat and lazy after they have achieved significant milestones or accomplishments....and further, I would bring all back around and contrast the Greek soccer professional and how their attitudes and approach to their profssion may have changes to account for the recent successes of the national team.....

you may have been thrown off by the reference to "world class", but that i meant that seit, as memeber of the national team, is playing a gainst world class players, so the level of his game is being showcased agisnt top flight players on the world stage......but if you take a step back you will notce we are saying the same thing....what you and I, presumably, are hoping for is that he learn a few "SIMPLE, BASIC" things....not any high degree of diffuculty manuvers. and the fact that these are simple things and yet he has not done it tells me 1. he does not care to improve.....2. he cant do it even though he tried.....3. he does not read this thread as part of his self improvement regiment.......

i dont know which one it is but, again, i agree that it is frustrating to watch someone with talent not maximize it for his betterment and the betterment of the team....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

yes, aek....absoutely....let me ive you a prime example of this.....

my nephew is 6'7'........he is 28 years old...throughout school, he was always the tallest or one of the tallest kids......when he play organized basketball, at around age 9, he towered over everyone...so naturally the coach, who even at that level wants to win, told him stay under the basket and block shots and grab rebounds....this went on all through elementary and high school; as the tallest kid he was stuck under the basket...now for the things he did, he did great, but no attention whatsoever was given to his dribbling, shooting, footwork skills....

now when he plays in the recreational leagues he is severly limited....with his size, he could have very easily played division one college ball and maybe even some pro ball in europe as he is very athletic and has size, twothings you cant teach...but in those levels, being 6 7 is not enough....it maybe in elementary and high school, but college and pro your whole game has to be developed....and......due to his size he was pigeon holded for all of his career.....

this happeend to me also with baseball....i could pitch the ball at about 90-92 miles per hour in high school....so naturally all my coaches never bothered to show me a change up, or a curve ball becuase i was excelling with just throwing hard....when i got to college i could not get anybody out becuase the talent there required i had another pitch...but again, it was too late to perfect the skill needed to go professional....

'

so you are 100% corrrect....seit got by with pace, and needed nothing else to standout....but now the weaknesses are apparent becuase he is playing on a world class level....he is still very useful, but he stiffles the forwards due to his lack of a dribble or crossing ability.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.


×
×
  • Create New...