Why hasn't Otto called-up Stoltidis?

[aek21]

I don't know why Otto hasn't called-up Stoltidis, perhaps there are some discrepancies between the two that aren't publicly known... but for Christ sakes it doesn't take a genius to figure out this guy is amazing and if he can do wonders with OSFP he can do them with the NT. I just don't understand, maybe someone can enlighten me?

[TheCity1924]

Stoltidis and Ziko both have had issues with Otto and would probably refuse to play for him even if the Germano decided to call them up.

Otto didn't call Ziko when he was in the height of his career playing in the final with Monaco. Stoltidis would surely give the midfield a different sort of dynamic and be able to calm things down when the midfield often breaks down.

[aek21]

That can't be it, Zikos has stated he would love to play for the NT and he didn't understand why he never got called-up. Even Deschamps (Monaco coach) quesitoned why Otto hadn't called-up Zikos. Stoltidis has played before for the NT (I don't think under Otto) and he was apart of the team that played at the 2004 Olympics and the '98 u-21 Euros, I'm under the impression he is choosing to invest his energy with club over country.... but I can't imagine a professional soccer player not wanting to participate at a WC or European championship... its pretty much every player's dream to win one, let alone be apart of one.

[Sharpos]

I totally agree with the question! If Stoltidis doesent get at least a friendly next year, something must be rotten in the state of Germano :tdown:

If it is in fact Stoltidis that refuses to play for the ethniki. He's a very silly man in my book :P

[DUDE]

Not only should Stoltidi be in the squad, but so should Pantos!!!

[Guest geok]

That is an excellent forum.

Unfortunately, it appears that both Pantos and Stoltidis are just not "members" of the team. No fan can really offer a rational explanation why Otto has not called up Stoltidis or indeed Pantos as DUDE correctly pointed out; players who play with heart, exactly in alignment with the spirit of our National Team. Pantos could be an excellent replacement for retiring (?) Kapsis, a thought that just occured to me.

There can only be 23 players in the squad for EURO, including the 3 goalkeepers. That means 2 field players in each position. The squad seems to be complete at the moment and even from the current players some will have to be dropped.

Based on past experience (previous EURO and previous qualification campaign), Otto will not call any new players unless he sees something wrong, or unless there is injury. Therefore, I give only a very slim chance to either Stoltidis or Pantos to be called by Otto.

History will only tell if Otto is wrong. I have a feeling that he may be wrong in that decision actually, but with the current team I don't see why he could not go far in EURO, given the draw.

:gr: :gr: :gr:

[Sharpos]

i wouldn't call up neither player. if a basinas, karagounis or katsourani gets seriously injured, i would call up stoltidi. i think he can help in a 1 tournament scenario.

Lets say, GOD FORBID, one of those players get injured in the last game before the euro. One could not expect him doing very well if called up on an emergancy like that, since he's not been able to practise with the team. I say, call him up for a friendly or two. It could prove to be the straw that breaks the camels back :whistle:

[TheCity1924]

That can't be it, Zikos has stated he would love to play for the NT and he didn't understand why he never got called-up. Even Deschamps (Monaco coach) quesitoned why Otto hadn't called-up Zikos. Stoltidis has played before for the NT (I don't think under Otto) and he was apart of the team that played at the 2004 Olympics and the '98 u-21 Euros, I'm under the impression he is choosing to invest his energy with club over country.... but I can't imagine a professional soccer player not wanting to participate at a WC or European championship... its pretty much every player's dream to win one, let alone be apart of one.

Actually its not exactly up to the player to decide whether he wants to invest his energy only in club football. If a player is called up by the national team and the player refuses to go he may face a two game domestic ban for every international game he refuses to participate in.

I remember that there was something going on between Otto and Stoltidis and thats why he wasn't being called up. Anyway, just like someone else said in this forum, he's 32 or 33 and i would much rather have a younger player gain some experience especially in friendly matches, they are the future of the team. WC 2010 is about 2 1/2 years away and many of our players will be 36 or retired.

[cyberfish]

I heard this on the radio a couple of months ago, so I don't have a link.

A reporter said that Otto mentioned that everyone is asking him to call Stoltidis. Otto said he knows he is a good player, but he already has enough players in the squad that do this kind of work in midfield and that he can't fit anyone else.

I suspect also that age might have something to do with it. He has not called anyone new that's over thirty I don't think.

Otto does not plan the team for the moment, and he does not call the most talented or the players who happen to be in the best form at a particular moment. He looks at the whole team as a closed club of players, and he thinks that maintaining the chemistry is more of a priority than fitting in players for any other reason. His ideas seemed to work better than his predecessors who did the exact opposite.

I stopped questioning his judgement first when he won the Euro leaving out of the squad some of the best Greek players in certain positions (Georgatos, Zikos), and later when he won in Turkey with Antzas as a DM (what! :blink: ).

Personally, I don't think that it's the end of the world for our NT if Stoltidis is not called, and our NT would not be all that different if he played. I don't think it's a big deal.

[aekrossoponti]

I suspect also that age might have something to do with it. He has not called anyone new that's over thirty I don't think.

agree with everything you say except this.

actually stoltidis is perfect otto material. over 30, experienced, trememdous work rate, loyal to the team and a good character.

lets not forget stoltidis has a good left foot which is something the ethniki lacks. plus he gets much more goals than any of our midfielders and could be an extra threat. i would be in favour of having him on the squad.

[paxiotis7]

Stoltidis is 10 times better than Basinas. Basinas is the worst starter on the ethniki by far. We clearly need work in that spot. Ive thoght stoltidis shoulda had this spot months ago at the start of the euro campaign. Like aekrossoponti i agree with almost everything said. I agree that Pantos should be called up, but not nessasaraly play. I dont think hes good enough but would be a good mentor to kids liek spyropouls. Hes a way better alternative than antolakis or kapsis.

[AEK-MTL]

Stoltidis is 10 times better than Basinas. Basinas is the worst starter on the ethniki by far. We clearly need work in that spot. Ive thoght stoltidis shoulda had this spot months ago at the start of the euro campaign.  Like aekrossoponti i agree with almost everything said. I agree that Pantos should be called up, but not nessasaraly play. I dont think hes good enough but would be a good mentor to kids liek spyropouls. Hes a way better alternative than antolakis or kapsis.

10 times better? Really? I doubt that. Stoltidis probably has the edge over Basinas when it comes to tackling and such but I think Basinas is the better passer of the two.

In any case, Tziolis seems to be getting groomed for the DM role now plus we have Katsouranis and Basinas who can both play deep so I don't think the NT really needs Stoltidis. Besides, as has been pointed out, continuity is important. Still, wouldn't be a bad idea to call up Stoltidis for a friendly.

[DUDE]

i think stolitidis' preformance yesterday is more of a reminder of 'what could have been', and not 'we need him right now'.

he played under the radar for many years at iraklis...you blink your eyes, and now stoltidi is 32 or 33. he seems to save his best for high-profile matches, something that should have been food-for-thought, for otto.

at olympiakos, i think ledesma has freed up stoltidis a bit. i'm not sure how that would corrolate to the greek national side, where at times, we've seen all 3 center midfielders play deep and negative.

i think the boat has sailed for this player. i think he can help for next summer's tournament, but i don't think otto will call him up...otto justifying that the future belongs to tziolis and not stoltidis.

i wouldn't call up neither player. if a basinas, karagounis or katsourani gets seriously injured, i would call up stoltidi. i think he can help in a 1 tournament scenario

File you're right Stoltidis has been freed up by Ledesma, as you say our midfielders on the NT are negative/defensive, hence, Stoltidis would be freed up to go forward there too. The man really is an "iron man", he's consistent, hard working, good aerially, and gets goals with a thunderbolt of a shot. As for Tziolis... I agree with giving youth a chance. But let's us, what's the point of giving youth a chance? As you say "the future belongs to Tziolis". In other words, the hope is that Tziolis will develop into a very good player that can offer something to our NT at a major tournament. Well we have a major tournament coming up! I don't care if someone is 18 or 40, if they are good enough to play, they should play! Stoltidi is a much better player than Tziolis, he should be in the squad. Simple.

as far as pantos, a decent wide defender, no real offensive capabilities...on the smallish side (though this player has made himself better through hard work and weight training). i think greece has better than this player. i remember when pantos, koulouxeris and tatsis came to olympiakos. it's a bit surprising that pantos has had the better career than the other 2 (though koulouxeri may bloom late at aris with bajevic). good for pantos.

Pantos is experienced and probably more reliable defensively than Spyropoulos. Since the kid isn't getting a chance I'd much rather have a stable Pantos. As for him not getting forward, I disagree. He doesn't get forward and whip in great crosses, i.e. Georgatos, but he is reliable! If we need him to come in we know he'll be good defensively. Can we say that about an inexperienced Spyropoulos or an aging Kapsis?

[DUDE]

i just hope that players like spyropoulos/tavlaridis/avraam papadopoulos won't be the future zikos' & stoltidis'.

I don't think Otto will stay after Euro 2008, whatever we do. So I think they do have a future.

[aekrossoponti]

Stoltidis is 10 times better than Basinas. Basinas is the worst starter on the ethniki by far. We clearly need work in that spot.

i really disagree.

basinas and katsouranis to me are one class above stoltidis. they are much better players, can control a game better and technically and tactically much stronger than iero. against werder we saw iero lose the ball due to extremly poor control oftentimes. so lets not get ahead of ourselves here and give cedit where credit is due. and basinas deserves that credit. basinas is not the flashy player people love but you will miss basinas if he doesnt play.

katsouranis gives me a headache as he is constantly underperfomring in recent games.

still, i am in favour of calling up iero as most of the posters here where since the euro 04. he could have been the new zagorakis and get more goals as well.

pantos is a player you could nominate but i believe with spyropoulos playing there would be the better move overall. i am also unsure whether pantos is better on the left side than vyntra or torosidis. his work ethic is great but lets not kid ourselve we saw him blunder numerous times, he gets booked very easily as well. expect no crosses from him, etc.

so he is a can while stoltidis probably is a must. since the euro 04 and perhaps even before that to be fair.

having said that we have to realise that caling up stoltidis would mean no tziolis which i could live with. it would probably also mean no dimoutsos or ninis. which i think could be acceptable as well.

[aek21]

I think every player on the NT deserves to be on the team, but Stoltidis deserves a chance at least in an upcoming friendly. It wouldn't hurt to have more options (in case someone gets injured before euro), and who knows he might prove to be a better addition to the team. I don't think age has anything to do with him not getting called-up especially singe there are plenty of guys on the team older than him and at his age. Besides Lyberopoulos was recalled at 30 when he was on top form, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch for Stoltidis to get recalled at 32 while he's playing in this form.

[plato-ny]

Stoltidis might not have gotten a callup because of personal or ideological differences with Otto or due to a personal decision by Stoltidis. Similar situation with Zikos. Otto wants the NT to be a family first and foremost and neither might not be a team player (if thats an actual reason). Regardless, Otto has done fine without either player.

[Kolokotronis]

Good Lord, I can't believe what I'm reading. Tasos Pantos on the Greek NT? We may as well call up Georgeas and Vyntra as well. :LOL:

For Gods sake, there are a boatload of better Greek FB's than Panto in the SL. And he won't replace Kapsis either. Pantos is a FB, not CB. And I believe he's naturally right footed, not left. Galitsios on the right and Spyropoulos on the left are both much better players than Pantos.

As for DM replacements, Makos of Panionios has been having a superb year and may be better long term than Tziolis.

As far as Otto having a s%&$t list, well, he didn't take Lybe to the EURO either. I think most people forget Lybe was on a blacklist as well along with Zikos and Georgatos.

[aekrossoponti]

Good Lord, I can't believe what I'm reading. Tasos Pantos on the Greek NT? We may as well call up Georgeas and Vyntra as well. :LOL:

well, vyntra is a regular in ottos squad and even georgeas has been nominated last year. at the moment he is injured. :blink:

what you say about lympe is true. otto ignored lympe for years and finally gave in. lympe paid it back big time in kazakstan. i personally believe if it wasn t for greek popular opinion constantly calling for lympe otto wouldnt have called him up.

the problem is that otto has been ignoring stoltidis performances (especially in the cl!!) for 5 years now. if we bear in mind people like konstantinidis of hertha and hannover misfame have had their share of caps this is absolutely horrendous. especially since we were desperate for a stoltidis type player in the wc qualifying with zagorakis more concerned selcting his wife.

makos is a very interesting player but he plays at panionios so otto probably has never heard of him.

[Kolokotronis]

Vyntra is not a starter. And Georgeas being called up is a joke. Neither should be on the side. When we allow our level of expectation to sink this low, we're in trouble.

The only reason Otto called Lybe is because Vryzas was just horrendous/declining, and in Otto's 4-4-2 system (when he plays it), a secondary withdrawn striker that come back to the ball and hold it up and/or distribute is absolutely vital. The only other striker in all of Greece with those qualities is Lybe. It really was a no brainer. I'm not sure public sentiment had much to do with it.

[aekrossoponti]

point is though that both of them were/are on the squad. in any case i am not making a point of taking pantos along. but its not as out of bounds either.

as for lympe it took otto nearly two years to call up lympe.vryzas was garbage ever since the euro and charisteas was plagued by injury. i will never forget how otto went to the ukraine with only one fit striker in vryzas, papadopoulos was injured, charisteas was also injured but had to play in the second half and of course did nothing. otto just refused to call up another striker . no lympe, no salpi. not even on the squad. and things went on like that for for nearly two years.

even the confed cup brought no lympe although lympe came of a spectacular season with aek. so you are right it was a no-brainer but it took otto nearly two years to surpass his stubborness.

stoltidis to replace zagorakis is another no-brainer and hasnt happened to date. in the confederations cup, we flew in zagorakis to play. he had serie a duty at the same time and he was playing some 5 matches in a week or something and flying between bologna and frankfurt to do so. why not give the guy a rest and try out stoltidis. no brainer but not to otto.

if turkey wouldnt have crushed us in karaiskaki we would probably still see no torosidis or gekas on the squad and start fyssas as leftback. omitting fyssas was a no brainer for every one of us since the euro04 but took otto some three years to discover.

i dont know what guides ottos thoughts. i am just sure that he doesnt know much about greek football nor follow the superleague. you may be right about lympes call up not being linked to public sentiment but to me it was very evident that every one was calling for him and we had basically lost the wc qualifying so otto decided to give lympe a shot.

[AEK-MTL]

can we get otto to do anything conventionally?

Question is, do we have the players to actually play a conventional formation? I mean, if you think about it, the squad is ridiculously limited. All of our forwards are basically center forwards through and through. Not really a wide player/winger among the bunch. So that basically eliminates a true 4-3-3. No left-sided midfielders/wingers (with Stelio on the way out, we'll have no true right wingers either). So that eliminates a classic 4-4-2 (with a right and left winger). The only formation that Greece seem to have the players for would be a 5-3-2. Unfortunately, our 5-3-2 is offensively-challenged to the extreme.

I know that realistically, you don't have to have a perfect-fit for the formation to work (we seem to do well with the 4-3-3) but I still find it kind of amusing that we seem to be missing so many key elements and yet still get the results. Borei o Germanos na min einai kai toso trelos!

[as5664]

can we get otto to do anything conventionally?

Question is, do we have the players to actually play a conventional formation? I mean, if you think about it, the squad is ridiculously limited. All of our forwards are basically center forwards through and through. Not really a wide player/winger among the bunch. So that basically eliminates a true 4-3-3. No left-sided midfielders/wingers (with Stelio on the way out, we'll have no true right wingers either). So that eliminates a classic 4-4-2 (with a right and left winger). The only formation that Greece seem to have the players for would be a 5-3-2. Unfortunately, our 5-3-2 is offensively-challenged to the extreme.

I know that realistically, you don't have to have a perfect-fit for the formation to work (we seem to do well with the 4-3-3) but I still find it kind of amusing that we seem to be missing so many key elements and yet still get the results. Borei o Germanos na min einai kai toso trelos!

No, he certainly doesn't do anything "conventially;" but I think that is the very reason why we are getting results. Like I have said before, Otto is an experienced and succesfull coach. There is no way he is making these decisions without reason. Personally, however, I think Otto is way ahead of the game.

Everything you guys are talking about, bottom line, is about symmetrical formations. A rigid application of method and tactics. But, more and more, I'm starting to understand Otto. I think Otto cares more about team chemistry and organization, and, built on top of that base, a scheme woven out of these players' individual talents and capabilities. That is why we have cfs as wide forwards (except Samars who I think is a wide forward) and no symmetry in our formations (i.e. left and right players). Most important to Otto is this chemistry and consistency.

Our style of play, bottom line, and I know you all hate this, is surviving the match and plunking in a goal here or there, mostly through set pieces. That is how we will play in Euro 2008, and that is what makes us a very gritty team (as the French coach described us). Otto's tactics are mercenary, and they are intended for results only, which are adapted for each match, and do not rely on "good football". I think this explains the illusion that many perceive that we are consistently playing our "A" game against weak and strong teams alike.

[mangas21]

the only "good football" is WINNING football...........

tactics, systems, strategy, playing to your strengths, exploiting weakness........Why? to WIN.......

things are based on relatives not absolutes.....

[Olympiakosthyra7]

i wondered the same thing about stoltidis i can assure you a great performance by stoltidi in the round of 16 and otto might take a glance at him you never know.