La Mendel
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Posts posted by La Mendel
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Samaras cant be more useful than Mavrias, Ninis, Mantalos or Athanasiadis? :lol:
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Why are those two coaches hopeless? Ranieri is a former Chelsea, Valencia, Juventus, Inter Milan, and Monaco coach and had a reputation of building and rebuilding squads. Markarian replaced Santos at Panathinaikos in 2002 because Santos took a team that placed itself among the 8 best teams in Europe and turned them into a side that wasn't even among the 8 best teams in Greece. Half of the Euro 2004 starting eleven played under Markarian and were better players for it. Karagounis insisted on Markarian's hire after Ranieri's firing and Greece plans to continue with Markarian. No doubt Markarian is old (he certainly he will be retire by the end of this campaign), but hopeless to manage us against these opponents for Euro 2016 qualifying? Greece can win each of their remaining qualifiers. It's a very realistic possibility.
Santos and Rehhagel never solved our deficiencies at left-back (LB), so there was always a major weak point in our system, and this has become a bigger point of concern now more than ever. Can you name a LB that can solve our problems in that area of the pitch? Remember, Holebas is now in Karagounis' bad book and he was hardly a better solution to our defensive woes in the position.
And if Gagatsis and the Greek FA had the money to hire Nevio Scala, the type of coach who is consistent with the decision that was made to hire someone like Ranieri, then they would have hired him. Instead they hired Rehhagel because he was cheaper.
To add insult to injury, the Greek FA ignored the recommendations of the Iordanescu. This included creating training grounds/facilities for the national academies and allowing the Greek league to begin a couple of weeks earlier. If Greece followed his heed, would we be in this position right now? Iordanescu is the man that oversaw our embarrassing Euro 2000 qualifying campaign. We couldn't beat Latvia in that campaign. Up until this campaign, Euro 2000 was our most disappointing qualifying campaign considering our qualification odds. The man Greece fired in 1999 has now returned as the coach of Romania. How the wheel of fortune turns...
Can you name any coaches like Rehhagel and Santos out there today who you think ought to coach Greece? More importantly, what will a Rehhagel or Santos type coach have done differently to get a rise out of central forwards like Mitroglou, Samaras, Salpingidis, Klaus, and Gekas? What would such a coach do to have provided added motivation to his players to be in tiptop shape and make themselves available for selection?
I can name one coach like Rehhagel and Santos: Dunga. He fielded 6 defenders against Venezuela in the recent Copa America in an almost failed attempt to defend a 2-0 lead. That 2-0 lead became 2-1 and Venezuela were then inches away from tying the match with a minute left to play. I repeat, Brazil played 6 defenders against Venezuela and nearly gave up a 2-0 lead because they allowed Venezuela to get back into the game. The same mindset allowed Paraguay to even the score in the quarter-finals and Brazil lost on penalties. Argentina, having learned their lessons after allowing Paraguay to draw 2-2 in the group stages after leading the match 2-0, trounced Paraguay in the semis 6-1. Paraguay were by some distance the worst team to have gotten to the knock-out stages at Copa America. Worse than Bolivia even.
Most importantly, how would our "defensive system" score goals? In our recently friendly against Poland we drew the match with a midfield containing Katsouranis and Tziolis. Poland were very unlucky not to have won, having been denied a chance that hit the bar. Greece had two shots, both from outside the box and only one on goal, none of which troubled the Polish defense.
(emphasis mine)
Can you name any players who can contribute to "our game" and ought to "be capped"?
Katsouranis possibly until 2016? Katsouranis was worse for wear by Euro 2012 and the red card against Japan was proof that he was the wrong player to build and rally around.
Salpingidis, Samaras, Torosidis and Katsouranis all played and have unimpressed in this disappointing period, yet you exalt them. Torosidis is the only name of that bunch who still starts for Greece, but he has clearly shown signs of physical decline. And he clearly is the leader of the team considering he was made captain. Salpingidis was recently named captain under Ranieri and he failed to live up to those expectations. By 2018, our next aim of qualification, Greece realistically needs someone else in each of their places in the starting eleven.
Hasn't that been the case for the past season? And once more only Torosidis can exclude himself from the list, but even he has played below his standards.
Gekas would be useful over whom? He's at best a 3rd to 5th string striker.
Vyntra plays as a RB and alternatively as a CB. He's always going to be a second choice to Torosidis and no way does he start over our other CBs. Moreover, Vyntra plays his RB role as a full-back (FB), he doesn't get forward well enough to support the attackers. We have many CBs who are better defenders than Vyntra. Since that's the case, why not just exclude him and call-up another CB instead?
Tziolis is still useful? In 2018 he won't be useful and the same must be said of most of the names you just mentioned. Besides, have you seen PAOK play in the last 6 months? Maybe back in November he could have been useful, but Ranieri, who had coached an out-of-shape Tziolis while at a second division Monaco, didn't seem keen on him and Tziolis' recent form would suggest he's not even worthy of a PAOK jersey (something that could be well said of almost every single PAOK player). PAOK have been absolutely shambolic.
Karagounis opted for Markari?n but he failed to fulfil expectations (till now). The absence of left-backs is a problem which is well-known to many not excellent NTs. Michel would have been the best option, then Leonardo Jardim, Valverde (he was asked when Bilbao struggled in the CL and on home soil but he answered to a newspaper he didnt want coach Greece), perhaps Bajevic. We could score goals with our former system, even if not so many as other fairly strong European teams (Croatia, Czech Rep. Russia etc. etc.), and at the end of the day we performed better than they. Players who work a lot and are defensive minded can contribute even if they arent world class players, they should be selected. This means (as for our midfielders and attackers) Maniatis should be played, then Tziolis, Samaras, Mitroglou, Salpingidis etc. etc. The Ninis type players (Fetfatzidis, Ninis, Mantalos, Fortounis etc.) who are mediocre against stronger sides and inconsistent arent so useful for us, they can be included in the squad (not all of them) but I wouldnt give them a place in the starting 11 if everybody is healthy but first of all we must return to the former system (key words: defending, counterattacks, set-pieces). Samaras should find a decent team of course, and should play regularly, perhaps he could return to Celtic, we need him in the NT, this is obvious after the FI games and the Hungary game and the loss against NI. When he was subbed in against Finland (in the 83th min) we looked a bit more vivid. PAOK was OK in the regular season but they F***ed up the playoff. "Absolutely shambolic" was the team you always wanted while bashing Santos and Rehhagel, the attacking-minded team with the useless and/or unexperienced young geniuses (Kone, Christodoulopoulos, Mavrias, Mantalos , Fetfatzidis, Tachtsidis, Ninis, Athanasiadis) and the "visionary" coach (Ranieri).
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With a Ranieri or Markarian type head coach, it is hopeless. We should get an experienced and outstanding trainer (like Rehhagel and Santos), who would resort to our former defensive system. Then the players who can contribute to our game should be capped. And we must have some leaders who were successful with NT and/or their clubs and could therefore be respected by younger players. (Such leaders were Zagorakis, Dellas, then Basinas, then Karagounis). Katsouranis could have been a sort of leader for a while (even if he would have been subbed in) after Karagounis' departure, but he wont play until 2018 (perhaps not even until 2016). So we have (still) Salpingidis (first goal ever at the WC, two goals at Euro 2012, decisive goal against Ukraine, goals for PAO and PAOK etc. etc.), Samaras (successful career abroad, a bunch of goals in the Champions League, goal and assist against Ivory Coast, goal against Germany etc.) and Torosidis (one of the best players in Greek SL, now plays for Roma, games in the CL, many good matches for the Ethniki, goal against Nigeria etc.), they should be in the squad unless they are injured or play downright bad or dont play at all. Other older players: Gekas, Tziolis, Vyntra can be useful, they know most of the NT players and each other well, but we can perhaps do without them.
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This year was a disaster, two incompetent coaches destroyed our great and efficient team.
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I hope he will, we need him in our national team, he is very experienced and have achieved a great deal.
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It would be an awful decision to play in Australia I think.
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Youre right, with Santos at the helm we wouldnt have been thrashed by these minnows and would surely qualify.
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Thats the stuff guys, we must go back to our successful system.
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He should play rather for a top club in a fairly good league (Portugal, Scotland, Netherlands, perhaps Turkey). Celtic was such a club. It would be a suicidal move for him to return to the Super League.
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I hope he will play for a team like Sporting or Celtic again. He could play then in the CL.
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I hope not. These youngsters suck.
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[bashing of Rehhagel and Karagounis - LM]
otto would have constructed a defense to close finland, unlike ranieri? ok, otto and greece x finland in finland. 5x1. ok.
ranieri 4 matches...ok, here's otto's first 4 matches - L-D-L-L. otto also had 1 friendly before the 5x1 finland match AND 4-5 friendlies before the 2 Ls to spain and ukraine.
what is the argument?
The 2001 team when Rehhagel took over was bad. He had to build a new team around key players like Zagorakis, implement a new tactics, etc. Ranieri took over a very good team (second round in 2012 and 2014) with efficient tactics and he changed it within two or three months into a bag of s%$#!.
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You can criticize Rehhagel or anybody for that matter, but then you shouldnt deliberately and constantly use incorrect facts and arguments (Rehhagel & Santos didnt care about the future, we played disconnected football, we were the laughing stock of the world, old and unusable footballers always were in the starting 11, Karagounis - not even Katsouranis - is a monster and a villain, outdated match tactics vs defence for Ranieris lost games - injuries! - and the indefensible production of the team, laudations of "talents" etc. etc.) as most of you does.
Papastathopoulos was in 2008 too young and inexperienced, but Im not sure of that, because he is a very capable football player and developed quickly, perhaps he could have been included in the squad. Tavlaridis could have been even better, he played then for Saint-Etienne, was in great form, he was overlooked by Rehhagel, unfortunately.
Ninis wouldnt have been of use, he was two (or for that matter, four) years later still mediocre.
Yes, at Euro 2008 we wernt successful (although I must add the referees have stolen the goal of Charisteas against Russia - we wouldnt have been out so quickly with a draw), otherwise the team wasnt booed by "the world" as you say but by incompetent English-speaking commentators and similar "professionals". Greece was abused (f. e.) before WC 2014, they announced we are garbage & will be out after the group stage etc. etc.
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Santos and Rehhagel probably would have made a better match tactics (defense + counterattacks + set-pieces). There always are some injured players, against Ivory Coast we soon lost Kone and Karnezis, Katsouranis wasnt available, Mitroglou was out of form after he was injured for long, Siovas was left out of the squad because of injury etc. etc. No, we didnt sit back against Finland in the second half, that was the problem, Finnish attacks could have been easily parried if we would have used our former tactics. In this case we would have won the match with that goal of Karelis. It was painful to watch that a lesser team Finland is now dominated us in the first ten minutes of the second half. If Santos or Rehhagel would have been in charge, I think Finland would have never equalized. Dunga wins most of the matches they play ("cf. with the "those tactics arent effective" cant), I think his tactics and overall approach are very good.
The extremely defensive style is my favorite brand of football. It is the most economical method, combined with dangerous counterattacks, because it cost less energy and yet keeps the enemy side on edge with the counterattacks.
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The point is we lack experience and we lack experience because we keep playing tired older guys in place of a younger options who clearly have major potential.
Rehhagel called up Giannakopoulos into the finals squad, a player who missed the net from 6 yards out against Turkey with the score at 1-2. He was an experienced player with nothing more to give Greece and was clearly past it. For all our experience, which was the only thing players like Giannakopoulos had to offer, we saw comical defending from Greece against Sweden on the second goal, Nikopolidis inexplicably ran out of his net for Russia's game winning goal, and Dellas embarrassingly slipped against Spain on their game-winning goal. Our players were too old and our coach's tactics were outrageously conservative.
Giannakopoulos wasnt in his prime then but he got only a couple of minutes at Euro 2008;
he missed the net against Turkey, and thats why he shouldnt been called up in the squad? (cf. "Rehhagel called up [...] a player who missed the net from 6 yards out") Everybody can miss, Messi missed great chances;
Nikopolidis was horrible vs Sweden and Russia;
Dellas was simply unlucky (as was for example Terry with that penalty in the CL final), he wasnt past it entirely (later, between 2010 and 2012 he played very well for AEK, just as Tavlaridis now for PAO);
there were players who were over 30, even so they were our best choices. Even the younger Salpingidis and Samaras wasnt so smart in 2008, Ninis, Mitroglou and Papastathopoulos was still unexperienced, who should have been played by Rehhagel instead of Dellas, Basinas, Karagounis and the likes?;
after our "outrageously conservative" head coaches we had a coach who "had a vision" and "cared about the future" (as you said about the idiotic tinkerman on the old forum), talented youngsters, less conservative tactics, with disastrous results.
The whole post could be dismantled so, some valid points and a lot of eloquently presented nonsense.
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Sifakis made a complete mess of the free-kick (before the third German goal). Unfortunately he came out too late and then missed the ball. The main responsibility lies with him and not with Papadopoulos (or Maniatis).
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Uninteresting harangues, endless bashing of great players and coaches (see for example above that about Rehhagel), baseless laudations of players who almost never excelled, startling "explanations" (tries to pin the third German goal on Maniatis) etc. etc. I can see your preference for him.
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Most of his posts are bullshit you know.
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Surely Ninis couldn't have been any worse than Giannakopoulos at Euro 2008 and if we had a coach who was at all concerned with the future, we might have seen Ninis, not Patsazoglou, against South Korea.
Giannakopoulos practically didnt play at all at Euro 2008. We have seen Ninis against Argentina, he didnt show much (nor did he two years later).
Samaris plays in the UCL for Benfica and Tachtsidis plays regularly in the very defensive minded Italian league. Tachtsidis is a bigger, stronger player than Tziolis. Samaris is a quicker, bigger player than Maniatis. They are very similar to the counterparts you have recommended instead, except they are younger and are both on upwards trajectories.
Perhaps Tachtsidis is similar to Tziolis, Maniatis is a better player than Samaris and Tachtsidis.
It makes a lot of sense to close out the midfield three with one of these players. Against superior sides, they would probably be better suited as options off the bench and a more defensive player would be preferable.
A Katsouranis type player would have been preferable against Faroe Islands, too. To be fair, I must add I think there were problems with our match tactics too.
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Petsos can be useful but I have the feeling he could be just another (and perhaps lesser) version of Tachtsidis. However, even so he could be of some use for us. Our problem is quite another matter: our tactics should be based on defending (and counterattacks). Our best players are probably our central defenders (Manolas, Papastathopoulos, K. Papadopoulos etc.), we have real depth on the team only at central defense (we have 3-4 outstanding centre backs, and another 5-6 decent players - Siovas, Moras, Vyntra, Avraam, Tavlaridis, Malezas). That means, we should find midfielders and attackers who can help this defensive strategy, midfielders who arent afraid of doing the dirty work and are able to intercept passes, attackers who track back regularly and perform a role in our defending as well (it is good if they are somewhat physical). Players like Maniatis or even Tziolis are therefore of more use in our national team than the likes of Ninis, Mantalos, Kolovos, Fetfatzidis, Fountas or Fortounis. If the latter midfielders were outstanding, it would be rewarding to give them more playing time than they got under Santos or Rehhagel, but they arent. I think they arent so solid as for example Samaras or Katsouranis, none of them had 3-4 excellent matches in a row (compare the production of Fortounis vs Poland at Euro 2012 in the ~25 minutes he got, and his performance some days later against the Czech Republic - he wasnt so threatening then although he was in the starting eleven and was subbed out only in the 70th minute). Our success depends, to a large extent, on the successful defense, and that means players like Samaras, Salpingidis or even Kone can be more dangerous weapons in our attacking arsenal because they can be usable while defending. Of course this doesnt rule every less physical attacking midfielder and/or attacker out, but they must be really good to secure a place in the starting eleven. For example Stelios Giannakopoulos wasnt so tall and strong as Charisteas or even Salpingidis, but he excelled in the Champions League while playing for Olympiakos and then in the Premier League, allegedly more physical championship than most of the top tiers in Europe, he was undoubtedly our most successful player in the first tier in England. Greek footballers of this type should be as good as he was and then it would make sense to have them on the pitch.
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And even they were better than the alternatives against FI.
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Especially talented midfielders?
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He hadnt a good season but he can do better than that, in the 2013-14 season he played rather well as far as I remember. I would be good if he would regularly play for some Serie A team.
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The following conclusions can be drawn:
1. We must go back to our "Defending First" system.
2. We must find (in fact, in some of the cases recall) players who can usefully contribute to our production, also players who work hard and arent afraid of struggling and fighting. I mean players like Maniatis, K. Papadopoulos, Samaras, Tzavellas, Tziolis, and possibly Katsouranis and Salpingidis.
3. The younger and "talented" players can be used too, but only as a cog in this system, I mean they can undoubtedly perform certain roles in our team (we have seen that in the World Cup - for example Kone was arguably our best midfielder then, Samaris scored against Ivory Coast etc. etc.), but now they cant play first fiddle.
4. We should seek wingers who can play a part in our defending too. Santos gave in fact much chances to Ninis (Euro 2012...), but he couldnt perform well (he was among our worst performers in the first half against Poland/Germany). Fetfatzidis too was used by Santos, and he had good performances (two goals against Malta in 2011, production against Canada, his performance against Portugal just before the World Cup), but he couldnt manage to play well three or more times in a row. Eventually Salpingidis got his place back. We should find players like him and Samaras (the latter is only 30) or recall Samaras. These new guys who we say lately playing on the wings (Kolovos Fountas Gianniotas) are players like Fetfatzidis or Fortounis.
5. We should get a coach like Michel.
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in Greek National Teams
Posted
You have written earlier:
Yet you want Holebas or especially Stafylidis as left-back now.
1-0 wins: we won under Santos many matches with one goal. We can win easily with one goal, if we have a good strategy & useful players.
Error of Katsouranis against Hungary: I dont know what you mean, but I remember that against Poland he was our best performer and perhaps the best player on the pitch. If Kolovos would have been started by Markarian as was originally planned, probably we would have lose the match.
Bielsa: one of the stock answers. Why do you want especially him? He is a good trainer, but he never worked in Greece and he isnt capable of wonders (he isnt exactly a Mourinho). So why him? Chile looked for example better under Sampaoli (2014 WC, 2015 Copa Am?rica) than under Bielsa.
"We're a better team when players like Salpingidis and Maniatis are on the bench and when Kyriakos and Fetfatzidis are on the pitch[.]" We have seen in the last 10-12 months, that we arent better without Salpingidis or Maniatis. In fact, for the most part the team was horrible without the likes of Karagounis, Katsouranis, Samaras, Salpingidis, Maniatis (some of them played a couple of minutes, even under Ranieri, but more often than not they wernt on the pitch) and most of the young players you wanted proved themselves to be s%$#!.
Samaras: Karelis should have been subbed out in the 60th minute or so, after that he was practically invisible. Yes he scored a goal, and - unlike most of the youngsters - he shows now some promise. The last two sentences are farcical. Samaras cant be more useful than the likes of Mavrias, Mantalos, Kolovos, Athanasiadis? Rubbish.